Should Genesis be taken literally?

[Speedwell]

If God used evolution, why did He tell us the He formed the first man, with His hands, in His image and then breathed life into him. Then, if that is not enough, He took a rib from the man and made the very first female human..

Fit evolution into those two for a start......Pretty explicit details for it to be false and then to be told to Your creation in the first bit of information that You gave them... don't ya think?

Based on the assumption that the creation stories of Genesis were intended to be read as accurate literal history.

 

[Speedwell]

We don't either. You'd mess it up. However, we don't want false theories taught as fact. See what it did for you? If you want to reference evolution theory as a scientific theory that's one thing. If you want to tell our children their Bibles are mythology and evolution is fact, I don't want you around my kids.

The slander comes from your side. Citing the fact that your claims are false teaching is quite simply truth. You do not offer your opinions as opinions; you demand that they be accepted as fact. If you simply engage in the free exchange of opinions that's good. What you attack the faith of Bible believing Christians with heresy you cross the line.

If you don't realize that evolution stands in direct opposition to the Scriptures you understand neither.

I haven't seen anyone misrepresent your rejection of the Scriptures. You're the one picking and choosing what parts of the Bible to believe. The majority of us accept it as the word of God and that's it.

More slander. You're just not interested in the truth about what others believe at all, are you?

 

[JacksBratt]

You speculate - with no supporting evidence - about motive, just like some other creationists have done. That is not legitimate debate - you have no magical powers to discern what goes on in the minds of others.

We Christians who accept reality - and evolution has the status of being a fact about reality - are simply being rational and honouring facts. You can rail and protest against reality all you like but reality is what it is. There is no credible explanation why tens of thousands of highly trained experts would all be wrong, or all be conspiring to hide truth.

And we needn't be having this battle anyway, save for the stiff-necked refusal of (mostly American) fundamentalists to accept the demonstrable possibility that the Genesis account is inspired myth.

If you read the Bible, it states that God made the heavens and the earth. It states that He did it in six literal days. It states that He destroyed the earth with a flood, it states numerous supernatural events.

HOW do you know which ones are the truth and which ones are allegory?
How do you know what to believe is fact and what is only story?

The thing is... there is absolutely no scientific foundation for Christ's Gospel message. It fly's in the face of provable, testable repeatable stipulation of scientific fact.

Yet, you believe it. You trust in it. You base your eternal life on it.....It is your salvation.

However, man tells you that creation is not as it is written and you stand on the wisdom of men.

So, I guess we better accept one piece of scripture cause without it we have no salvation. The rest...........hmmm allegory.

 

[JacksBratt]

Based on the assumption that the creation stories of Genesis were intended to be read as accurate literal history.

Please show me where there is any indication that they should be taken otherwise.

 

[Speedwell]

HOW do you know which ones are the truth and which ones are allegory?
How do you know what to believe is fact and what is only story?

Yes, there is a way of doing it which I have confidence in, enough confidence to trust my salvation to it. But my experience tells me that there is no use at all in trying to explain it to people like you. You are too anxious to justify your own view and too ready to attribute mine to an attempt to accommodate evolution and you have no respect whatever for the faith of any Christian who doesn't toe your line. Not worth the trouble. You can go right on thinking that I am a Bible-hating, Christ-denying commie and be damned to you.

 

[Speedwell]

So, I guess we better accept one piece of scripture cause without it we have no salvation.

LOL! There's another assumption I had forgotten about: Sola Scriptura. Fortunately, I am not a Protestant and my salvation comes from Christ, not the Bible.

 

[JacksBratt]

Yes, there is a way of doing it which I have confidence in, enough confidence to trust my salvation to it. But my experience tells me that there is no use at all in trying to explain it to people like you. You are too anxious to justify your own view and too ready to attribute mine to an attempt to accommodate evolution and you have no respect whatever for the faith of any Christian who doesn't toe your line. Not worth the trouble. You can go right on thinking that I am a Bible-hating, Christ-denying commie and be damned to you.

Ah, don't beat yourself up. I wouldn't damn ya.

Just want to know how you know that Jesus walked on water, for certain, but He didn't make the universe in six days, like He said.

Genesis gives me no indication that it is meant to be taken any way but as it is written.

Just cause a bunch of atheists would make a bunch of pig bones into a skull, use some glue and file some teeth and call it a "missing link" wouldn't turn me into not trusting them ..................would it? Well.......ya, it would.

Meanwhile, my creator tells me how He created the universe. He does it in simple fashion with enough detail to indicate that it was six literal days, He formed the first human man, gave him life and then made the first female woman from his rib...

So, who do I believe? I believe God for my salvation. Those words are true. I believe my God for creation as well. He is perfectly capable and He told me that's how He did it.... why would I doubt Him......cause some white coats with glue and tooth dust on their fingers tell me otherwise....???

 

[JacksBratt]

LOL! There's another assumption I had forgotten about: Sola Scriptura. Fortunately, I am not a Protestant and my salvation comes from Christ, not the Bible.

LOL where did you learn about Christ's death and resurrection and saving grace..............if not from the Bible?

 

[Speedwell]

LOL where did you learn about Christ's death and resurrection and saving grace..............if not from the Bible?

Apostolic Tradition. The Bible was just given us to keep our story straight.

 

[Jezmeyah]

Mods, if this isn't in the right section please move, I wasn't sure where the best place for this discussion would be, as this has more to do with the entire book and not only creation.

Genesis is the history of Israel's roots...most believe Moses to be the author of the book, and if we go by the chronology from Genesis to Exodus, he wouldn't have been born until a couple thousand years after the account of Adam. Prior to this, these stories would have been handed down through oral tradition.

When stories are told from one generation to the next things change. Some things may be added, others taken away...things become embellished...that's just how it is. It doesn't mean that anyone is lying, necessarily, just that what we hear as a child and what we teach to our children about a subject may change slightly based on our recollection. And then there are those that like to add their own spin to make things more interesting, and it sticks...

A good, more modern example of this would be the story of Jesse James...many accounts made him out to be a Robin Hood of his day, only stealing from the rich and helping the poor...after the Civil War there was a lot of distrust in this country, and people wanted a hero they found him in this notorious outlaw...the truth of the matter was he was your typical run of the mill thief...albeit a very good one...but stories were made up about him in newspapers, books and songs...and now, 140 years later, there are those that think he was, as the "The Ballad of Jesse James" said, "a friend to the poor that would never have a brother suffer pain." In this instance, of course, we can look back at actual accounts from the day and easily put these claims to rest.

So, is it possible that this is what happened with Genesis? That after years of oral tradition some of the "facts" changed? I'm not saying this as a dig at creationism, or anything like that. Nor am I saying that there is no truth to be found in Genesis...I believe it paints a beautiful picture of creation, of God's desire to have a relationship with His people, of man's biggest obstacle to overcome being his sinful nature, and how the foundation was being laid for the Christ.

Those entrusted with the inspired word of God were meticulous to keep it pure. There's a scripture that speaks to that fact, so the idea that somewhere along the line it got embellished, is false.

The Hebrew language uses words that also have numbers assigned to them. So a text is written, the letters are mathematically added up. And records are kept concerning the correct number each line should have. If it didn't, then the entire tablet was considered trash and the scribe would start over again. Absolute purity of God's word was paramount.

Such detail cannot be comparative with any secular tendency to drop something here, or add something there.

When it comes to such matters as the eternity of one's soul, how can anyone entertain that God's word is less than completely pure? If one thinks that any part of Genesis is not exactly true, then what's to keep anyone from questioning the parts about redemption and salvation?

No. Such thoughts that question the purity of God's word comes from the words Jesus said being used against God's word. "A house divided against itself will fall."

What good is a house that has no good foundation? The old testament is the foundation. The new testament is the house. The wise builder is Jesus Himself who relied upon the old testament throughout his ministry.

A builder can't use inferior materials when building his house. Jesus relied on the integrity of the old testament every moment of every day of his life. He said when tempted of the devil in the wilderness, "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."

That every word, began in Genesis.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I have a question for those who believe in evolution. Where does sin come from? And how does Jesus's death cover our sin?

One belief is that sin began when Satan was thrown down to the earth and he wanted to destroy God's creation here on the earth. This began about 200 million years ago when the dinosaurs developed teeth and they began to devour each other. Galatians 5:15 "If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other."

 

[JacksBratt]

Apostolic Tradition. The Bible was just given us to keep our story straight.

What is "apostolic tradition"?

 

[Speedwell]

Ah, don't beat yourself up. I wouldn't damn ya.

That's OK. I've already been damned to hell by your colleagues several times just on this thread already.

Just want to know how you know that Jesus walked on water, for certain, but He didn't make the universe in six days, like He said.

I don't think "He said."

Genesis gives me no indication that it is meant to be taken any way but as it is written.

I'm not sure exactly what that means, but my impression is that you are trying to force the text into a modern form of historical narrative which has no precedent in ancient Hebrew literature.

Just cause a bunch of atheists would make a bunch of pig bones into a skull, use some glue and file some teeth and call it a "missing link" wouldn't turn me into not trusting them ..................would it? Well.......ya, it would.

Meanwhile, my creator tells me how He created the universe. He does it in simple fashion with enough detail to indicate that it was six literal days, He formed the first human man, gave him life and then made the first female woman from his rib...

So, who do I believe? I believe God for my salvation. Those words are true. I believe my God for creation as well. He is perfectly capable and He told me that's how He did it.... why would I doubt Him......cause some white coats with glue and tooth dust on their fingers tell me otherwise....???

Your belief that evolutionary biology is a fraud concerns me. I'm not a scientist, my background is in math and engineering, but I am passing familiar with science and have worked with scientists and it seems implausible and not a little paranoid to me. What would be the motive? The number of scientists who are theists who are scientists argues that it is not an atheistic conspiracy and quite frankly YECism is too small a segment of Christianity to merit so much effort.

 

[Speedwell]

What is "apostolic tradition"?

Sacred tradition - Wikipedia

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Before Moses the stories were on clay tablets.

No the weren't, they were oral tradition.

 

[joshua 1 9]

No the weren't, they were oral tradition.

We have clay tablets today that tell the story of Noah and the Ark before Moses wrote Genesis. So if the exact Bible version was around or not there were still written versions of the story outside of the Bible.

The Animals Went in Two by Two, According to Babylonian Ark Tablet - Biblical Archaeology Society

 

[AnnaliseH]

1. The political agenda that goes with it. None of us wants to see Protestant fundamentalism shoved up the noses of kids in public school science classes.
2. The gratuitous slander and vilification directed at non-YEC Christians. This thread has some particularly noxious examples.
3. The intentional misrepresentation of what the theory of evolution actually claims.
4. The intentional misrepresentation of the beliefs of non-YEC Christians, coupled with the steadfast refusal by YECs to learn what these beliefs actually are.

1. What about the agenda of evolution? An agenda created by scientists afraid to allow a "Divine foot in the door." An agenda rammed down the throats of 99 percent of school kids.
2. What about the slander directed at YECs throughout this thread? You say that we are dumb, that we have half our brains removed - all because we believe the infallible, inerrant Word of God rather than the word of fallible men.
3. What about the intentional ignoring of facts that do not support the evolutionist viewpoint?
4. What about the intentional misunderstanding about half the things said by YECs on this thread, coupled with a refusal to come up with any actual evidence, Scriptural or otherwise, to support your faith?

 

[AnnaliseH]

If a story is allegorical it tells us why something happened, since the definition of allegory is a writing in which the events that take place are not true but the message is true. The message of Genesis is that humans fell into sin by choosing evil over good and thus disobeying and rejecting God. The exact act doesn't matter.

Why is Jesus's death on the cross sufficient atonement for our sin? Because He took our sins upon Himself.

Yes, Jesus's death on the cross is sufficient because He took our sins upon Himself. But why did He need to become a man in order to do so?

Paul - one of the greatest Hebrew scholars who ever lived, if not the greatest - gave us the answer in Romans 5:14,15.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Because of Adam's initial sin, all his descendants are sinful. Jesus became a man, took on the form of the sons of Adam, so that His death as a man on that cross might be sufficient for all mankind. To turn the first part of that into an allegory or a myth, robs Christ's atonement of its full power. That is how a literal view of Genesis enables the rest of the doctrines to hang together.

 

[AnnaliseH]

One belief is that sin began when Satan was thrown down to the earth and he wanted to destroy God's creation here on the earth. This began about 200 million years ago when the dinosaurs developed teeth and they began to devour each other. Galatians 5:15 "If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other."

So, before Satan came to earth, the earth was good? How do you explain the death and mutations and suffering necessary for evolution - the survival of the fittest? Because that sure isn't good.

According to the Scriptures, death came into the world because of sin. So, in your theory, either sin was present before, explaining the deaths of all those organisms as evolution occurred. Or the Bible lies when it tells you that death is the direct consequence of sin.

 

[AnnaliseH]

LOL! There's another assumption I had forgotten about: Sola Scriptura. Fortunately, I am not a Protestant and my salvation comes from Christ, not the Bible.

But what tells you about Christ, about salvation, if not the Bible?