Information Theory Refutation of God

[frish]

I, Frish, cannot take credit for these thoughts, they came from my friend Thinkenstein.
He's a hermit who lives on the top of a rainforested mountain in Puerto Rico.
And, he's an inventor, musician, plumber, carpenter, farmer, machine tool user, architect, sculptor, engineer, mason, etc. etc. etc.
Here's his story INDEX
and here: Thinkenstein
And one of my stories showing off his geodesic dome the built over the shed he lived in without running water or electricity and 1/2 mile from water, down the hill and back up the next...for 8 years!
Second Annual Pilgrimage to Thinkenstein's Casa and Cave July 2011

Please do comment, almost every word here is Thinks, I just agree wholeheartedly.
(As I re-read this, I've put in some comments, and reordered two lines. Did not change one word Thinkenstein shared with me, in 2005.)
_______

NO INTELLIGENT CREATOR -- intro

There is much warfare among men, and one of the main polarizing forces found in many conflicts is religion. The line of reasoning will help lead us toward world peace by eliminating this polarizing force. [Thinkenstein has good motivations, but is unrealistic, as we all know, the faithful will continue to be faithful, regardless of logic or argument presented...] I realize that you, as a religious person, will resist changing your beliefs, but please give this some thought. Sooner or later this idea is something that all religions will have to confront. Discuss it among your friends. It is not necessary to believe in a god to lead a moral life. [It's a little early in the argument to introduce that particular fact.]

Information needs a vehicle:

All intelligent beings process information and are capable of using memory, which is the storage of information for future access. All information is encoded on a physical vehicle of either matter or energy. [Two sentencesnipped and placed below, it was the conclusion, a little early]

An example of information would be a story that is encoded in written words on the pages of a book. The book is the vehicle for the information and has a tangible physical presence. The information does not. You can not see or touch the story. Even though information does not have a tangible physical presence, it can influence the physical world. Religious beliefs, for example, can influence how we behave, and are responsible for the effects of that behavior. Crusades and jihads are fought for such beliefs.

Information can be encoded for transmission on a traveling vehicle such as light or radio waves, or on waves such as sound waves that travel through water or air. For information to be accessible to a user at a later time, however, the vehicle can not be traveling faster than the user is. To permit memory, the physical vehicle has to be able to hold a coded pattern and stay where the user can find it later.

For all practical purposes, the solid state of matter is the only state of matter that meets the prerequisites for memory. It can hold a pattern that stores information, and it does not travel away from the user. Some examples of memory storage vehicles would be a book, a brain, a computer CD, or DNA that encodes genetic information. All of these use the solid state of matter.

Except for sound waves which can travel through them, liquids and gasses are not suitable vehicles for encoding information. Unlike solids, their molecules are in random motion. Any pattern encoded on them is lost when their molecules move. A message in alphabet soup is lost when the soup is stirred.

Information is not encoded in patterns on the entire physical universe. Very few physical objects are actually encoded with information. A rock, for example, is not encoded with information, nor is a cloud.

Potential Information:

Some people argue that all matter “has” information, which is whatever we observe about the physical world around us. I would say that it is only potential information, and it is our brains that create the actual information about such things. For example, to say that an object has a temperature, 98 degrees Fahrenheit, which qualifies as information about the object, we have to realize that numbers, degrees, and the Fahrenheit scale are all inventions of man, as is the more abstract concept of temperature. That information was not transmitted to us from the object. We created it.

Everything in the universe is related, if in no other way than by distance. There are an infinite number of information statements that can be said about any object in regard to its distance from an infinite number of points in space, but that information is not stored on the object, or transmitted to us from the object. Our brains create that information about the object.

Only encoded information qualifies as information and it did not exist in the physical universe before the beginning of life. Something similar to DNA was probably the first sign of life and also the first sign of encoded information. [To describe it simply, life is self replicating molecules, it is organized and contains information to replicate itself.] As life evolved and got more complex, brains eventually evolved, which allowed new kinds of information to be stored in neuron network patterns. The human brain then created writing and other kinds of code, which have blossomed into this information age.

There are many religions, and many conflicting beliefs among them. If there is an objective truth, no more than one of them can be 100% correct, and all of them can be wrong. The nature of information shows how no intelligent god could have created the universe. The universe is prerequisite to intelligence..

[from the snipped section above]
If God created the physical world, which is prerequisite for the use of information, then he could not have used information and been intelligent when he created it.
If God is intelligent, he did not create the physical universe, since the physical universe is a prerequisite for intelligence.

 

[-57]

I, Frish, cannot take credit for these thoughts, they came from my friend Thinkenstein.
He's a hermit who lives on the top of a rainforested mountain in Puerto Rico.
And, he's an inventor, musician, plumber, carpenter, farmer, machine tool user, architect, sculptor, engineer, mason, etc. etc. etc.
Here's his story INDEX
and here: Thinkenstein
And one of my stories showing off his geodesic dome the built over the shed he lived in without running water or electricity and 1/2 mile from water, down the hill and back up the next...for 8 years!
Second Annual Pilgrimage to Thinkenstein's Casa and Cave July 2011

Please do comment, almost every word here is Thinks, I just agree wholeheartedly.
(As I re-read this, I've put in some comments, and reordered two lines. Did not change one word Thinkenstein shared with me, in 2005.)
_______

NO INTELLIGENT CREATOR -- intro

There is much warfare among men, and one of the main polarizing forces found in many conflicts is religion. The line of reasoning will help lead us toward world peace by eliminating this polarizing force. [Thinkenstein has good motivations, but is unrealistic, as we all know, the faithful will continue to be faithful, regardless of logic or argument presented...] I realize that you, as a religious person, will resist changing your beliefs, but please give this some thought. Sooner or later this idea is something that all religions will have to confront. Discuss it among your friends. It is not necessary to believe in a god to lead a moral life. [It's a little early in the argument to introduce that particular fact.]

Information needs a vehicle:

All intelligent beings process information and are capable of using memory, which is the storage of information for future access. All information is encoded on a physical vehicle of either matter or energy. [Two sentencesnipped and placed below, it was the conclusion, a little early]

An example of information would be a story that is encoded in written words on the pages of a book. The book is the vehicle for the information and has a tangible physical presence. The information does not. You can not see or touch the story. Even though information does not have a tangible physical presence, it can influence the physical world. Religious beliefs, for example, can influence how we behave, and are responsible for the effects of that behavior. Crusades and jihads are fought for such beliefs.

Information can be encoded for transmission on a traveling vehicle such as light or radio waves, or on waves such as sound waves that travel through water or air. For information to be accessible to a user at a later time, however, the vehicle can not be traveling faster than the user is. To permit memory, the physical vehicle has to be able to hold a coded pattern and stay where the user can find it later.

For all practical purposes, the solid state of matter is the only state of matter that meets the prerequisites for memory. It can hold a pattern that stores information, and it does not travel away from the user. Some examples of memory storage vehicles would be a book, a brain, a computer CD, or DNA that encodes genetic information. All of these use the solid state of matter.

Except for sound waves which can travel through them, liquids and gasses are not suitable vehicles for encoding information. Unlike solids, their molecules are in random motion. Any pattern encoded on them is lost when their molecules move. A message in alphabet soup is lost when the soup is stirred.

Information is not encoded in patterns on the entire physical universe. Very few physical objects are actually encoded with information. A rock, for example, is not encoded with information, nor is a cloud.

Potential Information:

Some people argue that all matter “has” information, which is whatever we observe about the physical world around us. I would say that it is only potential information, and it is our brains that create the actual information about such things. For example, to say that an object has a temperature, 98 degrees Fahrenheit, which qualifies as information about the object, we have to realize that numbers, degrees, and the Fahrenheit scale are all inventions of man, as is the more abstract concept of temperature. That information was not transmitted to us from the object. We created it.

Everything in the universe is related, if in no other way than by distance. There are an infinite number of information statements that can be said about any object in regard to its distance from an infinite number of points in space, but that information is not stored on the object, or transmitted to us from the object. Our brains create that information about the object.

Only encoded information qualifies as information and it did not exist in the physical universe before the beginning of life. Something similar to DNA was probably the first sign of life and also the first sign of encoded information. [To describe it simply, life is self replicating molecules, it is organized and contains information to replicate itself.] As life evolved and got more complex, brains eventually evolved, which allowed new kinds of information to be stored in neuron network patterns. The human brain then created writing and other kinds of code, which have blossomed into this information age.

There are many religions, and many conflicting beliefs among them. If there is an objective truth, no more than one of them can be 100% correct, and all of them can be wrong. The nature of information shows how no intelligent god could have created the universe. The universe is prerequisite to intelligence..

[from the snipped section above]
If God created the physical world, which is prerequisite for the use of information, then he could not have used information and been intelligent when he created it.
If God is intelligent, he did not create the physical universe, since the physical universe is a prerequisite for intelligence.

Pretty much a bunch of nonsense to me. You failed to even begin to explain how the DNA code could have had the ability to evolve the extremely sophisticated information to form something such as the motor protein and the tubules it walks on.

All you did was make an assumption and insert it into your post when you said... "As life evolved and got more complex"
You assumed a code writer wasn't required to create the information in the DNA that codes for life....failing to explain how a random process has the ability to add information to a code...or even create such a code as DNA in the first place.

 

[PloverWing]

All information is encoded on a physical vehicle of either matter or energy.

I am not willing to take this as an axiom. Some of the kinds of information that come first to mind are software, either programs for conventional electronic computers or "programs" for abstract computational models like Turing Machines. While both of these can be encoded physically -- written on paper, stored electronically, etc. -- the information is independent of the particular physical medium. It's the same program whether it's written on paper or stored on a flash drive or simply held in my mind.

Since I'm a being of matter, then of course any way that I encounter this information involves the use of matter, even if it's only my own brain's neurons. But I think that's a property of me, not a property of the information itself.

Thus, I am not willing to take the quoted sentence as an axiom. If possible, please reconstruct your argument without using this axiom.

 

[Silmarien]

All that this proves is that God is not intelligent in the same way that human beings are intelligent, which shoves you right into apophatic theology and only challenges the way people think about God. Which is good, since overly anthropomorphic conceptions of the divine are problematic whether you're a theist or an atheist.

 

[frish]

Pretty much a bunch of nonsense to me. You failed to even begin to explain how the DNA code could have had the ability to evolve the extremely sophisticated information to form something such as the motor protein and the tubules it walks on.

All you did was make an assumption and insert it into your post when you said... "As life evolved and got more complex"
You assumed a code writer wasn't required to create the information in the DNA that codes for life....failing to explain how a random process has the ability to add information to a code...or even create such a code as DNA in the first place.

View attachment 193091

Dear -57, I'm surprised at your objection, isn't it obvious that life has evolved here on Earth?
What have you heard differently, science wise I mean...Evolution is well accepted as the way ecology works.

Hope you are as interested in knowing the truth as you were interested in commenting.

You see complexity around us now, and wish to understand how we got here from what was.
It isn't just the complexity, it's how everything "WORKS" for we humans.
- We have water chemistry on Earth, so lots of things can react chemically.
- The water part means we're just the right distance from the Sun, closer and it would be steamy, further it could be icey
- The Van Allen belts (Earth's Magneto sphere) saves our butts from Solar Wind, the particles and the direct solar radiation,
- There are seasons, since the Earth is tilted, and you know the rest...

In fact, these attributes of the Environment as we find it today, precisely illustrates how Evolution has brought ALL LIFE to this stage.

Everything alive today is the BEST SUITED for the Environment as it is NOW.

Everything else has been ground up by Evolution, we're the leftovers.

You and I both are the best adapted, congrats1
If you have kids, then YOU ARE THE "MISSING LINK"(!), of the next generation.
I don't have kids, it's immoral. (Different discussion.)

Now, perhaps I can help you understand how life began, and how evolution has operated since then, resulting in what we see (see above discussion about THE ENVIRONMENT).

All of the necessary chemistry to have life (abiogenesis) initiate was here when the Solar System and eventually Earth formed. (Oh, I'm of a mind that whatever the BIG BANG was, it was when time and space begin, there was no 'before' the Big Bang. This is the point of the post from Thinkenstein, how did intelligence exist BEFORE there was space, and especially Before Matter, since there was no WHERE, for thoughts to form upon...).

Here are just a couple of science articles, hope you aren't prohibited from reading such things.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/03/researchers-may-have-solved-origin-life-conundrum
" That suggests a single set of reactions could have given rise to most of life’s building blocks simultaneously."
Okay, nobody knows exactly how just yet...not denying it, but there are plausible hypotheses backed up with experimental evidence, that I'm certain we'll have the chemistry worked out.

My favorite...
The Origin of Life » American Scientist
This is a fairly easy read, here are two choice paragraphs.

" As we see it, the early steps on the way to life are an inevitable, incremental result of the operation of the laws of chemistry and physics operating under the conditions that existed on the early Earth, a result that can be understood in terms of known (or at least knowable) laws of nature. As such, the early stages in the emergence of life are no more surprising, no more accidental, than water flowing downhill."

Selection Begins
"We note that there is a fundamental difference between the way chemical reaction systems could have operated before the appearance of the first self-replicating molecules and the way they operate now that self-replicating systems have developed. In the beginning, the only potential source of order would have been networks of chemical reactions operating according to the laws of chemistry and physics. After molecules appeared that could replicate more or less independently, such as RNA, however, evolution could have proceeded according to the rules of natural selection, with the success of subsequent generations dependent on adaptive properties."

So, as is the case with science, it is a work in process.
There is absolutely NO reason to think they won't figure it out.

Evolution is about populations of life and how they survive their environment.
If the environment allows for it, a population gets to another generation.
Other populations, facing whatever in their environment, didn't/couldn't survive - went extinct.

What we see in the world, the perfect fit and the complexity is PRECISELY what we'd expect, thanks to Evolution.

Part of getting through whatever the environment throws at a population, includes diseases, parasites, poison, bad weather, and, initially, back when life (SELF REPLICATING MOLECULES) just began, there were other strands of life, that wanted to dismantle your population, to consume it as their own.

Evolution works on human time scales, BTW. Did you get a flu shot last year? This year? Next?

How about bird beaks in the Galapagos?
Peter and Rosemary Grant - Wikipedia
"Peter and Rosemary Grant are distinguished for their remarkable long-term studies demonstrating evolution in action in Galápagos finches. They have demonstrated how very rapid changes in body and beak size in response to changes in the food supply are driven by natural selection. They have also elucidated the mechanisms by which new species arise and how genetic diversity is maintained in natural populations. The work of the Grants has had a seminal influence in the fields of population biology, evolution, and ecology."

-57, if you can imagine when life first formed, it replicated, a lot, and then a mutation happened, and suddenly genetic wars break out. That battle continues today, and the complexity you note (tubules, etc.) is exactly the result of life having formed here on Earth, evolving through chemistry, physics and radiation, it couldn't have done otherwise.

What explanation is truly more 'grounded'?

Life started here, since it not only could, since it was inevitable, and, here we are.

A higher power created life.

In My Opinion, my observation registers as plausible, compared to what you propose.

Thanks for your comments! Reality is actually a whole LOT simpler than you suspect.

The Purpose Of Life: Life's purpose (not human life per se) is to digest Planet Earth. Use up all sources of energy and replicate life's molecules, until the Sun explodes.

Each species of life has this mission, including human life: Eat, and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], to support other life forms.

That's it. The reason for human life is to eat and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] so other life forms can continue to consume Planet Earth. Easy Peasy!

Many people weigh their own lives, as those of others, as 'accomplishments', or 'good deeds'. Most of us do good deeds, most of the time, since our DNA includes the "golden rule".
Everyone says it's better to give than receive, regardless of how good it is to receive (as well).

Accomplishments are Culturally Based, and basically meaning free long term, although belonging to groups is also a human attribute, so being 'in with the in crowd' is always a pleasure.

Long term, eating and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ting will have the most impact.

 

[frish]

I am not willing to take this as an axiom. Some of the kinds of information that come first to mind are software, either programs for conventional electronic computers or "programs" for abstract computational models like Turing Machines. While both of these can be encoded physically -- written on paper, stored electronically, etc. -- the information is independent of the particular physical medium. It's the same program whether it's written on paper or stored on a flash drive or simply held in my mind.

Since I'm a being of matter, then of course any way that I encounter this information involves the use of matter, even if it's only my own brain's neurons. But I think that's a property of me, not a property of the information itself.

Thus, I am not willing to take the quoted sentence as an axiom. If possible, please reconstruct your argument without using this axiom.

Everything you mentioned requires a physical substrate for information to exist. From paper to flash drive to mind, Software is electronic bits, as is digital/analog data, Turing machines are software running on hardware.

"the information is independent of the particular physical medium."
Perhaps here's where we can uncover a mis-conception.
Information is DEPENDENT on a physical medium.
The same information can be created in many forms, but it still requires a physical substrate.

Or, what am I missing? (Nothing you mentioned negated the axiom...).

 

[frish]

All that this proves is that God is not intelligent in the same way that human beings are intelligent, which shoves you right into apophatic theology and only challenges the way people think about God. Which is good, since overly anthropomorphic conceptions of the divine are problematic whether you're a theist or an atheist.

Hope you feel better anyway, glad to have helped in my own small way.

I'm nothing like apophatic, since I don't negate god. God can't exist. Nothing to negate.

 

[-57]

Dear -57, I'm surprised at your objection, isn't it obvious that life has evolved here on Earth?
What have you heard differently, science wise I mean...Evolution is well accepted as the way ecology works.

Hope you are as interested in knowing the truth as you were interested in commenting.

You see complexity around us now, and wish to understand how we got here from what was.
It isn't just the complexity, it's how everything "WORKS" for we humans.
- We have water chemistry on Earth, so lots of things can react chemically.
- The water part means we're just the right distance from the Sun, closer and it would be steamy, further it could be icey
- The Van Allen belts (Earth's Magneto sphere) saves our butts from Solar Wind, the particles and the direct solar radiation,
- There are seasons, since the Earth is tilted, and you know the rest...

In fact, these attributes of the Environment as we find it today, precisely illustrates how Evolution has brought ALL LIFE to this stage.

Everything alive today is the BEST SUITED for the Environment as it is NOW.

Everything else has been ground up by Evolution, we're the leftovers.

You and I both are the best adapted, congrats1
If you have kids, then YOU ARE THE "MISSING LINK"(!), of the next generation.
I don't have kids, it's immoral. (Different discussion.)

Now, perhaps I can help you understand how life began, and how evolution has operated since then, resulting in what we see (see above discussion about THE ENVIRONMENT).

All of the necessary chemistry to have life (abiogenesis) initiate was here when the Solar System and eventually Earth formed. (Oh, I'm of a mind that whatever the BIG BANG was, it was when time and space begin, there was no 'before' the Big Bang. This is the point of the post from Thinkenstein, how did intelligence exist BEFORE there was space, and especially Before Matter, since there was no WHERE, for thoughts to form upon...).

Here are just a couple of science articles, hope you aren't prohibited from reading such things.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/03/researchers-may-have-solved-origin-life-conundrum
" That suggests a single set of reactions could have given rise to most of life’s building blocks simultaneously."
Okay, nobody knows exactly how just yet...not denying it, but there are plausible hypotheses backed up with experimental evidence, that I'm certain we'll have the chemistry worked out.

My favorite...
The Origin of Life » American Scientist
This is a fairly easy read, here are two choice paragraphs.

" As we see it, the early steps on the way to life are an inevitable, incremental result of the operation of the laws of chemistry and physics operating under the conditions that existed on the early Earth, a result that can be understood in terms of known (or at least knowable) laws of nature. As such, the early stages in the emergence of life are no more surprising, no more accidental, than water flowing downhill."

Selection Begins
"We note that there is a fundamental difference between the way chemical reaction systems could have operated before the appearance of the first self-replicating molecules and the way they operate now that self-replicating systems have developed. In the beginning, the only potential source of order would have been networks of chemical reactions operating according to the laws of chemistry and physics. After molecules appeared that could replicate more or less independently, such as RNA, however, evolution could have proceeded according to the rules of natural selection, with the success of subsequent generations dependent on adaptive properties."

So, as is the case with science, it is a work in process.
There is absolutely NO reason to think they won't figure it out.

Evolution is about populations of life and how they survive their environment.
If the environment allows for it, a population gets to another generation.
Other populations, facing whatever in their environment, didn't/couldn't survive - went extinct.

What we see in the world, the perfect fit and the complexity is PRECISELY what we'd expect, thanks to Evolution.

Part of getting through whatever the environment throws at a population, includes diseases, parasites, poison, bad weather, and, initially, back when life (SELF REPLICATING MOLECULES) just began, there were other strands of life, that wanted to dismantle your population, to consume it as their own.

Evolution works on human time scales, BTW. Did you get a flu shot last year? This year? Next?

How about bird beaks in the Galapagos?
Peter and Rosemary Grant - Wikipedia
"Peter and Rosemary Grant are distinguished for their remarkable long-term studies demonstrating evolution in action in Galápagos finches. They have demonstrated how very rapid changes in body and beak size in response to changes in the food supply are driven by natural selection. They have also elucidated the mechanisms by which new species arise and how genetic diversity is maintained in natural populations. The work of the Grants has had a seminal influence in the fields of population biology, evolution, and ecology."

-57, if you can imagine when life first formed, it replicated, a lot, and then a mutation happened, and suddenly genetic wars break out. That battle continues today, and the complexity you note (tubules, etc.) is exactly the result of life having formed here on Earth, evolving through chemistry, physics and radiation, it couldn't have done otherwise.

What explanation is truly more 'grounded'?

Life started here, since it not only could, since it was inevitable, and, here we are.

A higher power created life.

In My Opinion, my observation registers as plausible, compared to what you propose.

Thanks for your comments! Reality is actually a whole LOT simpler than you suspect.

The Purpose Of Life: Life's purpose (not human life per se) is to digest Planet Earth. Use up all sources of energy and replicate life's molecules, until the Sun explodes.

Each species of life has this mission, including human life: Eat, and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], to support other life forms.

That's it. The reason for human life is to eat and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] so other life forms can continue to consume Planet Earth. Easy Peasy!

Many people weigh their own lives, as those of others, as 'accomplishments', or 'good deeds'. Most of us do good deeds, most of the time, since our DNA includes the "golden rule".
Everyone says it's better to give than receive, regardless of how good it is to receive (as well).

Accomplishments are Culturally Based, and basically meaning free long term, although belonging to groups is also a human attribute, so being 'in with the in crowd' is always a pleasure.

Long term, eating and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ting will have the most impact.

WOW!!! That was one of the longest non-answers I've seen in a while. You failed to explain how such complexity could have evolved.

Here's a short 3 1/2 min long video that presents one part of what happens in a cell. Hope you aren't prohibited from watching such videos.

Lets talk about the finch for a bit....You do know the information to make the bigger beaks already existed? There wasn't the need for a single mutation to occur and change the size. What you gave was an example of low level micro-evolution. There was no macro-evolutionism involved. The beak remained a beak as well with the finch..it too remained a fine.

I know you won't be able to answer the questions concerning the organelle..but I atleast hop you were allowed to watch the video and get a slight more understanding of how sophisticated and complicated life is on the cell level of life.

Here's the first instance of still soft dinosaur dissue being discovered presented by the Smithsonian.
Here's the latest find of soft dinosaur tissue presented by CNN.

How does soft dinosaur tissue survive for over 65+ MY's? Seems like your geological time scale has been ruffled.


In your reply you also said as a side comment "(Oh, I'm of a mind that whatever the BIG BANG was, it was when time and space begin, there was no 'before' the Big Bang. This is the point of the post from Thinkenstein, how did intelligence exist BEFORE there was space, and especially Before Matter, since there was no WHERE, for thoughts to form upon...)"

Where did the stuff of the Big Bang come from and how did all the stuff of the universe fit into a singularity smaller than a particle? We know the stuff of the Big Bank can't self create itself from nothing. There is an obvious need for a creator that always existed...always was and never wasn't....or there would be nothing here today.

So, now I have to ask....
What explanation is truly more 'grounded'?

Life started here, since it not only could, since it was inevitable, and, here we are.

A higher power created life.

I think you'll realize a higher power created life.

 

[frish]

WOW!!! That was one of the longest non-answers I've seen in a while. You failed to explain how such complexity could have evolved.

Here's a short 3 1/2 min long video that presents one part of what happens in a cell. Hope you aren't prohibited from watching such videos.

Lets talk about the finch for a bit....You do know the information to make the bigger beaks already existed? There wasn't the need for a single mutation to occur and change the size. What you gave was an example of low level micro-evolution. There was no macro-evolutionism involved. The beak remained a beak as well with the finch..it too remained a fine.

I know you won't be able to answer the questions concerning the organelle..but I atleast hop you were allowed to watch the video and get a slight more understanding of how sophisticated and complicated life is on the cell level of life.

Here's the first instance of still soft dinosaur dissue being discovered presented by the Smithsonian.
Here's the latest find of soft dinosaur tissue presented by CNN.

How does soft dinosaur tissue survive for over 65+ MY's? Seems like your geological time scale has been ruffled.


In your reply you also said as a side comment "(Oh, I'm of a mind that whatever the BIG BANG was, it was when time and space begin, there was no 'before' the Big Bang. This is the point of the post from Thinkenstein, how did intelligence exist BEFORE there was space, and especially Before Matter, since there was no WHERE, for thoughts to form upon...)"

Where did the stuff of the Big Bang come from and how did all the stuff of the universe fit into a singularity smaller than a particle? We know the stuff of the Big Bank can't self create itself from nothing. There is an obvious need for a creator that always existed...always was and never wasn't....or there would be nothing here today.

So, now I have to ask....
What explanation is truly more 'grounded'?

Life started here, since it not only could, since it was inevitable, and, here we are.

A higher power created life.

I think you'll realize a higher power created life.

Just because humans are conceived, grow and die, doesn't mean the Universe works that way.

The big bang came from nothing, there was nothing from which it emerged.
Particles are appearing and disappearing all the time in the universe.

Evolution created the differentiation in species we see today, and, the complexity to which you point is Far Less complex than evolution at a cellular level.

Just because it's complex doesn't mean it didn't evolve this way.

Micro/Macro evolution? So, what's a virus doing? LOL, why do you 'fight' the idea that speciation can occur, given the evidence of species, and extinctions?

Why is a timeline off because they found soft tissue? You said 65,000,000 years, why would that be in dispute because YOU don't think it could happen?

Best non-answer I can share, glad you are happy with your worldview.

 

[frish]

Here's a short 3 1/2 min long video that presents one part of what happens in a cell. Hope you aren't prohibited from watching such videos.

Nice vid. Yep, that's chemistry, it all happens AUTOMATICALLY, just like the video shows. No need for intelligent hands...he shows the whole process.

Just because HE doesn't know the steps from origin of life (under an entirely different environment) doesn't mean it didn't happen, just the way the articles I shared suggest.

3.5 billion years is a really long time. Things have plenty of that time to get complicated.

 

[-57]

Just because humans are conceived, grow and die, doesn't mean the Universe works that way.

The big bang came from nothing, there was nothing from which it emerged.
Particles are appearing and disappearing all the time in the universe.

Evolution created the differentiation in species we see today, and, the complexity to which you point is Far Less complex than evolution at a cellular level.

Just because it's complex doesn't mean it didn't evolve this way.

Micro/Macro evolution? So, what's a virus doing? LOL, why do you 'fight' the idea that speciation can occur, given the evidence of species, and extinctions?

Why is a timeline off because they found soft tissue? You said 65,000,000 years, why would that be in dispute because YOU don't think it could happen?

Best non-answer I can share, glad you are happy with your worldview.

You present such an OP...then you tell us
"The big bang came from nothing, there was nothing from which it emerged.
Particles are appearing and disappearing all the time in the universe."

From nothing there is the ability to have something emerge on its own?

You even posted "Just because it's complex doesn't mean it didn't evolve this way."
Evolutionism dosen't have the ability to evolve such complexity. Did you watch the short video?

 

[-57]

Nice vid. Yep, that's chemistry, it all happens AUTOMATICALLY, just like the video shows. No need for intelligent hands...he shows the whole process.

Just because HE doesn't know the steps from origin of life (under an entirely different environment) doesn't mean it didn't happen, just the way the articles I shared suggest.

3.5 billion years is a really long time. Things have plenty of that time to get complicated.

So, it all happened automatically?

OK, you got me. It's April Fools Day. Good one.

 

[Zatek]

I fail to see how this disproves God. You say information isn't physical, which I agree with, then argue that God can't be the origin of the information in DNA because he isn't physical? How does that make any sense?

As you said, information requires thought to be created. The only logical explanation is that an immortal being outside of space and time is responsible for the information that exists inside the universe to sustain life. The only way to disprove that would be to find and observe intelligent life that exists without information, which is impossible based upon our current understanding of the universe. To claim otherwise is a completely evidenceless faith claim of the most intellectually dishonest kind.

 

[frish]

You present such an OP...then you tell us
"The big bang came from nothing, there was nothing from which it emerged.
Particles are appearing and disappearing all the time in the universe."

From nothing there is the ability to have something emerge on its own?

You even posted "Just because it's complex doesn't mean it didn't evolve this way."
Evolutionism dosen't have the ability to evolve such complexity. Did you watch the short video?

\
Okay, perhaps my big bang theory is only a reflection of lack of info.

Here's a little something you might find interesting. The Universe was already here, but, like water turning to ice, a phase transition created our reality.
Before Big Bang: Scientists discover what existed BEFORE the beginning of the universe

October 2016. The nice thing about science, it's always evolving, never claims to have all the answers...

Your objection to evolution is astounding, since speciation exists. You could look it up.

98.8% of your DNA is identical to a Chimpanzee's DNA, mine too.
Our common ancestor isn't many (6-7) millions of years ago.
(Sorry, what's "intelligent" about having Chimps and Bonobo's and Humans sharing a huge portion of our DNA? It's because we evolved, as did the other 5 human types that existed 100,000 years ago (you've heard of Neanderthals I assume, there were others)).

Evolution is going on, and on-going, slowly or more quickly, as the environment acts upon populations.

The results are as you see them.

 

[frish]

So, it all happened automatically?

OK, you got me. It's April Fools Day. Good one.

Yep, did you watch the video, it showed all the chemistry involved in life.

It's chemistry, and, given proper nutrition, the chemistry just happens, automatically.

That's what's evolved so far. There's plenty more to come.

 

[PloverWing]

Everything you mentioned requires a physical substrate for information to exist. From paper to flash drive to mind, Software is electronic bits, as is digital/analog data, Turing machines are software running on hardware.

"the information is independent of the particular physical medium."
Perhaps here's where we can uncover a mis-conception.
Information is DEPENDENT on a physical medium.
The same information can be created in many forms, but it still requires a physical substrate.

Or, what am I missing? (Nothing you mentioned negated the axiom...).

A Turing machine is a mathematical object: an infinitely long tape, a collection of transitions (which can be represented either as a table or as a set of nodes and directed arcs), and a current state. To communicate it to you, I have to write it down on paper with a pen, or something similar, but the Turing machine isn't the paper and ink; it's a mathematical abstraction.

I agree that I use the physical "hardware" of my mind to think about mathematical abstractions. But I'm not persuaded that minds are necessarily physical. So I'm not willing to accept it as an axiom.

 

[frish]

I fail to see how this disproves God. You say information isn't physical, which I agree with, then argue that God can't be the origin of the information in DNA because he isn't physical? How does that make any sense?

As you said, information requires thought to be created. The only logical explanation is that an immortal being outside of space and time is responsible for the information that exists inside the universe to sustain life. The only way to disprove that would be to find and observe intelligent life that exists without information, which is impossible based upon our current understanding of the universe. To claim otherwise is a completely evidenceless faith claim of the most intellectually dishonest kind.

Thinkenstein believes God can't be the origin of the Universe since nothing physical existed before the origin of the Universe, so how could God have thoughts, without a physical substrate upon which to have them?

"The only logical explanation" is a higher power?
You could say so, but 'logical', not so much.

"evidenceless faith" right, Religious Faith, by definition, can't have evidence!
See other thread.
"Nature and nurture" components of religious faith

Definition of faith
plural
faiths
loyalty lost faith in the company's presidentb (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions acted in good faith

• 2a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religionb (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof clinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return (2) : complete trust

• 3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs the Protestant faith

 

[frish]

A Turing machine is a mathematical object: an infinitely long tape, a collection of transitions (which can be represented either as a table or as a set of nodes and directed arcs), and a current state. To communicate it to you, I have to write it down on paper with a pen, or something similar, but the Turing machine isn't the paper and ink; it's a mathematical abstraction.

I agree that I use the physical "hardware" of my mind to think about mathematical abstractions. But I'm not persuaded that minds are necessarily physical. So I'm not willing to accept it as an axiom.

Yes, I know about Turing machines, and yes, they are also Hypothetical, but if one was to build one it would require physical hardware...

I'm a monist, humans are what we appear, nothing our brains can do to cause action at a distance, for example. So I don't even consider the idea that our minds Can/Would exist outside our physical existence.

Where ELSE is your mind beyond your head, brain, nerves etc.?

What evolutionary pressure would have caused that to become true?

Do other creatures have minds outside their corpus?

Okay, I have no way to change your mind, that your mind doesn't exist anywhere but in your skull, not sure how that helps us determine that god CAN exist...

 

[PloverWing]

Yes, we are starting from different philosophies of mind, so I think that means we'll have to agree to disagree.

I make no claim that any of this helps us determine that God exists. Even if non-physical minds can exist, that does not constitute any kind of proof of the existence of God. I was merely responding to a flaw in your particular (dis)proof.

 

[hedrick]

Yes, I know about Turing machines, and yes, they are also Hypothetical, but if one was to build one it would require physical hardware...

I'm a monist, humans are what we appear, nothing our brains can do to cause action at a distance, for example. So I don't even consider the idea that our minds Can/Would exist outside our physical existence.

Where ELSE is your mind beyond your head, brain, nerves etc.?

What evolutionary pressure would have caused that to become true?

Do other creatures have minds outside their corpus?

Okay, I have no way to change your mind, that your mind doesn't exist anywhere but in your skull, not sure how that helps us determine that god CAN exist...

This isn't necessarily relevant to God.

First, your mind isn't quite head, brain, nerves, etc. any more than a running program is transistors. Assuming monism is true (which is possible but I don't think is fully established) the mind is a process running on that hardware. I think it's sensible to think of uploading minds into a computer. Because the same mind could run on different hardware. If monism is true, the mind is at least conceptually independent of the specific hardware, though it's got to run on something.

If God exists, presumably he exists in some environment. I have no idea what it is. The supernatural, if it exists, may be very different from the world we exist in, but it's something. Whether it's any weirder than the world as we know it is unclear. With everything from quantum foam to dark energy, the known world is already pretty weird. But whatever existence God is in, presumably our minds and some analogy of our bodies could exist there as well.

You are aware that Christianity doesn't require dualism, right? The primary Christian belief is not the existence of some immortal soul animating the body, but the resurrection of the body (and, taken for granted, the mind) in a different form. That's consistent with the mind being re-homed in some very different substrate.

It's pretty clear that we don't know about all of existence. I don't think many scientists would be happy with a universe that popped into existence 14 B years ago, with nothing else. Who knows what the whole picture is, but I doubt we know it yet.

None of this proves that God exists. I don't like "God of the gaps" kinds of arguments: "I can't understand how ... could happen without God, so God must exist." But it's also clear that proofs of the non-existence of God aren't valid if they rest on the assumption that we know all of the places information could exist.