The Need to Speak in Tongues at Home

[Biblicist]

The real deception that comes from the devil is that when a person is seeking for an enhanced experience in God through a deeper infilling of the Holy Spirit, he sends a demon of fear and a lying demon to speak in that person's ear, "Don't seek that experience! You know you can be deceived!" That very thought can well come from a lying demon with the aim of putting the person off coming closer to God and having a deeper experience with Him.

The trouble is, that some are so obsessed with signs and wonders being a deception of the devil, they missed some of the real deceptions that come in more cunning ways.

One deception is to keep a good person so ashamed of his past sins and his lack of victory over his besetting sins that he loses sight of his standing with Christ and therefore the weeds of sin-consciousness grow up to make him unfruitful in the things of God.

Another deception is to cause people to set up websites to expose deception and in so doing seek to destroy the ministries of good men and women because of the small faults they see in them (which we all have). This is a good trick of the devil because he can sow doubts in the minds of people about certain very successful ministries. Isn't it significant that these expose deception sites target only the most successful and effective ministries? The devil doesn't worry about the small guys. He goes for the ones who are winning thousands to Christ.

Still another deception is to send a lying, religious spirit of pride to a church to make them think that they are closer to God and more at the cutting edge of what God is doing in a locality than the other churches. He gets that church so puffed up in pride that they become ineffective in the things of the Spirit and winning people to Christ. What happens to that church is that it becomes a religious club full of self-grandstanding peacocks!

Oscarr, you could very well be correct in that Satan could be involved with deceiving people more than I realise, though I tend to think that in spite of the brilliance that mankind can often display, I am more inclined to believe that the stupidity of mankind tends to come to the forefront on more occasions than we would like to think, where this applies both to the Christian and non-Christian.

Now, from the Continuist perception of the hardcore-cessationist worldview, where we deem this to be merely a humanist approach to the Gospel, it can be understandable that we see Satan fully supporting this particular worldview and of course why wouldn't he as it certainly undermines and diminishes the Ministry of the Godhead and to his absolute joy it also weakens the relationship between the creation and the Creator but does this necessarily imply that he or one of his minions is speaking directly into the heart of each and every hardcore-cessationist?

If we move away from hardcore-cessationism to that of Evangelical-cessationism, where it seems the majority of non-Continuist Evangelicals currently reside, can we rightfully say that they are being conditioned by demonic forces if they do not fully embrace the Gospel in its entirety? For many Evangelicals who fall within this category, they are usually in this middle ground due to their denominations traditions which can be a major influence on all of us, be it with cessationists or Continuists.

But as I said at the start of my post, you could be right in that maybe Satan and his minions are speaking into the ears of more than I realise, but at this point of time I would fall back to the populist adage "Stupid does what stupid is" and of course none of us, including me, are immune to this very human dilemma.

 

[swordsman1]

Now, from the Continuist perception of the hardcore-cessationist worldview, where we deem this to be merely a humanist approach to the Gospel, it can be understandable that we see Satan fully supporting this particular worldview and of course why wouldn't he as it certainly undermines and diminishes the Ministry of the Godhead and to his absolute joy it also weakens the relationship between the creation and the Creator but does this necessarily imply that he or one of his minions is speaking directly into the heart of each and every hardcore-cessationist?

If we move away from hardcore-cessationism to that of Evangelical-cessationism, where it seems the majority of non-Continuist Evangelicals currently reside, can we rightfully say that they are being conditioned by demonic forces if they do not fully embrace the Gospel in its entirety? For many Evangelicals who fall within this category, they are usually in this middle ground due to their denominations traditions which can be a major influence on all of us, be it with cessationists or Continuists.

Seeing as the cessationist position is based on the proper exegesis of God's word it is hardly likely to be influenced by Satan or demonic forces. Charismatic and pentecostal teachers, on the other hand, have regularly been proven to 'go beyond what is written', where their eisogesis of scripture often involves reading their own preconceived ideas into scripture to come up with false teachings the source of which is anyone's guess. But it is certainly not from the Holy Spirit seeing as the things which are regularly attributed to Him (unbiblical tongues, counterfeit miracles, false prophecies, 'slayings', mysticism, disorderly/animalistic/drunken behavior, 'holy laughter', and many other errant practices and doctrines) are demonstrably contrary to God's word and bring dishonor to His name.

 

[Biblicist]

Another deception is to cause people to set up websites to expose deception and in so doing seek to destroy the ministries of good men and women because of the small faults they see in them (which we all have). This is a good trick of the devil because he can sow doubts in the minds of people about certain very successful ministries. Isn't it significant that these expose deception sites target only the most successful and effective ministries? The devil doesn't worry about the small guys. He goes for the ones who are winning thousands to Christ.

This can certainly be an issue at times but of course there are also those rogue 'ministries' that need to be pointed out as being just that, rogues.

On the other hand it does seem that our cessationist brothers and associates tend to get off a bit lightly on this as with the sad events surrounding the hardcore-cessationist Dr. Ian Campbell who was the Moderator of the Scottish Free Church who recently overdosed and then hung himself in hospital after his wife revealed that he had seven affairs with women within his local congregation.

 

[Goatee]

Be careful you don't put yourself in danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit by inferring that speaking in tongues could be a deception of the devil. The devil does not glorify Christ. If the person who speaks in tongues can say that Jesus is Lord and that He has come in the flesh, then he cannot be deceived and that the tongues he or she is speaking is truly through the Holy Spirit.

But, the person speaking in tongues does not understand what they are saying! How do they know that 'they' are not blaspheming?

 

[Biblicist]

But, the person speaking in tongues does not understand what they are saying! How do they know that 'they' are not blaspheming?

Are you attempting to say that the Holy Spirit, who is the agency of tongues, that he could be blaspheming the Father? The only other option that you could possibly present is that when a Christian prays in the Spirit that somehow a demon captures the mind of a Believer and temporarily sends him into a trance where the demon then supposedly blasphemes the Father, which is of course impossible and there have never been any records of such a thing occurring, not even within the ancient Greco-Roman religions.

I suppose that in the end it all comes down to our trust in God, as with the world, if we do not believe that he is true in all things and if we view him as being evil and not good, then we are best to forgo the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit and rely on human denominational traditions.

 

[Goatee]

Are you attempting to say that the Holy Spirit, who is the agency of tongues, that he could be blaspheming the Father? The only other option that you could possibly present is that when a Christian prays in the Spirit that somehow a demon captures the mind of a Believer and temporarily sends him into a trance where the demon then supposedly blasphemes the Father, which is of course impossible and there have never been any records of such a thing occurring, not even within the ancient Greco-Roman religions.

I suppose that in the end it all comes down to our trust in God, as with the world, if we do not believe that he is true in all things and if we view him as being evil and not good, then we are best to forgo the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit and rely on human denominational traditions.

As mentioned on these forums before, people were 'speaking in tongues' in a congregation and one of the congregation could clearly understand what was being said while everybody else could not. They were blaspheming! They did not know this!! They were blind to it. It was in an african language which only one member could understand. The people 'thought' they were praising God / Speaking to God!

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The Pentecost churches that I have attended didn't afaik claim that one person understood the tongues by hearing it in their language per sa , so as to interpret. They claimed an independant revelation while hearing it that they expressed.

 

[Goatee]

The Pentecost churches that I have attended didn't afaik claim that one person understood the tongues by hearing it in their language per sa , so as to interpret. They claimed an independant revelation while hearing it that they expressed.

1 Corinthians 14:27-28
27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God.

 

[swordsman1]

On the other hand it does seem that our cessationist brothers and associates tend to get off a bit lightly on this as with the sad events surrounding the hardcore-cessationist Dr. Ian Campbell who was the Moderator of the Scottish Free Church who recently overdosed and then hung himself in hospital after his wife revealed that he had seven affairs with women within his local congregation.

I can't say I'd heard of Ian Campbell before, so if he was a cessationist he certainly wasn't a prominent one. Googling his story I see the allegations against him have come from his estranged wife and have not been substantiated or proven. The women that he is accused of having affairs with have apparently denied the allegations and are taking legal action. And according to his church, "there was never a whisper of a rumor about affairs until after he died – on such a close-knit island they would have been very difficult to keep secret". So it seems you may have jumped the gun in your latest attempt to smear cessationists.

And if we are examining the moral character of church leaders, then I don't think anybody can fail to notice that the charismatic/Pentecostal movement has been riddled with sordid immorality among its prominent leaders:

• David Yonggi Cho, founder of Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, South Korea, claimed to be the world’s largest church, was sentenced to three years in prison for embezzling $12 Million.
• Kong Hee, founding pastor of a Pentecostal megachurch in Singapore, was sentenced to eight years in prison for misappropriating $36m of church funds.
• Eddie Long, pastor of charismatic New Birth Missionary Baptist Church, a megachurch in Georgia, was accused of misappropriating funds from his ministries, and settled lawsuits from 4 men who claimed he coerced them into homosexual relationships with him in exchange for cars, clothes, and trips.
• Benny Hinn admitted having an “inappropriate relationship” with Paula White, a fellow televangelist, while he was married.
• Zachary Tims, founder of the charismatic megachurch New Destiny Christian Center in Orlando, Florida, admitted a year-long affair with stripper Judy Nguyen. Two years later the 42-year-old pastor died from a cocaine and heroin overdose.
• Terry Hornbuckle, founder of charismatic Agape Christian Fellowship, Texas, was sentenced to 15 years in prison for drugging and raping 3 women, 2 of whom were members of his 2500 strong congregation.
• Michael Guglielmucci, former pastor of one of Australia's largest Pentecostal churches, admitted faking cancer in order to hide a longtime addiction to pornography.
• Yvette Flunder, bishop in the Pentecostal Church of God in Christ, is a lesbian with a female spouse.
• Jamal Bryant, pastor of the charismatic Empowerment Temple, Baltimore, had an extramarital affair and allegedly sired an illigetimate child.
• Famous televangelist Todd Bentley admitted adultery with a female staffer at his ministry. He is famous for his violent methods of slaying in the Spirit by kicking and punching people.
• Pentecostal televangelist and 'prophetess', Juanita Bynum, admitted to having lesbian affairs with women.
• Evangelist Richard Roberts, son of famous Pentecostal Oral Roberts, was forced to resign as president of Oral Roberts University after allegations of misappropriating the school's money to fund a lavish lifestyle.
• Charismatic leader Ted Haggard was forced to resign as senior pastor of the 14,000-member New Life Church in Colorado Springs on revelation of his exploits with a homosexual prostitute.
• Jim Swilley, pastor of Church in the Now megachurch Atlanta, is a self confessed homosexual.
• Paul Crouch of Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN) paid $425,000 to a co-worker to keep him from going public with allegation that they had a homosexual encounter.
• Pentecostal minister and “prophet” Paul Cain was exposed as a homosexual and an alcoholic.
• Douglas Goodman, head of charismatic Victory Christian Centre near London, England, was sentenced to three and a half years for indecent assault involving four female church members. The church subsequently closed after investigators accused Goodman of receiving unauthorized salary payments.
• Roberts Liardon, pastor of Embassy Christian Center in Irvine, California, and influential Pentecostal author, admitted that he had a homosexual relationship with his church's youth pastor.
• Leroy Jenkins, TV evangelist and faith healer of the 60s and 70s, was convicted in 1979 for conspiracy to assault two men and plotting the arson of two homes. He later married a 77 year old widow who had won $6 million the Ohio Lottery, but was annulled because the woman was deemed incompetent. He still has an active faith healing ministry.
• Frank Houston, founder of Sydney Christian Life Center (later to become Hillsong Church in Sydney, the largest church in Australia), was fired from the church after confessing to sexually abusing an underage boy as well as a trainee pastor.
• W. V. Grant, televangelist, faith healer, and pastor of the 5000 strong Eagle's Nest Family Church, was convicted and imprisoned for tax evasion after money he collected for charity was used to purchase a $1.2 million mansion.
• Earl Paulk, the founder of the Cathedral at Chapel Hill, a charismatic/Pentecostal megachurch in Atlanta, was involved in numerous sex scandals spanning several decades.
• Kansas City prophet Bob Jones admitted to using his alleged spiritual authority and “prophetic anointing” to induce women to strip before him in his office.
• Robert Tilton, another famous TV Pentecostal, was exposed by ABC-TV’s PrimeTime Live for using millions of dollars in donations to his ministry to fund a lavish lifestyle that included an 11,000-square-foot home near Dallas, a condominium in Florida, a yacht, and other assets worth $90 million. His case for libel against the TV company was thrown out of court.
• Famous Pentecostal TV evangelist Peter Popoff was exposed as a fraud when it emerged that his "words of knowledge" were being fed to him through a tiny radio earpiece by his wife who had previously interviewed members of his audience.
• Jimmy Swaggart, a leading Pentecostal preacher, was caught with a prostitute that resulted initially in his suspension, and ultimately defrocking, by the Assemblies of God. He confesses his sin, but three years later Swaggart was implicated in yet another scandal involving a prostitute.
• Jim Bakker, head of the very influential Pentecostal PTL program, went to prison for defrauding his followers out of $158 million. His trial brought to light his lavish lifestyle, which included six luxurious homes.
• Finis Jennings Dake, Pentecostal minister and author, was convicted of debauchery and other immoral practices during his ministry and defrocked by the AoG.
• Kathryn Kuhlman, one of the most famous of the female Pentecostal evangelists, was mistress to Burroughs Waltrip, a married evangelist who eventually abandoned his wife and two children to wed Kuhlman.
• Famous healing evangelist A.A. Allen was forced to resign from the Assembly of God after he was arrested for drunk driving during a healing revival. Three years later he died from liver failure brought on by acute alcoholism.

 

[Biblicist]

I can't say I'd heard of Ian Campbell before, so if he was a cessationist he certainly wasn't a prominent one. Googling his story I see the allegations against him have come from his estranged wife and have not been substantiated or proven. The women that he is accused of having affairs with have apparently denied the allegations and are taking legal action. And according to his church, "there was never a whisper of a rumor about affairs until after he died – on such a close-knit island they would have been very difficult to keep secret". So it seems you may have jumped the gun in your latest attempt to smear cessationists.

As for the very sad events surrounding the ex-Moderator of the (Reformed) Scottish Free Church, considering that he was one of the leaders of the worldwide Reformed movement this means that he was certainly well known within both Reformed and cessationist circles. As for his wife "being estranged" from her prominent late husband, then I suspect that death could be considered an "estrangement" as they were certainly living together prior to his death as husband and wife. As for the allegations against him, the British press has certainly referred to his death as being death by hanging and of course the Scottish Free Church has deemed the accusations to be so strong that they have even started a commission into the accusations which apparently includes emails and pornography from his computer.

As much as the accusations against him will be damaging to his memory, it will also have a detrimental effect not only upon the community that he was pastoring within but to the Scottish Free Church and even to the Reformed movement itself.

And if we are examining the moral character of church leaders, then I don't think anybody can fail to notice that the charismatic/Pentecostal movement has been riddled with sordid immorality among its prominent leaders:

• David Yonggi Cho, founder of Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, South Korea, claimed to be the world’s largest church, was sentenced to three years in prison for embezzling $12 Million.
• Kong Hee, founding pastor of a Pentecostal megachurch in Singapore, was sentenced to eight years in prison for misappropriating $36m of church funds.
• Eddie Long, pastor of charismatic New Birth Missionary Baptist Church, a megachurch in Georgia, was accused of misappropriating funds from his ministries, and settled lawsuits from 4 men who claimed he coerced them into homosexual relationships with him in exchange for cars, clothes, and trips.
• Benny Hinn admitted having an “inappropriate relationship” with Paula White, a fellow televangelist, while he was married.
• Zachary Tims, founder of the charismatic megachurch New Destiny Christian Center in Orlando, Florida, admitted a year-long affair with stripper Judy Nguyen. Two years later the 42-year-old pastor died from a cocaine and heroin overdose.
• Terry Hornbuckle, founder of charismatic Agape Christian Fellowship, Texas, was sentenced to 15 years in prison for drugging and raping 3 women, 2 of whom were members of his 2500 strong congregation.
• Michael Guglielmucci, former pastor of one of Australia's largest Pentecostal churches, admitted faking cancer in order to hide a longtime addiction to pornography.
• Yvette Flunder, bishop in the Pentecostal Church of God in Christ, is a lesbian with a female spouse.
• Jamal Bryant, pastor of the charismatic Empowerment Temple, Baltimore, had an extramarital affair and allegedly sired an illigetimate child.
• Famous televangelist Todd Bentley admitted adultery with a female staffer at his ministry. He is famous for his violent methods of slaying in the Spirit by kicking and punching people.
• Pentecostal televangelist and 'prophetess', Juanita Bynum, admitted to having lesbian affairs with women.
• Evangelist Richard Roberts, son of famous Pentecostal Oral Roberts, was forced to resign as president of Oral Roberts University after allegations of misappropriating the school's money to fund a lavish lifestyle.
• Charismatic leader Ted Haggard was forced to resign as senior pastor of the 14,000-member New Life Church in Colorado Springs on revelation of his exploits with a homosexual prostitute.
• Jim Swilley, pastor of Church in the Now megachurch Atlanta, is a self confessed homosexual.
• Paul Crouch of Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN) paid $425,000 to a co-worker to keep him from going public with allegation that they had a homosexual encounter.
• Pentecostal minister and “prophet” Paul Cain was exposed as a homosexual and an alcoholic.
• Douglas Goodman, head of charismatic Victory Christian Centre near London, England, was sentenced to three and a half years for indecent assault involving four female church members. The church subsequently closed after investigators accused Goodman of receiving unauthorized salary payments.
• Roberts Liardon, pastor of Embassy Christian Center in Irvine, California, and influential Pentecostal author, admitted that he had a homosexual relationship with his church's youth pastor.
• Leroy Jenkins, TV evangelist and faith healer of the 60s and 70s, was convicted in 1979 for conspiracy to assault two men and plotting the arson of two homes. He later married a 77 year old widow who had won $6 million the Ohio Lottery, but was annulled because the woman was deemed incompetent. He still has an active faith healing ministry.
• Frank Houston, founder of Sydney Christian Life Center (later to become Hillsong Church in Sydney, the largest church in Australia), was fired from the church after confessing to sexually abusing an underage boy as well as a trainee pastor.
• W. V. Grant, televangelist, faith healer, and pastor of the 5000 strong Eagle's Nest Family Church, was convicted and imprisoned for tax evasion after money he collected for charity was used to purchase a $1.2 million mansion.
• Earl Paulk, the founder of the Cathedral at Chapel Hill, a charismatic/Pentecostal megachurch in Atlanta, was involved in numerous sex scandals spanning several decades.
• Kansas City prophet Bob Jones admitted to using his alleged spiritual authority and “prophetic anointing” to induce women to strip before him in his office.
• Robert Tilton, another famous TV Pentecostal, was exposed by ABC-TV’s PrimeTime Live for using millions of dollars in donations to his ministry to fund a lavish lifestyle that included an 11,000-square-foot home near Dallas, a condominium in Florida, a yacht, and other assets worth $90 million. His case for libel against the TV company was thrown out of court.
• Famous Pentecostal TV evangelist Peter Popoff was exposed as a fraud when it emerged that his "words of knowledge" were being fed to him through a tiny radio earpiece by his wife who had previously interviewed members of his audience.
• Jimmy Swaggart, a leading Pentecostal preacher, was caught with a prostitute that resulted initially in his suspension, and ultimately defrocking, by the Assemblies of God. He confesses his sin, but three years later Swaggart was implicated in yet another scandal involving a prostitute.
• Jim Bakker, head of the very influential Pentecostal PTL program, went to prison for defrauding his followers out of $158 million. His trial brought to light his lavish lifestyle, which included six luxurious homes.
• Finis Jennings Dake, Pentecostal minister and author, was convicted of debauchery and other immoral practices during his ministry and defrocked by the AoG.
• Kathryn Kuhlman, one of the most famous of the female Pentecostal evangelists, was mistress to Burroughs Waltrip, a married evangelist who eventually abandoned his wife and two children to wed Kuhlman.
• Famous healing evangelist A.A. Allen was forced to resign from the Assembly of God after he was arrested for drunk driving during a healing revival. Three years later he died from liver failure brought on by acute alcoholism.

Hey, you forgot the scoundrel Todd Bentley, he should have been at the top of your list!

Of course you would have been wise to have avoided any interaction with my reply to Oscarr as there are many well known cessationists who have fallen from grace, where the information about Dr. Ian Campbell only came to my attention maybe minutes after I read your post. Then there was the developments with the cessationist Professor Rev. James Day of the Anglican Church who was sacked last October due to his sexual sins which included holding numerous sexual orgies and if we wish to go on then I have little doubt that a list of grievous sins that have been committed by contemporary cessationists would be a long one indeed.

As I said, you need to be very careful if you want to raise these types of issues as they will quickly come back to bite you.

 

[Biblicist]

As mentioned on these forums before, people were 'speaking in tongues' in a congregation and one of the congregation could clearly understand what was being said while everybody else could not. They were blaspheming! They did not know this!! They were blind to it. It was in an african language which only one member could understand. The people 'thought' they were praising God / Speaking to God!

Even though there have always been suggestions that some tongues that can be spoken within the congregational setting in a known human language, I would be inclined to take such statement as with a grain of salt. We know from Scripture that tongues are always given in unintelligible utterances which only the Godhead can understand, so any break from this would indeed be unusual. Of course, I would deem at least 99.99% of such claims to be either the result of hearsay or a misunderstanding of what people had heard.

For instance, I know that a particular individual within a large prayer meeting that I used to attend would able to occasionally pray in Spanish when everyone was speaking words of praise to the Father in tongues, where I have little doubt that there are stories out there where some will 'rightfully' claim that they once heard someone speaking in tongues in Spanish. When we were speaking about this he told me that as he was unable to break through in tongues and to save any embarrassment he would praise God in Spanish so that he could give the impression that he was able to pray in the Spirit!!

If anyone were to hear an atheist visitor cursing God in their own language which was different to that of the majority of the congregation then they should advise some of the Deacons that this is happening and the person can be told to be quiet and/or leave the meeting. If anyone is heard speaking in a human language during times of praise and worship then this will always be generated by the person who is speaking without any need for any demonic assistance.

 

[swordsman1]

As for the very sad events surrounding the ex-Moderator of the (Reformed) Scottish Free Church, considering that he was one of the leaders of the worldwide Reformed movement this means that he was certainly well known within both Reformed and cessationist circles.

But he was not a well known cessationist was he.

As for his wife "being estranged" from her prominent late husband, then I suspect that death could be considered an "estrangement" as they were certainly living together prior to his death as husband and wife.

He was estranged as in being alienated from his wife. I read there were significant difficulties in their marriage.

Scottish Free Church has deemed the accusations to be so strong that they have even started a commission into the accusations which apparently includes emails and pornography from his computer.

Those unproven accusations are coming from his wife of course. The women with whom she claimed he had affairs with have denied the accusations, and his church has expressed doubt in them. It remains to be seen if there is any truth in the allegations.

Hey, you forgot the scoundrel Todd Bentley, he should have been at the top of your list!

No, Bentley is there. You missed him among the dozens of other disgraced Pentecostal and charismatic leaders. Easy thing to do seeing as there are so many.

Of course you would have been wise to have avoided any interaction with my reply to Oscarr as there are many well known cessationists who have fallen from grace

Who? Where is your list of disgraced cessationists? I quickly compiled a list of immoral Pentecostal/charismatic leaders, which I suspect is just the tip of the iceberg, now it is your turn.

Then there was the developments with the cessationist Professor Rev. James Day of the Anglican Church who was sacked last October due to his sexual sins which included holding numerous sexual orgies and if we wish to go on then I have little doubt that a list of grievous sins that have been committed by contemporary cessationists would be a long one indeed.

How do you know he was a cessationist? Has he written any cessationist material? It seems to me he was more likely a charismatic seeing as the church he belonged, the English Church in Ostend, runs the Alpha Course, a highly charismatic course devised by Holy Trinity Brompton, the megachurch that imported the 'Toronto Blessing' into the UK. Have you shot yourself in the foot with this one as well?

 

[swordsman1]

Even though there have always been suggestions that some tongues that can be spoken within the congregational setting in a known human language, I would be inclined to take such statement as with a grain of salt.

Don't tell that to my friend Oscar. He claims to have spoken fluently in an African dialect he never learned.

Of course, I would deem at least 99.99% of such claims to be either the result of hearsay or a misunderstanding of what people had heard.

That's what I said to Oscar. But he wouldn't have it.

We know from Scripture that tongues are always given in unintelligible utterances which only the Godhead can understand,

Have you forgotten about Acts 2, the only description of the gift of tongues in scripture? They were intelligible to the thousands of foreigners gathered there. In Corinth they were unrecognized only because nobody in the small Greek congregations knew the foreign language spoken.

 

[Goatee]

1 Corinthians 14:27-28
27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God.

 

[tturt]

There's diversities of tongues (I Cor 12:28) and I Cor 14:27-28 is referring to tongues usually spoken in church for interpretation which is one purpose of tongues.

Just because 1 person says the tongues were blaspheming doesn't void Scripture - well actually it doesn't matter how many say it.

"Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues." I Cor 14:39

All tongues can be interpreted (I Cor 14:13)

Another purpose of tongues is to magnify God (Acts 10:46) so that's for all believers (not the same as tongues with interpretation). Tongues are a sign To unbelievers Of believers. (I Cor 14:22 and Mark 16:17).

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

But, the person speaking in tongues does not understand what they are saying! How do they know that 'they' are not blaspheming?

How do you know that they are?
It is a circular question which cannot be answered.
It is the same as asking, "How do you know you are actually saved?"

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

As mentioned on these forums before, people were 'speaking in tongues' in a congregation and one of the congregation could clearly understand what was being said while everybody else could not. They were blaspheming! They did not know this!! They were blind to it. It was in an african language which only one member could understand. The people 'thought' they were praising God / Speaking to God!

This story has been around for over 50 years. I heard it in 1966. It is a lie put out there by someone intending to discredit the gift of tongues. He made up the story out of his own head with the intention of discouraging people from receiving tongues for fear of blaspheming. In all the 50 years I have been involved in Charismatic circles, I have never heard of any actual incidents of this kind. I was involved in a real incident where a friend of mine spoke in tongues in a prayer meeting, and an African brother heard my friend speaking in his own village dialect, and he was praising God and glorifying Christ.

I challenge you to cite your reference with the date, time, and the personnel involved. If you can't then I say that you are perpetuating a blatant and evil lie!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I can't say I'd heard of Ian Campbell before, so if he was a cessationist he certainly wasn't a prominent one. Googling his story I see the allegations against him have come from his estranged wife and have not been substantiated or proven.

Your relating of the "sins" of these prominent ministries is not biblical. A person who is in the fruit of the Spirit does not pass on gossip and negative reports of other people, even if it is true. Gossiping is a work of the flesh. You take pride in saying things are or are not biblical. I think you should take the log out of your own eye, otherwise readers of the forum might think that you are a hypocrite.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

As for the very sad events surrounding the ex-Moderator of the (Reformed) Scottish Free Church, considering that he was one of the leaders of the worldwide Reformed movement this means that he was certainly well known within both Reformed and cessationist circles. As for his wife "being estranged" from her prominent late husband, then I suspect that death could be considered an "estrangement" as they were certainly living together prior to his death as husband and wife. As for the allegations against him, the British press has certainly referred to his death as being death by hanging and of course the Scottish Free Church has deemed the accusations to be so strong that they have even started a commission into the accusations which apparently includes emails and pornography from his computer.

As much as the accusations against him will be damaging to his memory, it will also have a detrimental effect not only upon the community that he was pastoring within but to the Scottish Free Church and even to the Reformed movement itself.


Hey, you forgot the scoundrel Todd Bentley, he should have been at the top of your list!

Of course you would have been wise to have avoided any interaction with my reply to Oscarr as there are many well known cessationists who have fallen from grace, where the information about Dr. Ian Campbell only came to my attention maybe minutes after I read your post. Then there was the developments with the cessationist Professor Rev. James Day of the Anglican Church who was sacked last October due to his sexual sins which included holding numerous sexual orgies and if we wish to go on then I have little doubt that a list of grievous sins that have been committed by contemporary cessationists would be a long one indeed.

As I said, you need to be very careful if you want to raise these types of issues as they will quickly come back to bite you.

I think that we need to take care that we are not grieving the Holy Spirit by gossping the sins of brothers in Christ over a public forum like this. This is not according to the fruit of the Spirit. Proverbs says that it is better discretion to conceal a matter. We are all sinners and have equal need for the work of Jesus on the cross. To make a deal of the sins of others means that we may be trying to take a mote out of another's eye when when have a log in our own. This could by hypocritcal of us and could show an attitude of unforgiveness towards our brothers who have fallen. And if we don't forgive our brothers in Christ, God will not forgive us. Remember the parable of the servant who was forgiven of a great debt and then went and cast a fellow servant who owed a much lesser debt into prison. I think that these ones who set up websites to "expose" the shortcomings and failures of their brothers in Christ, and who repeat the stuff on this public forum are forgetting the great debt that Jesus paid for them, and by going out and rubbishing their fellow servants, they might find themselves in an unforgiven state when they come up before God in the Judgement.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

As for the very sad events surrounding the ex-Moderator of the (Reformed) Scottish Free Church, considering that he was one of the leaders of the worldwide Reformed movement this means that he was certainly well known within both Reformed and cessationist circles. As for his wife "being estranged" from her prominent late husband, then I suspect that death could be considered an "estrangement" as they were certainly living together prior to his death as husband and wife. As for the allegations against him, the British press has certainly referred to his death as being death by hanging and of course the Scottish Free Church has deemed the accusations to be so strong that they have even started a commission into the accusations which apparently includes emails and pornography from his computer.

As much as the accusations against him will be damaging to his memory, it will also have a detrimental effect not only upon the community that he was pastoring within but to the Scottish Free Church and even to the Reformed movement itself.


Hey, you forgot the scoundrel Todd Bentley, he should have been at the top of your list!

Of course you would have been wise to have avoided any interaction with my reply to Oscarr as there are many well known cessationists who have fallen from grace, where the information about Dr. Ian Campbell only came to my attention maybe minutes after I read your post. Then there was the developments with the cessationist Professor Rev. James Day of the Anglican Church who was sacked last October due to his sexual sins which included holding numerous sexual orgies and if we wish to go on then I have little doubt that a list of grievous sins that have been committed by contemporary cessationists would be a long one indeed.

As I said, you need to be very careful if you want to raise these types of issues as they will quickly come back to bite you.

I agree. People who post these things on public forums run the danger of facing a civil court judge in a defamation suit. Even if the events are true, the person posting could very well face litigation for publishing embarrassing and damaging allegations without being able to back them up with the full facts.