Why do people hate the Seventh Day Adventists?

[Andrewofthetribe]

Was it something I said??

Lol more the volume of your words

 

[ViaCrucis]

you claim an angel, Michael, as your prince??
Dan_10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

No, Michael is not my prince.

"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me twenty-one days. So Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I left him there with the prince of the kingdom of Persia, and have come to help you understand what is to happen to your people at the end of days. For there is a further vision for those days. ... Then he said, 'Do you know why I have come to you? Now I must return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I am through with him, the prince of Greece will come. But I am to tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth. There is no one with me who contends against these princes except Michael, your prince." - Daniel 10:13-14, 20-21

"At that time Michael, the great prince, the protector of your people, shall arise." - Daniel 12:1

Michael is the guardian angel of Israel. Michael is not the only "prince" here, but is "one of the chief princes", who contends for Israel.

Is Jesus just one among many princes?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

An angel is Daniels prince?!

Not just Daniel's, but the entire nation of Israel's prince. Yes. Read the entirety of Daniel ch. 10.

Where does it say Michael is a guardian angel?

Daniel 12:1

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

A reference to King Cyrus the Great of Persia, who gave the Jews the right to return to the Land, rebuild Jerusalem and the temple. The same Cyrus that God calls, in the book of the Prophet Isaiah, "My Messiah".

Act 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

If because Christ is called "prince" in one place of Scripture you must conclude any reference to the term "prince" must mean Christ, then it follows that you must also believe King Cyrus of Persia is Jesus, after all Cyrus isn't just called "prince" he's called "messiah".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BobRyan]

A traditional position is that this was, in fact, a theophany.

But a theophany of the pre-Incarnate Logos

Funny how that works isn't it.

And of course - God and 2 angels described as "3 men" in Genesis 18 does not mean that God is a man or that angels are men.

So then ... 'the obvious' - that they present themselves in that form - but are not in fact incarnate in that form or merely that form.

BTW the whole "God the Son is also called Michael" topic is not even one of our doctrinal statements of belief. But since you enjoy the subject - I am happy to participate in it.

----------------- "our prince" - according to the Bible is God the Son - Jesus Christ - also called Michael even if someone does not like this Bible detail

Isaiah 9 -- the ONLY prince from heaven - given to us in all of scripture

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Dan 10
21 However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince.

---- God the Son - alone --- is commander of all the angels in heaven

And of course God the Son (and not some angel) is the head of all Angels

Hebrews 1 -
6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Rev 12
7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and His angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.


"unto us is given... Prince of peace" Isiah 9
"Michael your prince" Daniel 10

But just because Genesis 18 calls God and 2 angels "three men" -- you should not think that God and the angels are "just men" -- that would be a mistake.

You are free to choose whatever you wish - of course. And this is not a doctrinal statement in the SDA 28 statements - statements of faith. Just an interesting Bible detail.

This is of course irrelevant to the subject of the SDA doctrine

In that God the Son in the form of Michael is not a doctrinal statement of ours -- on in that sense is your statement remotely true.

Reminder - it is not a doctrinal statement of the SDA denomination --
https://www.adventist.org/fileadmin...rticles/official-statements/28Beliefs-Web.pdf

It is merely an interesting Bible detail -- like the fact that it did not rain on earth before the flood. Also not a doctrinal statement - but an interesting Bible detail.

No, Michael is not my prince.

Fine for you - but the rest of us are humans - and under the NEW Covenant... so then

Dan 10
21 However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince.

Isaiah 9 -- the ONLY prince from heaven - given to us in all of scripture
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[BobRyan]

If because Christ is called "prince" in one place of Scripture you must conclude any reference to the term "prince" must mean Christ, then it follows that you must also believe King Cyrus of Persia is Jesus, n

Not in real life.

In real life the Prince given to us is from heaven -- in Isaiah 9 and is also Mighty God.
In real life - in Daniel 10 our prince who is in heaven - is named "Michael" not because God the Son is an angel but because as in Genesis 18 - it is a role that he takes on.

Not a doctrinal statement and you are free to reject all the Bible details you wish in that regard.

 

[mmksparbud]

No, Michael is not my prince.

"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me twenty-one days. So Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I left him there with the prince of the kingdom of Persia, and have come to help you understand what is to happen to your people at the end of days. For there is a further vision for those days. ... Then he said, 'Do you know why I have come to you? Now I must return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I am through with him, the prince of Greece will come. But I am to tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth. There is no one with me who contends against these princes except Michael, your prince." - Daniel 10:13-14, 20-21

"At that time Michael, the great prince, the protector of your people, shall arise." - Daniel 12:1

Michael is the guardian angel of Israel. Michael is not the only "prince" here, but is "one of the chief princes", who contends for Israel.

Is Jesus just one among many princes?

-CryptoLutheran

Hardly---neither was any angel Daniel's prince. "Protector of your people?"

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Fine for you - but the rest of us are humans - and under the NEW Covenant... so then

Dan 10
21 However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince.

Isaiah 9 -- the ONLY prince from heaven - given to us in all of scripture
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

"Now the day before Saul came, the LORD had revealed to Samuel: 'Tomorrow about this time I will send to you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him to be prince over My people Israel. He shall save My people from the hand of the Philistines; for I have seen the suffering of My people, because their outcry has come to Me.'" - 1 Samuel 9:15-16

Also, here you go, here's a list of passages that use sar, "prince", "captain", "commander", etc:

Strong's Hebrew: 8269. שָׂר (sar) -- 421 Occurrences

And, here is a list that uses nagid, "prince", "ruler"

Strong's Hebrew: 5057. נָגִיד (nagid or nagid) -- 44 Occurrences

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Not a doctrinal statement and you are free to reject all the Bible details you wish in that regard.

I haven't rejected any "Bible details", just a false, non-biblical, 19th century idea. I also reject phrenology and spiritualism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[mmksparbud]

Not just Daniel's, but the entire nation of Israel's prince. Yes. Read the entirety of Daniel ch. 10.



Daniel 12:1



A reference to King Cyrus the Great of Persia, who gave the Jews the right to return to the Land, rebuild Jerusalem and the temple. The same Cyrus that God calls, in the book of the Prophet Isaiah, "My Messiah".



If because Christ is called "prince" in one place of Scripture you must conclude any reference to the term "prince" must mean Christ, then it follows that you must also believe King Cyrus of Persia is Jesus, after all Cyrus isn't just called "prince" he's called "messiah".

-CryptoLutheran

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

From the command to restore and build Jerusalem UNTO THE MESSIAH THE PRINCE. If Cyrus gave the command to rebuild Jerusalem, then from that command to the MESSIAH THE PRINCE, shall be 7 weeks, and threescore and 2 weeks. Cyrus was not Messiah.

Please state the verse in Isaiah.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

From the command to restore and build Jerusalem UNTO THE MESSIAH THE PRINCE. If Cyrus gave the command to rebuild Jerusalem, then from that command to the MESSIAH THE PRINCE, shall be 7 weeks, and threescore and 2 weeks. Cyrus was not Messiah.

The command to restore Jerusalem is the word of the Prophet Jeremiah,

"Thus says the LORD: I am going to restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob, and have compassion on his dwellings; the city shall be rebuilt upon its mound, and the citadel set on its rightful site." - Jeremiah 30:18

From the prophecy of Jeremiah to the time of Cyrus the time of the exile was 70 years.

"This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, says the Lord, making the land an everlasting waste.I will bring upon that land all the words that I have uttered against it, everything written in this book, which Jeremiah prophesied against all the nations. For many nations and great kings shall make slaves of them also; and I will repay them according to their deeds and the work of their hands." - Jeremiah 25:11-14

Cyrus is "messiah, the prince" in Daniel. It is Cyrus who, as the anointed of God, returned the Jews to the Land, and under the governor Zerubbabel Jerusalem and the Temple were rebuilt and restored.

Please state the verse in Isaiah.

"Thus says the LORD to His messiah, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped to subdue the nations before him and strip kings of their robes, to open doors before him--and the gates shall not be closed." - Isaiah 45:1

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hardly---neither was any angel Daniel's prince. "Protector of your people?"

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

As an archangel and the guardian of Israel he absolutely was Daniel's prince. He wasn't the only prince either, as he is "one of the chief princes" as already stated.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

To all who may read,

The reason I ask some here the question

Is Jesus Christ in you? is because some don't believe Jesus Christ is God the Son from eternity. They say he is Michael, but an angel or "archangel" (which simply defines a rank or headship of angels) cannot be in every believer at one time. Only God can. So i ask is Jesus Christ in you? if they say no, then I show them this verse that exposes them as not in the faith

"5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Cor 13:5 KJV)

so a reprobate is someone who is unapproved, worthless, a castaway, rejected as the greek word for "reprobate" means

The Judge again; is he aspiring for Divinity, cultivating hate for SDA?

 

[mmksparbud]

The command to restore Jerusalem is the word of the Prophet Jeremiah,

"Thus says the LORD: I am going to restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob, and have compassion on his dwellings; the city shall be rebuilt upon its mound, and the citadel set on its rightful site." - Jeremiah 30:18

From the prophecy of Jeremiah to the time of Cyrus the time of the exile was 70 years.

"This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, says the Lord, making the land an everlasting waste.I will bring upon that land all the words that I have uttered against it, everything written in this book, which Jeremiah prophesied against all the nations. For many nations and great kings shall make slaves of them also; and I will repay them according to their deeds and the work of their hands." - Jeremiah 25:11-14

Cyrus is "messiah, the prince" in Daniel. It is Cyrus who, as the anointed of God, returned the Jews to the Land, and under the governor Zerubbabel Jerusalem and the Temple were rebuilt and restored.



"Thus says the LORD to His messiah, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped to subdue the nations before him and strip kings of their robes, to open doors before him--and the gates shall not be closed." - Isaiah 45:1

-CryptoLutheran

Nothing that you quoted points to Cyrus as the Messiah.
From the command to restore and build Jerusalem UNTO THE MESSIAH THE PRINCE. If Cyrus gave the command to rebuild Jerusalem, then from that command to the MESSIAH THE PRINCE, shall be 7 weeks, and threescore and 2 weeks.

Isa 45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

Cyrus was not Messiah.

 

[mmksparbud]

No angel is our prince.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I have never seen a debate go so off topic.

Must be because of the thread title.

Hate attracts like smell all sorts of flies.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Nothing that you quoted points to Cyrus as the Messiah.
From the command to restore and build Jerusalem UNTO THE MESSIAH THE PRINCE. If Cyrus gave the command to rebuild Jerusalem, then from that command to the MESSIAH THE PRINCE, shall be 7 weeks, and threescore and 2 weeks.

And I'm saying that the seventy weeks doesn't begin with Cyrus' command to rebuild Jerusalem, it began with Jeremiah's prophecy, the seventy weeks covers the period of the Babylonian Exile.

Isa 45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

Cyrus was not Messiah.

You do know what the word "messiah" means right?

כֹּה־אָמַר יְהוָה לִמְשִׁיחֹו

"koh-amar YHVH l'meshychw"

"Thus-says YHVH to-His-meshiach" Meshiach, Messiah.

לִמְשִׁיחֹו contains the prefix lamed, indicating "to" "for" and the suffix vav, indicating third person singular posessive noun. Thus מְשִׁיחֹ (meshiach) is sandwiched between the prefix and suffix, "to his meshiach".

The word meshiach means "anointed". Transliterated into Greek it becomes messias (μεσσίας). In English it becomes "messiah". Translated into Greek it becomes christos (χριστός), also meaning "anointed".

So changing the word from "messiah" to "anointed" doesn't change the meaning of the text: God calls Cyrus "messiah", "anointed".

It's the same word, by the way, used in Daniel 9:25,

וְתֵדַע וְתַשְׂכֵּל מִן־מֹצָא דָבָר לְהָשִׁיב וְלִבְנֹות יְרֽוּשָׁלִַם עַד־מָשִׁיחַ נָגִיד שָׁבֻעִים שִׁבְעָה וְשָׁבֻעִים שִׁשִּׁים וּשְׁנַיִם תָּשׁוּב וְנִבְנְתָה רְחֹוב וְחָרוּץ וּבְצֹוק הָעִתִּֽים׃

From Jeremiah's prophecy until Cyrus, seven weeks (seventy years); which is just as Jeremiah prophesied in Jeremiah 25. Cyrus is "meshiach naqid" here in Daniel 9:25. Not Jesus, this isn't about the Messiah, but a messiah: Cyrus the Persian.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

No angel is our prince.

And Scripture doesn't say you or I have Michael as our "prince", Gabriel isn't talking to you or me, but to Daniel. Michael was put in charge over Israel as a protector, and thus for Daniel and the Jews Michael was a sar (שַׂר), a captain, a chief, a "prince"--the protector angel of Israel. That is what the Scripture says.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Not true. We consider the Bible writers a key part of the early church - just when other folks wish to ignore them.

As do the Orthodox. If you think we ignire the Bible in favour of post-Biblical commentaries you are mistaken.

Rather the problem is that Scripture simply does not say what you think it says. Consider Joshua 5-6; your coreligionist is convinced that it refers to St. Michael, but he is not mentioned in the text.

Some folks look at Paul's statement in Acts 20:29 "29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. " and say to themselves "oh good - I will only take information from -- AFTER Paul's departure -- ignoring Paul I will just listen to the savage wolves that come in after the first century.

Not everyone will say that of course - so not accusing anyone specifically - but in practice many will choose that course

What St. Paul warns us about, there, in Galatians and elsewhere, are heretical sects. Several of these had popped up by the end of the first century: the Docetae, the Ebionites, the Nicolaitans and various other Gnostics. We also see similiar warnings from St. John.

Because we have a historical record of the early church, and of the heresies, and we know what the heretics believed and how they specifically were "unbiblical" whereas the church was biblical, amd beyond that, because the early Church fathers did actually bother to quote scripture in response to everything from the Trinity to the dating of Pascha to the Eucharist, we can reject conclusively the scurillous accusations of some that the early Church had committed apostasy in contravention of Matthew 16:18.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

You have not read all the posts on here or you would have gotten your answer long ago---It has been said over and over

Jesus Christ is from everlasting to everlasting, He always was and always will be, He is the one and only Son of God, He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, He is Jehovah. He is the great I AM, He is the Captain of the hosts of the Lord, Michael, He is the Alpha and the Omega, God, Savior, Brother, The Lamb, our High Priest, the Burning Bush, He who sits on the right hand of God, the writer of the 10 commandments, the Creator of everything that has ever been made, and much, much more!!!

I agree, and I hope you spend some time sharing this truth with Adventist members on CF.com who reject it.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Michael is not a created being, He is captain of the hosts of the Lord, He is our prince. It is a title along with all those others He has----is He a created Lamb? Is He a created Human High Priest? NO!! They are titles, and Joshua did worship---

os_5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
No angel can make the ground holy!! God alone!!

Right, but once again, the key missing word is "Michael."