Jack Chick's View on Catholicism

[Anto9us]

Interesting.

I am glad someone finds this thread INTERESTING.

I am sorry that Anastasia can only post in snippets "in between work"

I was just on the phone for over an hour with a friend -- I had intended to re-read chapter 3 of Ware's book by now...

Yes - the SLAPPING OF THE BULL on the altar was the correct "author's way" to launch the chapter with a dramatic episode; the paragraph I quoted was like "introducing THE REST OF THE STORY" and saying there's more to schism than "just these two guys"

This thread is MORE Than just INTERESTING -- it can go a long way to creating concord between Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox

somewhere above I mentioned that anything one says about a group other than their own is subject to the come-back of "Oh, you are MISREPRESENTING X group, etc"

But the best we can do is TRY to communicate

This thread is MORE THAN just about Chick Tracks; whoever thinks it is, well "they don't know Jack Chick about it" -- there is good Church History in it -- there is participation among different views

Just an hour behind schedule of my hope that there will be worldwide Christian Unity by later tonight!

 

[*Cher]

The thread is interesting. Jack Chic tracks however have no place in Christian discussion.

 

[Anto9us]

Well, THE BEAT GOES ON, Cher -- this thread has long since ceased to be about Jack Chick

A word about words

Ecumenical does not mean the same thing to me as it does to some posters here

Authoritative/authority doesn't mean the same thing to me as it does to some here

Humpty-Dumpty told Alice: "when I use a word, the word means exactly what I want it to mean, no more and no less"

and he fell and broke and nobody could put him together again

Timothy Ware is enough of an AUTHORITY on The Orthodox Church that his book was used as a textbook in a major Protestant University -- Catholic Scholar Raymond Brown is an AUTHORITY on the writings of John -- Daniel Wallace is an AUTHORITY on Koine Greek; Richard Hussey is an authority on Pre-Socratic philosophy, and so on.

Doesn't 'command agreement' on my part -- just recognizing reputation rather than hierarchy -- misrepresentation can occur when ASSumptions are made that a word means the same to you as it does to me, and vice-versa

 

[*Cher]

Well, there is good history in this thread but also a lot of mythology.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I never reject the prayers of my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ - and none of us should. I don't know about you but I need all the prayers I can get. My doctor, a Protestant, prays over me after each appointment. He always asks and I always welcome it.

James didn't tell his readers to pray for one another only if they "wanted" it. It is something we should ALWAYS do. I pray for my family every day - don't you?

Intercession is a precious and effective way of ministry and fellowship. We are often guided by the Holy Spirit to intercede for others. I interceded for my daughter for two years while she suffered a clinical depression and God answered my prayers magnificently! The Scripture says that the fervent and effectual prayers of a righteous man avail much. Once I interceded for a dangerously ill woman in a London hospital (I live in New Zealand, on the other side of the world), and was led to pray in tongues. The tongues were the most intense I have ever experienced and I was drained after just 20 minutes. I heard next day that the internal bleeding had stopped and the woman was off the danger list.

So, you see, I believe in praying for others and I do it all the time.

But, I meant that I am not going to go running around asking people to pray for me when I need something from God. I will go to God directly for myself and that way I am depending on Christ and not man.

But, and I say - BUT! I will not refuse any prayer offered to me by anyone concerned about me. I preach regularly in my church and every time I get up to the pulpit, the worship leader puts his hand on my shoulder and prays for me. I accept that with gratitude and pleasure.

But we have people running around pleading prayer from others instead of going directly to Christ. I think that grieves the Holy Spirit and demonstrates a lack of trust in Christ. But if I go directly to Christ to get help in my time of need, and He leads someone to come and pray with and for me, then I would welcome that, because it would be the Holy Spirit setting that up.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Well, THE BEAT GOES ON, Cher -- this thread has long since ceased to be about Jack Chick

A word about words

Ecumenical does not mean the same thing to me as it does to some posters here

Authoritative/authority doesn't mean the same thing to me as it does to some here

Humpty-Dumpty told Alice: "when I use a word, the word means exactly what I want it to mean, no more and no less"

and he fell and broke and nobody could put him together again

Timothy Ware is enough of an AUTHORITY on The Orthodox Church that his book was used as a textbook in a major Protestant University -- Catholic Scholar Raymond Brown is an AUTHORITY on the writings of John -- Daniel Wallace is an AUTHORITY on Koine Greek; Richard Hussey is an authority on Pre-Socratic philosophy, and so on.

Doesn't 'command agreement' on my part -- just recognizing reputation rather than hierarchy -- misrepresentation can occur when ASSumptions are made that a word means the same to you as it does to me, and vice-versa

It is true that language can be a major block to accurate communication. There are so many words that need to be defined so that we really accurately present our beliefs.

Maybe part of it is due to drift over time, as well as evolution of theologies.

Something as foundational as the words "saved" "grace" and "sin" have different meanings, defending on how precise a person wants to be. So we really do risk a lot of misunderstanding in speaking to one another.

 

[*Cher]

Please pray for me.

 

[Anto9us]

That is great testimony, Oscarr, you praying in New Zealand and affecting healing in London!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well thank you for clarifying that.

For pages you defended a position where the canon was settled a done deal in the 4th Century.

I guess we agree Trent ended the debate. Slammed the door shut.

It is also interesting that the Council of Trent was set up to deal with the issue of Martin Luther and to set up the process for the Counter-Reformation.

 

[prodromos]

Stigmata occur in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches

ah no, not in the Orthodox Church. That is something that is peculiar to Catholics (and Moslems apparently. Some of their mystics manifest the wounds of Mohammed)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

priestly celibacy - authoritative...

yet Peter was NOT - Bible mentions Jesus healin his mother-in-law

Priestly celibacy is not taught in the New Testament. Paul's teaching on divorce in 1Corinthians was aimed directly at those men who were divorcing their wives because of the false belief that the single life brought a person closer to God. Paul maintained that if a man could not contain himself sexually, he should marry, and that the marriage bed was not defiled.

Celibacy is a particular calling of God and that He would make it possible for a celibate man to fulfil his ministry without committing immorality. The problem with celibate priests is that the particular calling is not normal for a priest. And through the ages, there have been many incidents where priests and nuns have had sexual encounters and relationships. And some, including popes have had secret wives and illegitimate children.

Also, it has been reported that over 40 percent of priests in one particular order were discovered to have and maybe still are, pedophiles, involving hundreds of victims. It is sad when a priest becomes so inflamed with sexual desire that he rapes an 8 year old girl in his own church! This actually happened.

I think that the Vatican knows all about this, and the large numbers of priests there who are publicly homosexual and regular frequent gay bars. These priests are not secretive about it. They openly declare that they are priests while seeking sexual encounters with other men. But the high cardinals in the Vatican are not willing to do anything about it, maybe because some of these very high cardinals might need to disclose their own sexual orientation, and that might be too embarrassing for them.

What needs to happen is to ditch the celibacy rule for priests, and allow them to marry. If that happened, 90 percent of the immorality problems would disappear and the lost credibility of RCC priests would be restored

 

[Philip_B]

I think that one of the problems I have with the debate is that many non-catholics want to cement the Roman Church at the Council of Trent. They have had at least two significant notable councils since Trent, in Vatican 1 and Vatican 2. I wonder what the face of the reformation would have looked like if it faced a Vatican 2 Church. (I understand that there were some peculiarities in the English situation), but even still one wonders.

 

[Anto9us]

I wounder what the face of the reformation would have looked like if it faced a Vatican 2 Church.

The Reformation might not have even happened in that case

 

[redleghunter]

Well, THE BEAT GOES ON, Cher -- this thread has long since ceased to be about Jack Chick

A word about words

Ecumenical does not mean the same thing to me as it does to some posters here

Authoritative/authority doesn't mean the same thing to me as it does to some here

Humpty-Dumpty told Alice: "when I use a word, the word means exactly what I want it to mean, no more and no less"

and he fell and broke and nobody could put him together again

Timothy Ware is enough of an AUTHORITY on The Orthodox Church that his book was used as a textbook in a major Protestant University -- Catholic Scholar Raymond Brown is an AUTHORITY on the writings of John -- Daniel Wallace is an AUTHORITY on Koine Greek; Richard Hussey is an authority on Pre-Socratic philosophy, and so on.

Doesn't 'command agreement' on my part -- just recognizing reputation rather than hierarchy -- misrepresentation can occur when ASSumptions are made that a word means the same to you as it does to me, and vice-versa

 

[redleghunter]

Well, there is good history in this thread but also a lot of mythology.

Do tell.

 

[redleghunter]

I think that one of the problems I have with the debate is that many non-catholics want to cement the Roman Church at the Council of Trent. They have had at least two significant notable councils since Trent, in Vatican 1 and Vatican 2. I wounder what the face of the reformation would have looked like if it faced a Vatican 2 Church. (I understand that there were some peculiarities in the English situation), but even still one wonders.

Cardinal Newman would probably agree.

 

[Anto9us]

I always LIKED mythology...

redleghunter -- I LOVE the Humpty-Dumpty illustration!

 

[Philip_B]

Cardinal Newman would probably agree.

He may not have liked all of Vatican II

 

[Anto9us]

ec·u·men·i·cal
[ˌekyəˈmenək(ə)l]
nondenominational · universal · catholic · latitudinarian · all-embracing ·
all-inclusive

antonyms: denominational

• promoting or relating to unity among the world's Christian churches:
  "ecumenical dialogue"

ORIGIN
late 16th cent. (in the sense ‘belonging to the universal Church’): via late Latin from Greek oikoumenikos, from oikoumenē ‘the (inhabited) earth.’

----

Words are all we have -- using them -- miscommunication and misrepresentation may occur; but NOT USING THEM, not having dialogue...

That ENSURES that miscommunication and misrepresentation WILL occur

 

[Anto9us]

i·ren·ic.

[i'renik, i'renik]


ADJECTIVE

1.
formal

aiming or aimed at peace.


NOUN

1.
(irenics)

a part of Christian theology concerned with reconciling different denominations and sects.


ORIGIN

mid 19th cent.: from Greek eirenikos, from eirene ‘peace.’