The LAW Paul vs. Jesus

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... So it seems to me that in the end you believe that the old testament law is meant to be followed today by Christians to the extent that it remains applicable (some of the ceremonial items simply can't be done anymore etc).

Again your representation of my position seems close. Difficulties remain at my end, making such representations as you attempt a challenge. In relating the Mosaic laws to the Christian, I feel most comfortable where there is clear direction from Jesus or the apostolic record (by which I mean to include the NT canon, some of which was written by apostolic entourage or proteges like Luke and Mark). And confessionally, I would say that is sufficient to know how to please God (cf. 2 Tim. 3:16f), in company with the church and in the power of the Holy Spirit--that even though there are aspects to the law (esp. its demands) which are not specifically discussed in the NT (ceremonial in one sense or another or otherwise). Christian ethics at root are centered in the Son of God (the Jew Jesus), even if mediated through His apostles (and foreshadowed in the OT): "For where there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well" (Heb. 7:12).

I also feel confident suggesting as I wrote above that the tripartite breakdown to the law (moral, civil, ceremonial) is NOT a NT-sponsored hermeneutical grid for determining what in the law applies to Christians (and what does not) however useful it may seem in places. Nor for that matter am I persuaded that love determines what to obey and what not to obey. For one thing, how does one love God and neighbor without appeal to specific moral principles such as those found in the Ten Commandments or Golden Rule? Love in the sense I am talking about is not so amorphous, so without content. One can of course not lie, not steal, not commit adultery and so on for self-centered or evil reasons or motives, especially if one lives in a society that affirms or rewards such behavior (as it may appear outwardly to us humans). Love is then a priority within (all) law (as well as an obligation of itself). But love in itself does not determine which demands or implications in the law of Moses ought to apply to the Christian (contra the claims of some).
 
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Athée

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Right here:

Genesis Chapter 1 (KJV)

Come to pass. In the time and space Jesus is speaking, He had yet to fulfill His death and Resurrection.

I would add to your Bible study which part of the Law Jesus taught in the Gospels. It was always moral law.

Look at Matthew 5. It addresses all laws which deal with God and mankind, and mankind with neighbor.

There were no discourses on shellfish, clothing (other than clothing the naked) and where the women folk should go during their monthly cycle.

The Law Jesus preached was the moral law. That's the part of the law which has consequences if broken.

If someone was unclean due to dietary or purity laws, they washed outside the camp and were admitted back in after sunset. Do you think Jesus was addressing this in Matthew 5 or any other part of the 4 Gospels? No He was always within the context of the moral law...the laws which directly affected God-mankind relations and mankind-mankind relations.

The shorthand being the moral law and most importantly the Decalogue.

Why was Jesus doing this? As the Teacher, He knew people had to be dragged up Mt Sinai to expose their sins, so that when He went to Mt. Zion people would know the purpose of His Atoning work.

Wow, can I come to your Bible study? :)

I've done all the work. :)
More than welcome :) ! It's probably a bit of a drive up to Canada but you are invited.
I think where we disagree is that you see the Matthew 5 passage as referring to oy a limited subset of the law. To me this is simply not the case as evidenced by his choice of words. Jesus says not a jot or tittle will pass away from the law, so here at least he is speaking of the whole thing. Then he says that his audience should obey even the least of the laws and teach others to do likewise. So the early context made it clear he was talking about the whole law and the command to obey likewise references the while law. I just don't see how you get a rou do those inclusive word choices.
Maybe you could explain it for me again?
 
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Athée

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Again your representation of my position seems close. Difficulties remain at my end, making such representations as you attempt a challenge. In relating the Mosaic laws to the Christian, I feel most comfortable where there is clear direction from Jesus or the apostolic record (by which I mean to include the NT canon, some of which was written by apostolic entourage or proteges like Luke and Mark). And confessionally, I would say that is sufficient to know how to please God (cf. 2 Tim. 3:16f), in company with the church and in the power of the Holy Spirit--that even though there are aspects to the law (esp. its demands) which are not specifically discussed in the NT (ceremonial in one sense or another or otherwise). Christian ethics at root are centered in the Son of God (the Jew Jesus), even if mediated through His apostles (and foreshadowed in the OT): "For where there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well" (Heb. 7:12).

I also feel confident suggesting as I wrote above that the tripartite breakdown to the law (moral, civil, ceremonial) is NOT a NT-sponsored hermeneutical grid for determining what in the law applies to Christians (and what does not) however useful it may seem in places. Nor for that matter am I persuaded that love determines what to obey and what not to obey. For one thing, how does one love God and neighbor without appeal to specific moral principles such as those found in the Ten Commandments or Golden Rule? Love in the sense I am talking about is not so amorphous, so without content. One can of course not lie, not steal, not commit adultery and so on for self-centered or evil reasons or motives, especially if one lives in a society that affirms or rewards such behavior (as it may appear outwardly to us humans). Love is then a priority within (all) law (as well as an obligation of itself). But love in itself does not determine which demands or implications in the law of Moses ought to apply to the Christian (contra the claims of some).
Why not just obey all of the law with the exception of things that are now impossible or which have been revised by Jesus?
 
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miknik5

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More than welcome :) ! It's probably a bit of a drive up to Canada but you are invited.
I think where we disagree is that you see the Matthew 5 passage as referring to oy a limited subset of the law. To me this is simply not the case as evidenced by his choice of words. Jesus says not a jot or tittle will pass away from the law, so here at least he is speaking of the whole thing. Then he says that his audience should obey even the least of the laws and teach others to do likewise. So the early context made it clear he was talking about the whole law and the command to obey likewise references the while law. I just don't see how you get a rou do those inclusive word choices.
Maybe you could explain it for me again?
you should read Leviticus first. In this way you will have an idea of the laws that one is required to keep.

Then you can let us know if you believe that mercy will cover over a multitude of sins
 
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Athée

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you should read Leviticus first. In this way you will have an idea of the laws that one is required to keep.

Then you can let us know if you believe that mercy will cover over a multitude of sins
613 of them by tradition, quote a list to manage! As I've said I think any shortcoming would be covered by Jesus but as Paul says are we then to sin?
 
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mark kennedy

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It seems to me that in your view the law was not to be practiced because it was a holy way of living pleasing to god but rather that it was utilitarian and practical at the time it was given. As such with modern convenience and advances in human knowledge we can set aside most of God's law because we know better now. Am I totally misunderstanding you?
Well not totally misunderstanding just kind of missing something. Sanctification for the ancient Hebrews was different then it would be for Gentile Christians. I can eat pork chops and God isn't going to refuse my prayers as a result. At the same time I think there are good reasons why they were prohibited from eating owls and vultures or even catfish.

I realize you are dealing with a lot of posts so I'm going to let this go. The bottom line is how you are sanctified and the New Testament makes it clear it is by faith, not based on what kind of food you eat. The Old Testament puts a lot of emphasis on faith but still demands certain dietary laws, they had their purpose but they were not necessarily practical, at least not for New Testament believers.

By the way, a delightful thread, thank you so much for giving it so much of your attention.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Soyeong

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Wow... Maybe next time


Wow, maybe next time you can put in some real effort and give us a lengthy post instead of this obviously short and lazy one.... :)
Seriously, thanks for taking the time to put this together, really well done and appreciated.
One question I has was if you see a difference between God's law and the mosaic law? I see you make the distinction between the true law and the Jewish tradition surrounding it but I wasn't sure if the former two were synonymous in your view.
Thanks again :)

Hehe, you're welcome. :)

"God's Law" would refer to all laws given by God, including the Mosaic Law, but I used them synonymously in my post.
 
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Endtime Survivors

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How do you justify, biblically, this idea that God's initial law was not perfectly moral and good?

Hi Athee. Thanks for your response. I've made a reply. It's a bit long but it seems like you want details, so I've started by giving an assessment of why I think the Law exists in the first place. I hope you find it helpful.

Humanity is one long work in progress. God is teaching us in stages from the very first commands to name animals in the garden, to the discovery of Abraham. Abraham was an interesting test case, as there didn't seem to be any law for him. I don't know how God builds the souls that he puts into the body, but it's certainly not a cookie cutter method. There appears to be a randomness that God himself injects into the spirit and waits to see what pops out. Abraham appeared to be a rare gem in how he turned out and God liked it, a lot. He wanted to use Abraham as the model for what all Israel should be like. The relationship with Abraham was quite interesting. God just kinda worked casually with him, I think because Abraham didn't need a law. He listened to God because he believed God knew what was best.

Then there were the "Children of Abraham"; the Israelites. They were only in captivity in Egypt in the first place because they were rebellious and then when Moses pulled them out they were still rebellious (just about every other chapter after exodus starts with "and the children of Israel went a whoring again".)

With Abraham it was easy, because he wanted to be faithful to God, but real faith, by design, can't be mass produced. God could not count on having the same loose and carefree relationship with the children of Israel that he had with Abraham; they were simply too rebellious, so he gave them the Law (they were busy committing idolatry even as the Law was being given to Moses up on the mountain); a written list of rules to make his will clearly known in a situation where they were nowhere near as attentive at listening as Abraham was. It was only ever meant to be a temporary guide, just until they learned enough that they didn't need the Law anymore, like Abraham. It was God's way of starting slowly with them, much like we might write out a list of rules for kids.

Unfortunately, that's not how it turned out. People took the law and either became complacent with it or twisted it around to suit their own selfish desires and ambitions. The gospels are full of Jesus citing these examples. The gold of the temple had become more important than the temple itself. The sacrifice on the altar had become more important than the altar itself. The people loved the highest seats. They loved fancy robes. They loved fancy greetings of prominence and respect. The animals they killed to atone for their sins had become mere commodities to buy and sell. They had come to love wealth. They put heavy burdens on the people and they didn't lift a finger to help them. The Law was a near complete failure.

The "next phase" never came because the children didn't grow. God finally got tired of waiting for them and decided to move on without them; he started the next phase anyway and Jesus entered the scene.

Jesus made a lot of changes to the Law. Rather than killing our enemies, we should love them. All that fighting in the OT, where the Children of Israel trekked to the promised land destroying cities along the way was part of the learning process. God wanted the Children of Israel to be the shining example of "His People" to the world and part of that meant demonstrating that he would protect his people and that he should be respected as their guardian.

God isn't afraid to crush his enemies, but he's not a God of perpetual war, either. That phase of growth was only meant to be temporary, too and the results showed that just crushing through the land unstoppable did not guarantee faith, either from the children of Israel or those looking on. Fantastic, mighty, unstoppable displays of power also didn't guarantee faith.

But it was important for God to go through those motions to offset the idea of bringing change through love. Now we can look back on the OT and say, "See, that course of action doesn't work; God wants us to try love now". Or, when it comes to one particular group being "God's chosen" and expecting faith to come as a result of being part of the special group, we can look back and say, "Well, it didn't work for the Jews, why should we think it will work now". Being part of the special group does not guarantee faith. We need something more.

And that's why the introduction of the Holy Spirit as the fulfillment of the Law was so important. Even in our own lives we can experiment with how the Law fails. Try to write out a list of rules governing just one day of your life, and you'll quickly see that you will be more busy writing out amendments and new rules as you go along than just living your life.

The Law can be helpful, but on it's own it is incomplete and stunted. The spirit is flexible and always moving. The spirit is what will help us to know how to apply the law fairly.

So now, after thousands of years of trudging progress, we're living in one of the most spiritually advanced times of history. Compare all the possibilities of ethics and morality we have now to the very simple life Adam had in the garden, where the only ethic he had to deal with was "don't eat from that one tree" (and quite possibly not expecting Eve to do all the tidying up).

I think it always comes across as strange when I say this, but Christianity is the purest form of anarchy. The Law is what Christianity is striving to get away from. We have things like "The Law" and even Jesus gave commands, but God wants us to get to the point where we don't need rules and commands to tell us what to do. He wants us to do the right thing because we want to and not just because we are told to. The Law, and rules, and guidelines etc are only important insofar as they work to make themselves obsolete as rules.

After the "Time of Jesus" (culminating in the Battle of Armageddon) there will be another phase. Jesus talked about the saints ruling the nations for 1000 years after he returns. We'll have new bodies, new relationships, and new authority. It will be time for us to put into practice all that we've learned in this life about faithfulness, fairness, and justice over the mortals who will remain.

And after that, there will be another phase of our learning. And after that, almost certainly another phase.
 
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613 of them by tradition, quote a list to manage! As I've said I think any shortcoming would be covered by Jesus but as Paul says are we then to sin?

Ah haha athee I really like you! I feel like it might actually be refreshing to have a disagreement with you just because you're so reasonable in your disagreements!
 
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Bible Highlighter

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So in response to being asked to support your assertion you seem to have doubled down by adding a bunch of new assertions and added some equivocation about the word understand on the side.
I recognize that your perspective is well supported by the Bible, I also think it is telling that rather than prove your bible to be correct on this count you chose instead to decline. How you witness your faith is up to you but know that from my side of things your inability or unwillingness to prove your assertions true makes it difficult to respect your position.

Jesus says, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given" (Matthew 13:11).

""Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 7:6 NASB) (cf. Psalms 119:162 and Proverbs 2:1-5).

Paul says,
3 "If any man ... consent not to ... the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Do you consent the words of Jesus Christ according to His Commandment to believe in Him? (1 John 3:23). If not, Paul says such a person who does not agree with the words of Jesus is a proud person who knows nothing. You can claim that I said this, but I didn't. I am merely relaying what the Bible says to you. I am just a messenger. So please do not shoot the messenger.

Anyways, if you were to have talked to me a long time ago when I was a wet behind the ears new Christian, I would have helped you. But experience and knowledge of God's Word has given me wisdom not to cast my pearls (i.e. My Precious Discovered Treasures from God's Word) before those who would not truly appreciate it (nor truly understand it).

In any event, if you truly want to know what God's Word says on this matter, repent and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior.


...
 
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Bible Highlighter

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The Bible also says,

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Corinthians 6:14).


...
 
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mercy1061

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Why not just obey all of the law with the exception of things that are now impossible or which have been revised by Jesus?
It is like a criminal being convicted of a crime and sentenced by the honorable Court to "supervised probation" or as the scriptures say "under the supervision of the law" As a result for a period of time a legal agent is appointed to monitor the convict progress in society. If the sinner violates the "requirements of the law" his freedom may be taken he may be thrown into jail. However when Yeshua came the criminal is "made free indeed" if he walks by faith the Court may suspend his supervision if the honorable Court finds the criminal bear fruits worthy of repentance. Luke 3:8
 
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DingDing

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I am not sure I agree with that position. It is certainly possible for Jesus to have taught message A and for an apostle to then go out and teach message B. If you think my reading of what Jesus actually said is incorrect please explain where I am going wrong :)
Thanks

What you are not doing is attempting to understand the teachings of Jesus as understood by those who were hand-picked by Him to spread His gospel. So here you are, some unbeliever about 2000 years after the fact, and you are going to try to understand this gospel apart from the understanding of those Jesus hand-picked and taught and commissioned. That is where you are going wrong. If you were really after truth, you would be looking hard at what His followers wrote and taught. According to what you seem to be implying, they all got it wrong.
 
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Neogaia777

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Jesus knew it would be and is impossible for us to truly fulfill or live up to or keep the law in the way and manner that everything prior had been taught, and was being taught, by the Pharisees, about it... Jesus wanted us to have a better chance attaining to it, by and with and through "Love", and being perfect and perfected in love, gave and gives us the one and only way, and only true chance to truly attaining to it...

He did not do away with the Law, but the old way of trying to attain or live up to it, and instituted a new and better way... Paul is not in conflict with this either, he attacks all of the old ways of trying to attain to it that do not work... Which is what Jesus wanted him to do...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Yes, the righteous.
No, they all failed and fell short, the one and only exception maybe, MAYBE being Enoch, but I doubt that as well, (But, Enoch was also before the law)... But, Moses, Elijah, "all" of them who had the law, and were exposed to the law, failed, (though some may have died only thinking they did not.) (break or violate the OT law)... (But, they didn't have Christ then, and I'm sure will be corrected when they meet him...)
 
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miknik5

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OK so given that you agree that the law was absolutely perfect and it described how God wanted life to be lived, don't you think you should continue to do your best to follow it out of reverence for God even though it does not bring salvation?
Also could you explain clearly for me why the fact of him being of Melchizadec is so significant as to be devastating to the idea that Christians should continue to follow the law. I feel like there is something that is obvious to you about it that I am just not aware of.
Thanks :)
It makes HIM LORD

not men
 
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