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Is water baptism a requirment to be saved

Ken Rank

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If you're positive we are saved if we happen to get hit by a bus before we get baptized then to me that would mean we don't need baptism to be saved.
I don't believe you are saved now John. I know that is not what most believe but if the wages of sin is death and we still get disease, decay and die... then though Yeshua has earned the right to perfect us, he clearly hasn't done it yet. Factor in that we are STILL exposed to all manner of sin and unrighteousness, and to say we are saved NOW says what about God's power? Or, what are we being saved from? We still work, still toil, still sweat, still die, still are tempted.... all these things will be removed in the days ahead but not yet... so, we are not saved yet. We belong to God NOW, but are not saved yet. So... our hearts turn toward Him and our journey begins. If it ends along the way, before we do all He desires of us to do, we still died with a heart that was turned toward Him.
 
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Dave-W

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Maybe I misunderstood what you meant, but it appears you saying the command to be baptized is upon the evangelist to be baptized for the believer.
No - the command is "to Baptize," [active voice] and not "to be baptized." [passive voice]

Why are you changing it to the passive voice?
 
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JoeP222w

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Grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone is a contradictory statement.

How is it contradictory?

They are referring to categories, so the 3 things are not contradictory.
Obedience to the will of God is the way one can ever be righteous before God.

That is not what the Bible says:

Romans 3:20-23 , since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (21) But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— (22) the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


Can you show were the disobedient are righteous before God while they continue in their disobedience and rebellion to God?

I never claimed the disobedient were righteous before God. Even so, the converse can not be implied. There is not equal ultimacy there.

You have denied above that you serve #2.

I did no such thing. You have completely twisted my words.
 
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MarysSon

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By the way the people were claiming they were Paul (and Cephas and Apollos) followers and paul clearly shows that he didn't baptize them. They didn't u sweats d and his mentioning of baptism was to remind them
Who they were baptized into
By what they were doing they were clearly showing that they did not understand the spiritual significance of baptism.

That they are (supposed to be) baptized into CHRIST following and learning of HIM

That Paul Cephas and Apollos are simply men by which they had heard THE GOSPEL of their salvation which is in CHRIST who leads us by HIS SPIRIT

Not Paul
Not Cephas
Not Apollos

And, except for the gibberish in RED - that's pretty much what I told you in my last post . . .
 
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MarysSon

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Well...that you ARE right about

Why didn't he want factions?

Because he said "did I die for you? Were any of you baptized into my name?
He understood that the people didn't even understand what they were saying in even saying I follow Paul or Cephas or Apollos

Because these were just men and they couldn't do anything.

No one can be baptized into anybody but CHRIST if CHRIST indeed baptized them

And they certainly wouldn't want to be baptized into anyone but CHRIST

Sooooo, you agree that factions are condemned by Scripture - yet YOU belong to one of thousands of factions.

That makes a LOT of sense . . .
 
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MarysSon

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It's an outward expression of what should have occurred inwardly by GOD

The posters are both right and not Wrong
And, as I have already sh0wn - that's NOT what Jesus said.

John 3:5
“Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of WATER and Spirit."


Baptism is a REBIRTH - not just a "public ritual". It is a necessity. That's why Jesus also said:

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is BAPTIZED will be saved.
 
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MarysSon

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Well for me you didn't disprove the last verse I used so I wouldn't call it cherry-picking. I call it using a verse to back up my point. I have no more to say about this. Bye.
Why would you need for me to "disprove" the last verse?? It is not my intention to disprove Scripture - just your perversion of it.

I was showing you that YOU cherry-picked that verse OUT of context.
 
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JohnKing67

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Why would you need for me to "disprove" the last verse?? It is not my intention to disprove Scripture - just your perversion of it.

I was showing you that YOU cherry-picked that verse OUT of context.

Post #409, someone accused you of doing the same thing.
 
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MarysSon

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In post #397 you say that someone is cherry picking verses . That is exactly what is being done here. Is there any verse anywhere which equates baptism with birth? I do not know of any but I do know of three verses which depict baptism as death.
Colossians 2:12
(12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Romans 6:3-4
(3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Baptism cannot be birth and death at the same time.
John 3:5
“Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."
Since baptism is never equated with birth, "water" in Jn 3:5 refers to natural birth as Jesus explains in the next verse.
John 3:6
(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Note the word "spirit" in both verses, "born of spirit" "that which is born of the spirit is spirit" but where did "flesh" come from in vs. 6? Is Jesus now talking about something different in vs. 6? No, "born of water" equates to "born of flesh."
Nonsense.
Titus 3:4-6 states emphatically that Baptism is a NEW BIRTH:
But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the BATH OF REBIRTH and renewal by the holy Spirit, whom he richly poured out on us, through Jesus Christ our savior.

According to YOU - Jesus said:
“Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of his mother's womb through amniotic fluid."
And that is a perversion of Scripture.

What He actually said was:
“Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of WATER and Spirit."

2 chapters earlier, we see the baptism of Jesus - and guess how that was manifested?? With WATER and SPIRIT.
 
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JohnKing67

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Nonsense.
Titus 3:4-6 states emphatically that Baptism is a NEW BIRTH:
But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the BATH OF REBIRTH and renewal by the holy Spirit, whom he richly poured out on us, through Jesus Christ our savior.

According to YOU - Jesus said:
“Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of his mother's womb through amniotic fluid."
And that is a perversion of Scripture.

What He actually said was:
“Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of WATER and Spirit."

2 chapters earlier, we see the baptism of Jesus - and guess how that was manifested?? With WATER and SPIRIT.

So when you use a verse you're right, when others do it who you don't agree with then it's cherry-picking. I see.
 
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JohnKing67

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I don't believe you are saved now John. I know that is not what most believe but if the wages of sin is death and we still get disease, decay and die... then though Yeshua has earned the right to perfect us, he clearly hasn't done it yet. Factor in that we are STILL exposed to all manner of sin and unrighteousness, and to say we are saved NOW says what about God's power? Or, what are we being saved from? We still work, still toil, still sweat, still die, still are tempted.... all these things will be removed in the days ahead but not yet... so, we are not saved yet. We belong to God NOW, but are not saved yet. So... our hearts turn toward Him and our journey begins. If it ends along the way, before we do all He desires of us to do, we still died with a heart that was turned toward Him.

OK, not sure I agree with all that, but OK.
 
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TheSeabass

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How is it contradictory?

They are referring to categories, so the 3 things are not contradictory.

Faith alone, grace alone, Christ alone is contradictory.

The word "alone" is an exclusionary word. If salvation were by "faith alone" then that excludes everything else from salvation including grace and Christ. If Faith and Grace were the name of two women, could one be married to Grace alone and Faith alone at the same time? No for that would be impossible. If one were married to Faith alone then that excludes him from being married to anyone else including Grace



JoeP222w said:
That is not what the Bible says:

Romans 3:20-23 , since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (21) But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— (22) the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

This verse does not exclude obedience to God's will from being righteous. Again, Paul said in Romans 6:16 "...obedience unto righteousness"



JoeP222w said:
I never claimed the disobedient were righteous before God. Even so, the converse can not be implied. There is not equal ultimacy there.

The disobedient are unrighteous before God. Therefore doing righteosuness (obeying Gd's will) is how one is righteous before God. 1 John 3:10 as long as one continues to NOT do righteousness (continue in disobedience) he continues to NOT be of God.


JoeP222w said:
I did no such thing. You have completely twisted my words.

Romans 6:16 Paul said each one of us serves either ONE of two masters, we serve either:

1) sin unto death
or
2) obedience unto righteousness.

In your post #148 in this thread you posted: "Obedience does not make one righteous before God." So you have eliminated yourself from serving #2.
 
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TheSeabass

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No - the command is "to Baptize," [active voice] and not "to be baptized." [passive voice]

Why are you changing it to the passive voice?

Acts 2:38 baptism is passive voice meaning one SUBMITS himself to the action of being baptized. Therefore one must obey the command "be baptized" by passively submitting himself to water baptism where God does the work of removing the body of sin Col 2:11-12. Disciples are "to baptize" and the believer obediently submits him/herself to water baptism.
 
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Dave-W

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Acts 2:38 baptism is passive voice meaning one SUBMITS himself to the action of being baptized. Therefore one must obey the command "be baptized" by passively submitting himself to water baptism where God does the work of removing the body of sin Col 2:11-12. Disciples are "to baptize" and the believer obediently submits him/herself to water baptism.
OK. But Acts 2 is Peter discharging his GOD COMMANDED duty per Matt 28. It is not God telling the new believers to be baptized, it is Peter.

The God-Commanded requirement is STILL on the evangelist; and not the new believer.
 
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TheSeabass

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Look at the last part of Mark 16:16. You are not condemned for not being baptized. Only for not believing.

Mark 16:16 is a compound sentence with two subjects; 1) salvation 2) condemnation.

There are different requires for each subject. Salvation is given 2 requirements 1) belief 2) baptism.
Condemnation has only one requirement 1) unbelief.

Therefore one does not have to both NOT believe and NOT be baptized to be condemned. Unbelief is sufficient.

In Mark 16:16a Jesus put forth a logical sequence of steps that is to be followed. One cannot be saved unless he is first baptized and one cannot be baptized unless he first believes. Therefore belief is a prerequisite to being baptized meaning an unbeliever cannot be baptized. Logically then in Mk 16:16b when Christ said he that "believeth not" this phrase includes not being baptized....not believing IS not being baptized.
 
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TheSeabass

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"Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is the initiatory sign and seal into the covenant of grace. As circumcision referred to the cutting away of sin and to a change of heart (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:25, 26; Ezk.44:7, 9) baptism refers to the washing away of sin (Acts 2:38; 1 Peter 3:21; Titus
3:5) and to spiritual renewal (Romans 6:4; Col. 2:11-12). The circumcision of the heart is signified by the circumcision of the flesh, that is, baptism (Col. 2:11-12).


One last thought: If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?"

-Matt Slick

Check it out.

Where does the bible define baptism as a work? In Acts 2:38 baptism is passive voice.
Active voice - the subject does the action.
Passive voice - the action is done to the subject.

Therefore one passively submits himself to water baptism while God does the work of removing the body of sin Colossians 2:11-12.

Matt Slick is defining baptism in a way the bible does not. Secondly, when Christ said "It is finished" He was referring to His work he was sent to earth to do, His earthly mission was finished. Not in any remote way does this eliminate the need for the sinner to be obedient to the will of God (Hebrews 5:9)
 
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TheSeabass

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The eunuch and the jailer and his family were indeed baptized but there is no scriptural record that Philip or Paul told their converts that baptism was required for salvation.
Since we modern Christians make such a fuss about there being no salvation without baptism it seems strange that neither Philip nor Paul said that to their converts in the vss. cited.


There is no question about what Jesus taught in Matt and Mk. The disciples were assuredly commanded to "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:" But those verses do not say "Teaching them that baptism is required for salvation." And there is no record that the eunuch and the jailer knew of those verses.
.....Modern Christians have isolated all the NT verses pertaining to baptism and built, in their minds, a rock solid case for baptismal generation. Unfortunately for this argument none of the persons who were baptized in the NT had the letters that list those verses.


Please refrain from misrepresenting what I say. Of course, Peter's writings are relevant and important for modern day Christians but if the eunuch and the jailer could not possibly have had access to those writings they are not relevant to the discussion of the baptism of those two individual. Nor are they relevant to the discussion of others baptized in Acts e.g.; Lydia, Acts 16:15; Crispus, Acts 18:8; disciples at Ephesus, Acts 19:5.

Then please show me verses which say baptism is required for salvation? I don't mean a few isolated verses that, when put together irrespective of their individual context, you infer that they mean baptism is required for salvation.


Obviously in the first century, the bible was in the process of being written, so they did not have a completed bible to read, they were being taught by the apostles....and Peter and Paul taught the same gospel. Peter commanded baptism in His gospel sermons, so would Paul. When Paul was known as Saul he went about persecuting the church including the congregation in Jerusalem. Galatians 1:23 Paul now preacheth (present tense) the faith he once destroyed. Part of the faith at Jerusalem Saul went about to destroy was Acts 2:38 which Paul "now preacheth".


I have already given sufficient proof in other posts:

1) Christ did not teach belief only saves therefore His disciples would not/did not teach belief only saves either.

2) in the great commission, water baptism is how disciples are made

2) NT belief includes baptism

3) how belief is used in various verses as a synecdoche where it includes baptism:
The participle phrase "having believed" in Acts 16:34 INCLUDES his being baptized in verse 33 just as the participle "believed" in Acts 2:44 INCLUDES those baptized in verse 41.

What has not, and cannot be shown, is where those under the NT gospel were taught baptism is NOT essential to salvation.

1) Demonstrate to me that the eunuch and the jailer were taught baptism was not necessary. A Baptist preacher, for example, will teach baptism is not necessary but where did a NT disciple/Apostle ever teach such a thing?

2) And if baptism were NOT essential to salvation and not part of the the gospel when the gospel is preached, then what biblical logical reason can you give that both the eunuch and jailer were baptized immediately after they were preached to?
 
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