Mary - Christian Prototype

[Paul Yohannan]

Keeping the law does not make one righteous before God. And we are incapable of keeping God's law. That is why God sees all of our good "deeds" as filthy rags.

Our Lord, sho we both agree is God, did not describe the widow giving the very last of her money as alms as "filthy rags."

What you say just makes no sense in light of what Jesus actually said.

 

[BobRyan]

Close to the very heart of the Christian story is a woman. She is integrally involved in the birth of Jesus, in a way that leaves the rest of us wondering what it must be like to be so close. She is personally involved in the events at Calvary, and is one of a few people addressed personally directly by Jesus from the cross. She was there at the first miracle in Cana of Galilee.

She is interestingly a source of significant division within Christianity, and regarded by many, not so much as the mother of our saviour as a dead Roman Catholic.

I am a Seventh-day Adventist and my church is not married to the idea of flattering the Catholic Church. But even we do not refer to Mary as "a dead Roman Catholic" -- that seems like harsh language to me.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

You started this chain discussion with a post that elevates Mary's role in our atonement and soteriology.

No, he expressed the belief of all Christians before the 16th century, with the exception of the Antidicomarianites, and the belief of most Christians since the 16th century (including most Protestants).

I stated that scripture does not support a doctrine of soteriology that requires any understanding or reverence of Mary, save that she descended from David.

St. Mary gave birth to God. She carried God in her womb. She suckled God, fed Him, nurtured Him. That makes her worthy of veneration. If we believe Jesus is God, we must venerate His mother, and indeed Luke 1, which is the Inspired Written Word (describing the uncreated and incarnate Logos, Jesus Christ), declares that all generations shall call her blessed.

Indeed, the first person in the Bible to venerate her is St. Gabriel the Archangel.

The allegedly unbiblical Ave Maria is taken from his very words.

Now you seem to agree that Mary was as I said, a normal human; far different than what started this chain.

No one in this thread ever claimed St. Mary is not a normal human. If she were not a normal woman, then God would not have become a normal man. It would actually be heretical to claim St. Mary was a divine being or some kind of super-human entity.

It is her full and complete humanity from which our Lord God takes His full and complete humanity.

It is because of her full humanity, and what she agreed to do with it in service to God, that St. Mary is worthy of our veneration.

So I am at a loss as to why you continue this argument.

The purpose of this thread was to celebrate St. Mary's status as the glorious and definitive example of pious obedience to God.

Every Christian should aspire to be like Jesus and Mary. Mary is closer to God, physically and in other respects, than any of His other created children. Jesus is God incarnate. So the way to be like Jesus is to be like St. Mary.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I am a Seventh-day Adventist and my church is not married to the idea of flattering the Catholic Church. But even we do not refer to Mary as "a dead Roman Catholic" -- that seems like harsh language to me.

God bless you BobRyan!

Alas it is said, but I have routinely seen many saints whomwere not Roman Catholic, who were not members of the Roman church, but who were martyrs killed by the Roman Empire, like St. Ignatius, called "dead Roman Catholics."

 

[BobRyan]

How is it that this woman who means so much in the outworking of our salvation could be the cause of so much derision and division within the body of Christ - the Church?

I am not sure that Mary the person - the woman - the Christian - the saint - the child of God is the cause of any derision and division.

However -- having said that - when you read Fox's book of Martyrs - you find that a great many saints in the dark ages were being tortured and murdered because they refused to pray to Mary or say certain things that sounded like worship of Mary. If the question is -- "how could such violence ever stem from someone refusing to pray to Mary" then I grant you - that is a great question.

She herself was never said to promote violence of any kind as far as we read in scripture -- nor did any person in scripture ever claim to pray to her - that I know of.

There are a great many ways to honor saints that lived in the first century - saints such as Mary - but not everyone will choose to pray to them. That is not meant as any disrespect to them.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Then why do some go to Hell? If you argue they reject the gift of God, then you are saying that God is not sovereign, that man has a greater power to reject God.

No, we are simply saying that God, in His infinite love, desires our love to be voluntary.

I don't believe God sends people to Hell; I believe Hell is a self-inflicted condition of misery in which people who reject God's continual acts of grace may ultimately find themselves, Lord have mercy.

I am not a universalist, but I pray for the salvation of all. Christ shed His blood for any who would receive it.

 

[BobRyan]

God bless you BobRyan!

Alas it is said, but I have routinely seen many saints whomwere not Roman Catholic, who were not members of the Roman church, but who were martyrs killed by the Roman Empire, like St. Ignatius, called "dead Roman Catholics."

At the time of Luther there were Papal armies amassing troops - fighting each other - killing Roman Catholics - No doubt Roman Catholics themselves were killed during the dark ages - I regard that as a tragedy. Not something to rejoice over or to make light of.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

However -- having said that - when you read Fox's book of Martyrs - you find that a great many saints in the dark ages were being tortured and murdered because they refused to pray to Mary or say certain things that sounded like worship of Mary. If the question is -- "how could such violence ever stem from someone refusing to pray to Mary" then I grant you - that is a great question.

Fox's Book of Martyrs is wildly inaccurate; also, the so called Dark Ages are a complete myth.

In the Roman Church, there was a problem with the Inquisition, but it only lasted from around 1300 to the 1820s. The total number killed by the Roman Inquisition itself (as opposed to by various Catholic governments, like the forces of Piedmont that martyred the 16,000 Waldensians) was only around 3,000.

Also, the Syriac and Coptic churches, which continue to adhere to the exact Christological formula of St. Cyril, who insisted upon "Theotokos," never martyred anyone.

Nestorius, who rejected the idea that St. Mary was the Mother of God, violently persecuted many people before being deposed at Ephesus.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

At the time of Luther there were Papal armies amassing troops - fighting each other - killing Roman Catholics - No doubt Roman Catholics themselves were killed during the dark ages - I regard that as a tragedy. Not something to rejoice over or to make light of.

That era was not the Dark Ages; it was the Late Renaissance.

During the Wars of Religion, hundreds of thousands of Catholics were killed by Protestant armies.

In the British Isles, the situation amounted to ethnic cleansing of Catholics; in Ulster and the Scottish Highlands there was basically a genocide of Gallic-speaking Catholics waged by Scottish Calvinists.

Roman Catholicism was brutally suppressed in Geneva; it was marginalized, and Catholics were subject to centuries of institutionalized discrimination in the Netherlands, much of Germany, Scandinavia and the Baltic States.

Now, it is true that the Catholics did the same thing in their territories.

However, Protestants do not have "clean hands." Both Protestants and Catholics persecuted each other in a horrific manner.

However, the Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Antiochian, Alexandrian, Assyrian, Melkite, Finnish, Ruthenian, Indian and Maronite Orthodox, indeed, almost all of the Eastern Churches (with the exception of some violence involving Russia, and involving the Greek revolution, and the persecution of Oriental Orthodox by the Byzantine Empire), have a very very good record in this respect.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

And we are incapable of keeping God's law.

We are through His grace. The process of deification, through which we are saved, leads to us ultimately being able to keep it.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

So now you appear to be promoting postmortem salvation. Complete unbiblical.

Actually, postmortem salvation is entirely Biblical. "Death is trampled down by victory."

The souls of the righteousnwere trapped in Hades until set free by our Lord in the Harrowing of Hell.

Also, Lazarus can be seen as an example of postmortem salvation.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Christ did not "do" righteousness.

That is not true. Every action of our Lord was perfectly righteous.

He has always been righteous. Righteousness is not of works, lest anyone should boast.

That is not true; righteousness is a state attained theough thenperformance of righteousnworks.

Through His faith in God, not by his works.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks.

Divine grace is what enables faith, yielding good works. They are two sides of the same coin.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Then God is not sovereign nor almighty by your logic.

This is a Calvinist argument, butnit is self-contradictory.

If God is almighty, God has the power to bestow upon people self-determination and free will. Calvinists, in denying the possibility of free will, inadvertantly deny divine omnipotence.

Also, the Bible says God is Love.

If God is Love, He does not foreordain men to eternal punishment, an act somplainly unloving that it has become one of the main contributors to the growth of the New Atheism as a reaction to some forms of extreme Calvinist Fundamentalism.

I believe that to defeat the New Atheism, we must return to preaching only the ancient faith, one predicated upon love.

I work in the IT industry. Several friends of mine who used to scoff at "fundies" are studying and moving close to embracing the Gospel of our Lord having been exposed to the beauty of the ancient faith as preserved in the Eastern churches, a faith which is mystical, focused on the union between God and man in the ancient holy Apostolic Church as descdibednin the Gospel.

 

[BobRyan]

God bless you BobRyan!

Alas it is said, but I have routinely seen many saints whomwere not Roman Catholic, who were not members of the Roman church, but who were martyrs killed by the Roman Empire, like St. Ignatius, called "dead Roman Catholics."

At the time of Luther there were Papal armies amassing troops - fighting each other - killing Roman Catholics - No doubt Roman Catholics themselves were killed during the dark ages - I regard that as a tragedy. Not something to rejoice over or to make light of.

During the Wars of Religion, hundreds of thousands of Catholics were killed by Protestant armies.

Pope Bennedict put the number at 25 million killed by Catholics and went on to say this is less than half of the real number.

Catholics were subject to centuries of institutionalized discrimination in the Netherlands, much of Germany, Scandinavia and the Baltic States.

Now, it is true that the Catholics did the same thing in their territories.

What territories did the Catholics hold and for how long during those many centuries - as compared to Protestants who had no armies at all until at least the 1500's where there were precious few nations that were entirely Protestant??

I don't think there is any Protestant denomination that claims today that they were at that time "infallible" or that it was-then or it would be right today, to torture even one Catholic in the name of Protestantism.

As far as I know - the first pope that has even come close to stepping up to that same plate - is the current one in his apology about the RCC efforts to exterminate the Waldenses. A peaceful people living in the Italian Alps and Piedmont. The Catholic Digest statement is that this was a program of "extermination" so also do we see that in the Lateran IV statement calling for "Extermination" of heretics and Jews.

It is beyond the question of "was something ever done that was wrong in the dark ages" -- pretty much all Christian groups will admit that it did happen. The question is whether anyone is circling the wagons around poor behavior in the past and calling it "infallible".

I asked this question to Dr William Carroll of EWTN church history fame a few years back after there was great talk about an "apology" in the year 2000 by Pope John Paul II. I asked how they can apologize for decrees and actions proclaimed by infallible ecumenical councils. His answer was that no specific action was apologized for by Pope John Paul II so no specific statement calling or extermination could be pinned down as "bad" or "wrong".

That "kind of discussion" can only happen in an atmosphere where claims of infallibility put in doubt how far one may be allowed to go - in admitting to mistakes, errors, sins of the past and declaring them to be crimes against humanity. If they are "infallible" then one would need to be very careful about declaring even the most horrific act as a crime.

 

[BobRyan]

Actually, postmortem salvation is entirely Biblical. "Death is trampled down by victory."

The souls of the righteousnwere trapped in Hades until set free by our Lord in the Harrowing of Hell.

Also, Lazarus can be seen as an example of postmortem salvation.

in the Luke 16 parable there is nothing to indicate that Lazarus was not a child of God during his life or that he got "converted" when he died.

Is there some Bible text that says "The souls of the righteousnwere trapped in Hades until set free by our Lord in the Harrowing of Hell"??

1 Cor 15 says that the statement "Death is trampled down by victory" happens at the resurrection of the dead - at the 2nd coming. Is it your claim that the dead get converted when they are resurrected and then choose to accept the Gospel?

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Cor 15 says that the statement "Death is trampled down by victory" happens at the resurrection of the dead - at the 2nd coming. Is it your claim that the dead get converted when they are resurrected and then choose to accept the Gospel?

No, it happened at the Resurrection of our Lord.

 

[BobRyan]

Actually, postmortem salvation is entirely Biblical. "Death is trampled down by victory."

The souls of the righteousnwere trapped in Hades until set free by our Lord in the Harrowing of Hell.

Also, Lazarus can be seen as an example of postmortem salvation.

in the Luke 16 parable there is nothing to indicate that Lazarus was not a child of God during his life or that he got "converted" when he died.

Is there some Bible text that says "The souls of the righteousnwere trapped in Hades until set free by our Lord in the Harrowing of Hell"??

1 Cor 15 says that the statement "Death is trampled down by victory" happens at the resurrection of the dead - at the 2nd coming. Is it your claim that the dead get converted when they are resurrected and then choose to accept the Gospel?

No, it happened at the Resurrection of our Lord.

Interesting suggestion.

Here is 1 Cor 15

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them? 30 Why are we also in danger every hour? 31 I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die. 33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.” 34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

The Mystery of Resurrection
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

--- clearly then it is future to Paul's writing that the even takes place.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

What territories did the Catholics hold and for how long during those many centuries - as compared to Protestants who had no armies at all until at least the 1500's where there were precious few nations that were entirely Protestant??

There were no Protestants until the 1500s.

The idea that there were is a huge error, devised by ill-educated 19th century theologians searching for some kind of antiquity to their faith.

There were two schismatic groups with Protestant-like doctrines: the Waldensians and the Hussites. Both survive until the present.

The Bogomils, Cathari, Albigensians, Paulicians and so on were Gnostics, whose belief systems are repugnant to Nicene Christianity. Strictly speaking, they are not Christians according to the CF.com Statement of Faith.

Protestantism as a movement began when Martin Luther, who was a Catholic, was able to galvanize opposition to the corrupt and incompetent ecclesiastical administration of Leo X.

I am not entirely sure it was the right thing to do, due to the bloodshed that followed in the Wars of Religion and the large number of schims that followed.

It did have two positive effects however: the Anglican and Lutheran churches moved closer to Orthodoxy, as did the Roman Catholic Church thanks to the Counter Reformation.

However, one cannot help but wonder if the improvements and reduction in corruption that followed the Counter Reformation could have happened without the needless bloodshed.

---

I believe that if we were to compare the bodycount of Catholic to Protestant victims of Catholic vs. Protestant violence, the numbers would come out the same.

It does make me happy however that my church had no part in any of that violence. Alas, that did not stop the Catholics from causing schisms in the Oriental Orthodox community by exploiting tribal rivalries, nor did it stop Protestants from trying to undermine us through the backdoor, by monopolizing Arabic language Bibles, seeking to influence various Coptic churches in the Diaspora, and so on. The difference is that the Catholic attempts at interfering in our churches have stopped, whereas, depressingly enough, one will frequently encounter Coptic parish bookstores selling works like A Purpose Driven Life, and even some Coptic parishes with praise and worship bands. Mainly in the extra-diocesan areas, where there is no diocesan bishop, just the Pope and General bishops who lack the power to fire errant priests.

@dzheremi and I have both lamented this, and are acquainted with a traditional Coptic movement working to remove from the Church these materials which are foreign to our tradition, and from our perspective, theologically heterodox and erroneous.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

1 Cor 15 says that the statement "Death is trampled down by victory" happens at the resurrection of the dead - at the 2nd coming. Is it your claim that the dead get converted when they are resurrected and then choose to accept the Gospel?

1 Corinthians 15 describes an event that occurred ar the passion of our Lord.

It is the belief of traditional Christianity that Christ ministered to those souls in Hades, leading those persons who were trapped therein out and into Heaven, where they await the Resurrection.

By the way, we are getting offtopic.

The topic of this thread is St. Mary as a Christian prototype.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

in the Luke 16 parable there is nothing to indicate that Lazarus was not a child of God during his life or that he got "converted" when he died.

Is there some Bible text that says "The souls of the righteousnwere trapped in Hades until set free by our Lord in the Harrowing of Hell"??

1 Cor 15 says that the statement "Death is trampled down by victory" happens at the resurrection of the dead - at the 2nd coming. Is it your claim that the dead get converted when they are resurrected and then choose to accept the Gospel?




Interesting suggestion.

Here is 1 Cor 15

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them? 30 Why are we also in danger every hour? 31 I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die. 33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.” 34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

The Mystery of Resurrection
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

--- clearly then it is future to Paul's writing that the even takes place.

This is offtopic. Please return to the topic of St. Mary as a Christian Prototype.