Where did the Church first go wrong?

[Guide To The Bible]

We personally do not have power and authority, as it was not given to us. It was given to the apostles, and Peter was given the keys.

Clearly you have no understanding as to what the keys are referring too. They are the keys to the house of David, the kingdom of Heaven.

Isaiah 22:22 "And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open."

Peter was made the steward of the house of David, and was given the keys to this house by Jesus Christ. This means that Peter had the ability to open the door to the Kingdom of God, and the ability to close it.

Period.

Anyone in Christ has the power to give that key. It is called witnessing. And if they have the Holy Spirit they can bind and loose too. Happens every day on Earth.

 

[Thursday]

There is no biblical support for that position either.

I agree that no one should be self-appointed to ANY office; but those who recognize the gifting and function of the office CAN appoint.

Yes there is. The apostles chose Matthias, for one.

Also, Paul appointed Timothy as bishop.

Some biblical references you seem to have missed:

We cling tightly to this tradition because it's true, for starters, and because all Christians are commanded to do so by Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:2 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15. For biblical corroboration look at Acts 1:21-26, where you'll see the apostles, immediately after Jesus' Ascension, acting swiftly to replace the position left vacant by Judas's suicide.

They prayed for guidance, asking God to show them which candidate was "chosen to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away." After choosing Matthias they laid hands on him to confer apostolic authority.

Look at 1 Timothy 1:6 and 4:14, where Paul reminds Timothy that the office of bishop had been conferred on him through the laying on of hands. Notice in 1 Timothy 5:22 that Paul advises Timothy not to be hasty in handing on this authority to others. In Titus Paul describes the apostolic authority Titus had received and urges him to act decisively in this leadership role.

 

[Wolf_Says]

William F Albright places Peter above Jesus by what he said here: "The interest in Peter's failures and vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence; rather, it emphasizes it."

pre-eminence
priːˈɛmɪnəns/
noun

1. the fact of surpassing all others; superiority.

Clearly WRONG!

Herman Ridderbos says "Peter was appointed by Jesus to lay the foundation of the future church." And there's me thing it was Jesus who laid the foundation of the Church? Hang on it was Jesus who laid it's foundations, not Peter!

Oscar Cullman also misses the point of the verses given by Jesus and Paul that I gave in post #76. Cullman says "he [Peter] has the task of admitting the people of God into the kingdom of the resurrection."

With teaching like that who needs the Devil. Here this is how it should read:

"Jesus has the task of admitting the people of God into the kingdom of the resurrection."

Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven, therefore by the Power of Jesus, he was made steward of the house of David.

Learn what this means first.

You are really good at taking things out of context and spinning. I also love how you only looked at the 3 people I quoted, when there are alot more in the link I provided....

1) He did not say that Peter is above Jesus, good try. What he said is that people often point to how Peter could NOT be the rock that Jesus was talking about because a few verses later Peter is rebuked by Jesus and called Satan.

This however does not change anything, as he is pointing out, however it emphasizes it because as the leader of the Apostles, Peter had the greatest amount of responsibility, and therefore when Peter would mess up, it needed to be corrected more strongly than the other apostles.

Your second issue, you once again take things out of context. Quote the entire sentence next time, "The words 'on this rock [petra]' indeed refer to Peter. Because of the revelation that he had received and the confession that it motivated in him, Peter was appointed by Jesus to lay the foundation of the future church."

Jesus said "and on this rock I will build my Church" therefore Jesus is stating HIMSELF that He will build His Church upon Peter, as it's earthly head.

And finally, your 3rd issue, once again quote the entire sentence. "Since Peter, the rock of the Church, is thus given by Christ Himself, the master of the house (Is. 22:22; Rev. 3:7), the keys of the kingdom of heaven, he is the human mediator of the resurrection, and he has the task of admitting the people of God into the kingdom of the resurrection..."

Here, you forget that Peter only has this power because it was given to him by Jesus Christ.

Clearly you seem to have an issue with Peter, and the power that was given to him by Jesus, however it is right there in the Bible.

 

[Thursday]

Anyone in Christ has the power to give that key. It is called witnessing. And if they have the Holy Spirit they can bind and loose too. Happens every day on Earth.

Witnessing is witnessing. We all should be witnesses. That doesn't give us the authority to bind and loose or to forgive sins. Only the apostles were given this authority.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Here's what Jesus said:

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

24Now Thomas (also known as Didymusa ), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

You don't need to see your mentor, whether pope, bishop or apostle, you just need to know He is there.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

No, I don't know that. How many Churches do you think Jesus started?

One and it is His, not the popes. Not any of the popes. Not even Peter.

 

[Thursday]

24Now Thomas (also known as Didymusa ), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

You don't need to see your mentor, whether pope, bishop or apostle, you just need to know He is there.

What is your point? Do you disagree that the apostles received unique authority?

Here's further evidence differentiating the role of the apostles from that of the rest of us.

Note that Jesus is praying specifically for the apostles, THEN he prays for the rest of us. Note also that we get to choose to believe THEIR message, not create our own message:

John 17

Jesus Prays for the apostles:

15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Jesus Prays for All Believers:

20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

 

[Thursday]

One and it is His, not the popes. Not any of the popes. Not even Peter.

Do you think the Church started by Jesus teaches multiple competing doctrines?

Jesus seems to indicate a single Church with authority:

Matt 18:17
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

 

[Wolf_Says]

Anyone in Christ has the power to give that key. It is called witnessing. And if they have the Holy Spirit they can bind and loose too. Happens every day on Earth.

No, not anybody in Christ. Please show me where it says that anybody in Christ has the keys to the kingdom of Heave?

From what I can find, there is only 1 person, and that person is Peter. Those keys have since been given down to every successor of Peter, aka the Pope.

No-one else has the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven, therefore by the Power of Jesus, he was made steward of the house of David.

Learn what this means first.

You are really good at taking things out of context and spinning. I also love how you only looked at the 3 people I quoted, when there are alot more in the link I provided....

1) He did not say that Peter is above Jesus, good try. What he said is that people often point to how Peter could NOT be the rock that Jesus was talking about because a few verses later Peter is rebuked by Jesus and called Satan.

This however does not change anything, as he is pointing out, however it emphasizes it because as the leader of the Apostles, Peter had the greatest amount of responsibility, and therefore when Peter would mess up, it needed to be corrected more strongly than the other apostles.

Your second issue, you once again take things out of context. Quote the entire sentence next time, "The words 'on this rock [petra]' indeed refer to Peter. Because of the revelation that he had received and the confession that it motivated in him, Peter was appointed by Jesus to lay the foundation of the future church."

Jesus said "and on this rock I will build my Church" therefore Jesus is stating HIMSELF that He will build His Church upon Peter, as it's earthly head.

And finally, your 3rd issue, once again quote the entire sentence. "Since Peter, the rock of the Church, is thus given by Christ Himself, the master of the house (Is. 22:22; Rev. 3:7), the keys of the kingdom of heaven, he is the human mediator of the resurrection, and he has the task of admitting the people of God into the kingdom of the resurrection..."

Here, you forget that Peter only has this power because it was given to him by Jesus Christ.

Clearly you seem to have an issue with Peter, and the power that was given to him by Jesus, however it is right there in the Bible.

Your misconstruing was Jesus meant by the rock which I proved many posts ago but you would not listen. I think it was number #76?

 

[Dave-W]

You ignored the quote from Clement. Why?
Here's another, from St. Irenaeus,

Not interested. The ECFs were intimately involved in the church going off the rails.

 

[Wolf_Says]

Your misconstruing was Jesus meant by the rock which I proved many posts ago but you would not listen. I think it was number #76?

You failed to prove ANYTHING.

All you did was push your misconception in regards to that verse, and have given me NOTHING to back it up.

I have provided you verses, and quotes from biblical scholars from different denominations, not just Catholic, who all agree that Peter is who Jesus is referencing in Matthew 16:18.

I will say this again, just as Peter said "You are the messiah", Jesus said "You are Peter (Kehpas) and on this Kephas I will build my Church."

Plain and simple.

 

[Wolf_Says]

Not interested. The ECFs were intimately involved in the church going off the rails.

Really? The Early Church Fathers, who were diciples of the Apostles, and had the closest link to Jesus in them and their teachings, and the ones who made the Church go off the rails?

Interesting, and then who exactly brought the Church back onto the rails then?

 

[Dave-W]

It is called witnessing. And if they have the Holy Spirit they can bind and loose too. Happens every day on Earth.

FFOZ TV Review: Binding and Loosing

 

[Dave-W]

Really? The Early Church Fathers, who were diciples of the Apostles, and had the closest link to Jesus in them and their teachings, and the ones who made the Church go off the rails?

Interesting, and then who exactly brought the Church back onto the rails then?

Yes they took the church off the rails following the Bar Kochba revolt of 135 ad by trying to divorce the church from her roots in Judaism.

It is only now starting to be restored.

 

[Wolf_Says]

Yes they took the church off the rails following the Bar Kochba revolt of 135 ad by trying to divorce the church from her roots in Judaism.

It is only now starting to be restored.

Incorrect, the Church's roots are in Christ, not in Judaism. Judaism no longer has anything to do with Christianity. I have respects for Judaism, as it is our Old Testament, but not our New Testament which is the OT fulfillment.

And please explain, given the time period as Christianity was outlawed, how this pertains to the topic at hand?

The Church has never gone off the rails, humans did in separating from the Church during the protestant reformation.

 

[Thursday]

Not interested. The ECFs were intimately involved in the church going off the rails.

In other words, the early Christians were clearly Catholic and believed what the Catholic Church still teaches.

Doesn't it bother you that your faith is so different from the early Christians?

 

[chevyontheriver]

many have considered where it first went wrong with the church it's just that all do not agree.For instance you're talking of matthias being voted into the 12 apostles as something that should not have been done but the bible show us that Jesus gave the apostles much authority.Besides this voting matthias in among the 12apostles was prophecy being fulfilled for basically the scriptures tell us that one close to Jesus would betray him and not only will this traitor die but his position among the 12 apostles would be given to another so i don't believe that voting matthias among the 12 was where the church first went wrong

They all have to have a rationale for their own existence, their denominational existence. The Church just had to have gone bad so that it would be right to splinter off and start a permanent replacement organization. (This applies to all the splinters of the splinters as well.) But the Church is a holy thing made up of unholy people. We should not rationalize our exits from that Church but seek to reform ourselves and our neighbors to be worthy of being members of what Jesus founded.

If today you hear His voice, harden not your hearts.

All of this might be a good history lesson, but it's application is in how we personally contribute to the fracturing of the Church, not in justifying continuing to live among the fractures. That's easy to do. An internal reformation of one's personal attitudes is harder. Living a life that promotes healing of fractures is the hard way. (I can't do it very well at all. Often I end up promoting my fracture.) We are all living among the fractures.

Becoming the authority in one's own microfracture is, I think, a huge temptation for some of us. For many of the rest of us, we want to justify to ourselves why the authority we follow is right for us. We perpetuate schism. We should be looking at ways to heal schisms instead.

The OP seemed to be all about justifying being separate from those evil gone astray pretenders who did wrong in replacing Judas with Matthias. I think it is far more relevant to consider how we all can be more like Matthias and pick up the commission Judas failed at.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Incorrect, the Church's roots are in Christ, not in Judaism. Judaism no longer has anything to do with Christianity. I have respects for Judaism, as it is our Old Testament, but not our New Testament which is the OT fulfillment.

We do have profound roots in the religion of Israel. Spiritually we are Semites. At least that's what pope Pius XI said. So many distinctively Catholic practices that were lost after the Reformation are actually Israelite practices, like confession, straight out of Leviticus 19. We are more akin to the Israelite religion in that regard than we are akin to many modern Protestants.

 

[Wolf_Says]

We do have profound roots in the religion of Israel. Spiritually we are Semites. At least that's what pope Pius XI said. So many distinctively Catholic practices that were lost after the Reformation are actually Israelite practices, like confession, straight out of Leviticus 19. We are more akin to the Israelite religion in that regard than we are akin to many modern Protestants.

I understand this, however I was pointing out that our true roots in Christianity are in Christ and His teachings.

I see that I worded my earlier response poorly. Sorry.