Where did the laws of nature come from?

stevevw

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Then why are you talking about Ken Ham?
Someone else brought it up, I was just replying to their post.

As mentioned above, none of these mention anything about the information content of the genomes from the organisms being discussed. Try again.
Depends what you class as information. A bunch of garbled letters can be classed as an increase in info but it doesn't mean anything. For evolution it would come down to fitness in the end as even simple life depends on survival. So in that sense information is not important as mentioned by another poster. But info can also be measured in evolution because there is an increase in the amount of genetic material to produce higher life forms from simple ones. But it comes down to what you class as info as many use the Shannon meaning for info and biological info increases are much more than that.

Anyway, who cares? You were talking about macroevoluton which in biologist terms includes the development of new species. Sure, in creationist circles it means "any sort of evolution I can deny and still not look totally ignorant", but since you keep claiming you're not a creationist I'm going to stick with the scientific definition.
First even supporters of evolution can't agree on what is a species. Second last time I looked different species of finches, bats or any creature are all still the same creatures that have the same features and shape. Not much different to you or I or anyone having different shaped and sized noses or overall size or different colored hair. Humans are all the one species yet we have just as much if not more variation that is claimed between different species of the same types of animals like finches. There is no large scale changes to support macroevolution.

The variation within the same type of creature whether they be regarded as having different species is only small ie beak shape, size, color and pattern which is varying pre- existing genetic material. They are all still the same creatures. Apart from a lack of fertile reproduction there is no major changes that indicate macroevolution leading to a creature becoming something entirely new. It is only a assumption that a lack of mating and micro evolution leads to macro evolution of creatures morphing into different types. We have seen the experts get it wrong in the past when deciding what is a new species and what is natural variation within the same species. The variations within the same species can be greater than between different species so this doesn't amount to any evidence.
 
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stevevw

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So do you still agree with your claim that natural selection is negligible in how life changes and develops? Or maybe you should nitpick about how I can't actually believe what you write because who knows what it might really mean?
You know what I have said and what I have meant because I have told you several times. You just choose to ignore this for some reason. Considering I made the original statemnet I think it does come down to what I meant by it and not what you claim it means. That is why I have been nit picking your statements as you say.

As what I originally said was a general statemnet I clarified what I meant by how life changes and develops very early in the debate when you were questioning it. But you seem to be not wanting to accept my own meaning on what I have said and want to push what you think I meant.
So I havnt changed my opinion from my original statement on what I said and meant and not what you think I said or meant.

Maybe it is just me, but I'm still not seeing an answer to my specific question. Which one of these posts of yours is the truth :
I have answered this several times now. As shown before you do miss posts but I am thinking its more than this as I have repeated my answer a few times. I really dont want to have to go back and find the answers again because I have already done that and still you say I havnt answered things.

Again, if I had to continue to post paragraph after paragraph of sophistry to try and avoid a simple question I might stop and reconsider my tactics.
OK then my answer to the above question as I stated earlier without the so called paragraph after paragraph of what you call sophistry is "both statements I made are true" in their context.

What specific post makes it any more reasonable to think that if one understands a claim that they also believe it to be true?
Its elementary my dear Watson. Its the way you and others have explained to me what the paper is suppose to represent and mean and how I am wrong and misreading it. You are not only understanding it, you are taking a position on it as well. If you don't believe in what you are saying and using in that paper to tell me I have a wrong interpretation and what you think is the right interpretation then how and why would you use it as support for showing I am wrong and you are right. The basis and conclusion for that argument is wrong and illogical.

Secondly if you use some parts of the same paper to point out to me that the author is supporting selections fundamental role in evolution which shows you believe the author is correct for at least the parts you are deciding to quote isn't that being hypocritical and quote mining certain parts you have chosen to believe and decide that the author is correct in supporting your views. Why use the author and paper in the first place.
 
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stevevw

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You really need to distinguish between loss of gain of susceptibility to antibiotics (i.e. loss or gain of fitness) and loss or gain of information.

I don't think you understand what information means in genetics.

Substitution mutations change genetic information; deletion mutations reduce genetic information; duplication mutations increase genetic information. Whether that information is beneficial or not is a separate question, and depends on the context. A mutational change of genetic information that reduces overall metabolic efficiency but confers antibiotic resistance will result in a relative reduction in fitness in the absence of the antibiotic, but a relative increase in fitness in its presence. Even deletion mutations can increase fitness.

The overall quantity of information in a genome is not important - one of the largest genomes yet found belongs to an amoeba, Amoeba dubia with 670 billion DNA base pairs, 231 times bigger than the 2.9 billion base pairs found in humans. The vast majority of the information in Amoeba dubia's genome is redundant.

Only fitness for the particular environment matters.
I don't think many people really understand what information represents in biology/genetics. When someone challenges that evolution cannot produce new info the first thing that is mentioned is "what do you class information as". Most people tend to use a Shannon understanding of info when it comes to evolution. But when it comes to biology information is also functional. Shannon information does not explain the type of information in molecular biology. So in that sense fitness is related to information because function is related to fitness.
Functional information and the emergence of biocomplexity
Abstract: Complex emergent systems of many interacting components, including complex biological systems, have the potential to perform quantifiable functions. Accordingly, we define ‘functional information,’ I(Ex), as a measure of system complexity
http://www.pnas.org/content/104/suppl_1/8574.full

Measuring the functional sequence complexity of proteins
Excerpt: We have extended Shannon uncertainty by incorporating the data variable with a functionality variable. The resulting measured unit, which we call Functional bit (Fit), is calculated from the sequence data jointly with the defined functionality variable. To demonstrate the relevance to functional bioinformatics, a method to measure functional sequence complexity was developed and applied to 35 protein families.,,,
http://www.tbiomed.com/content/4/1/47
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I don't think many people really understand what information represents in biology/genetics...
As that article says, 'functional information' is a measure of system complexity - it's a specialized definition of information. And if you're talking about functional information, then firstly, you need to say so; and secondly, you have to allow that it necessarily increases when mutation results in new function(s) and/or complexity.

As has already been discussed, it's likely that evolution produces complexity by mainly non-adaptive processes, and that necessarily means functional information increases.
 
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KCfromNC

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Unexpectedly small effects of mutations in bacteria bring new perspectives - November 2010

Excerpt: Most mutations in the genes of the Salmonella bacterium have a surprisingly small negative impact on bacterial fitness.

I'm really interested in the thought processes which would drive an amateur to think that they've overturned well established science because they've been able to dig up one paper which might show an exception to that science.
 
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KCfromNC

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Depends what you class as information. A bunch of garbled letters can be classed as an increase in info but it doesn't mean anything.

I notice you don't do anything to clarify what you actually mean by information. As such, I see no point in saying much about this other than you can't seem to define what you think you disagree with. It is all a lot of pointless hot air.

First even supporters of evolution can't agree on what is a species. Second last time I looked different species of finches, bats or any creature are all still the same creatures that have the same features and shape.

If they're the same creatures why are they different? Oh, wait, they're different creatures but the same created kind, right?

There is no large scale changes to support macroevolution.

Since that's not the definition of macroevolution I don't understand why you think this sentence makes any sense.

The variation within the same type of creature whether they be regarded as having different species is only small ie beak shape, size, color and pattern which is varying pre- existing genetic material.

Citation needed. I've asked you to provide evidence for this sort of claim before and you had no luck. Weird you'd repeat the same error again.

Apart from a lack of fertile reproduction there is no major changes that indicate macroevolution leading to a creature becoming something entirely new.

Why are you making up nonsense about creatures magically poofing into entirely new ones?

It is only a assumption that a lack of mating and micro evolution leads to macro evolution of creatures morphing into different types.We have seen the experts get it wrong in the past when deciding what is a new species and what is natural variation within the same species.

If there are observations of different creatures for scientists to argue over then they aren't relying on assumptions. We've been over this before - when there's evidence that's a conclusion, not an assumption. Communication is easier when you use the same meanings for words as everyone else rather than trying to be sneaky and make up totally different ones.
 
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KCfromNC

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You know what I have said and what I have meant because I have told you several times. You just choose to ignore this for some reason. Considering I made the original statemnet I think it does come down to what I meant by it and not what you claim it means. That is why I have been nit picking your statements as you say.

As what I originally said was a general statemnet I clarified what I meant by how life changes and develops very early in the debate when you were questioning it. But you seem to be not wanting to accept my own meaning on what I have said and want to push what you think I meant.
So I havnt changed my opinion from my original statement on what I said and meant and not what you think I said or meant.

Yeah, that's an honest and spin-free explanation.

The fact you need two paragraphs to try and weasel out of a simple yes or no question is pretty telling. After all those words we still have no idea if you accept your source's claim that natural selection is a fundamental force driving evolution or if instead "Darwin's theory of evolution has little influence on how life changes".

I have answered this several times now.As shown before you do miss posts but I am thinking its more than this as I have repeated my answer a few times. I really dont want to have to go back and find the answers again because I have already done that and still you say I havnt answered things.

If it is too much work, just color or highlight which quote here wasn't a lie :

OK then my answer to the above question as I stated earlier without the so called paragraph after paragraph of what you call sophistry is "both statements I made are true" in their context.

What context would make these two claims both true?

Oh sorry thats right you also acknowledged that natural selection is insufficient for the origin of complex organisms
I didn't say you acknowledge that natural selection was insufficient for the origin of complex organisms.

Seems pretty obvious to me that one contradicts the other. Feel free to explain, though, I need some entertainment.

You are not only understanding it, you are taking a position on it as well.

Which position is that?

If you don't believe in what you are saying and using in that paper to tell me I have a wrong interpretation and what you think is the right interpretation then how and why would you use it as support for showing I am wrong and you are right.

I've already answered this - the point is your own source contradicts your claims. And you didn't realize it did until others pointed it out to you. That should stop and make you think about what you can hope to accomplish in the path you've chosen to take here.
 
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stevevw

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I'm really interested in the thought processes which would drive an amateur to think that they've overturned well established science because they've been able to dig up one paper which might show an exception to that science.
Who said anything about overturning well established science. It seems you may be are still fixated on wrong assumptions such as turning someone questioning of evolution into rejecting it. There are many experts who are questioning the claimed tenets of evolution. I am just pointing that out so its not just me but the referencing of the experts work and opinion that you need to question as well. It seems the more as time has gone by the more Darwin's theory has been questioned.
 
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stevevw

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Yeah, that's an honest and spin-free explanation.

The fact you need two paragraphs to try and weasel out of a simple yes or no question is pretty telling. After all those words we still have no idea if you accept your source's claim that natural selection is a fundamental force driving evolution or if instead "Darwin's theory of evolution has little influence on how life changes".
I dont know about any spin as I have told you the answer to this time and time again quite clearly in the past. The fact that you need to ask this question again makes me wonder if you are really interested in finding out or just want to make more accusations.

You know I have said many times that I accept that natural selection is a fundamental driving force for evolution. You know that I also said that selections role for evolving the genomic networks and structures that are central for building complex life is negligible, insufficient and incapable. As you also know that I have said that what I meant by how life changes and develops meant the genetic mechanisms for building life then I cant see how you dont get it by now. I chose that paper and made my quote about evolution based on this.

You would like things to be restricted to answers of yes and no because you would like to misrepresented and read things into answers by saying yes and no also means other things. The point is even if you say you dont believe in what the paper states you have acknowledged the paper says that when it comes to the mechanisms for building complex life selection is negligible and insufficient. So you can't deny that I do believe this and take this position. So at the very least you have acknowledge that what I believe is supported by the paper.
This is what I based my original statemnet and that is why I used the word negligible because that is what the paper said.

If it is too much work, just color or highlight which quote here wasn't a lie :
See so now it comes down demeaning the person to make your point. In what way have I lied.

What context would make these two claims both true?
Well first off you have continually posted the two statements the wrong way around to make it look like I first said you acknowledged that selection was insufficient and then later said I didn't say that which is a misrepresentation of what happened and deceptive. I said the bottom statemnet first at an earlier date to a completely different point than the top statemnet. So you have conveniently tried to link the two as though they are responding to the same point. That is using things out of context.

The bottom remark where I said I didn't say that you said selection was insufficient was to your original accusation in saying I did out rightly said this without qualifying that I said you acknowledged the paper had said it. I clarified that I was saying that you acknowledged the paper was saying this if you go back and look. The top remark was said at a later date and after the other remark when I reassessed your original comment and stated that if you acknowledged that the paper said this then you are also acknowledging that you support what was said by your own logic.

By flipping the two comments around you are being deceptive intentionally or not. If you are going to make accusations you need to get things right. By the examples of your other accusations which I have shown that you were wrong and for which you have not replied to why you made them without any support shows it is not the first time you have tried to undermine me. Considering the whole debate has turned to these accusations seems to me to be a deliberate effort to discredit the person rather than engage in the debate. As I said it is beginning to deteriorate now.

Seems pretty obvious to me that one contradicts the other. Feel free to explain, though, I need some entertainment.
Like I said I could go and find remarks you have made and put them in a way that makes you look like you have contradicted yourself. But why bother.

Which position is that?
Huh I stated the position right after the part that says you are taking a position. Why do you cut out the important parts and then ask them again. As I said in the original post "the position that if you dont believe what you are using to disprove my position then why use it. How do you take a stand on something you dont believe in to discredit me.

I've already answered this - the point is your own source contradicts your claims. And you didn't realize it did until others pointed it out to you. That should stop and make you think about what you can hope to accomplish in the path you've chosen to take here.
Of course I knew that the paper stated this. The section for that was directly above the part I quoted and its written in plain English for which I read as part of that section. That wasn't my point from the paper and I have been trying to get that message across ever since.

The overall point from the paper was that natural selection was being given more power and ability than many biologists had made out and it was correcting that myth. That selection was insufficient and negligible for building complex life. I never said that selection played a zero role in evolution just a minimum role for the evolution of complex life. Add to this that this was only one of several papers which you have decided to focus on which also support what I said.
 
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KCfromNC

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Well first off you have continually posted the two statements the wrong way around to make it look like I first said you acknowledged that selection was insufficient and then later said I didn't say that which is a misrepresentation of what happened and deceptive.

First quote is from Oct 4th. Second is from a post a month later. Want to tell us all what you edited out of that more recent post after I quoted it?
 
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VirOptimus

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-snip- It seems the more as time has gone by the more Darwin's theory has been questioned.

This is completely false.

The ToE is one of the, if not the most, supported scientific theories we have.

The only reason you question it is your religion (which you have yourself admitted in a post here).
 
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stevevw

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First quote is from Oct 4th. Second is from a post a month later. Want to tell us all what you edited out of that more recent post after I quoted it?
The 2nd quote you have listed is from an ongoing conversation that had been going for long before early November even back to July. It was a different point I was making about how you kept asking where me to support my remark that you acknowledged that selection was negligible for complex life. I had said several times that I was saying you were admitting that the paper had said this. The quote example you have posted is only one of them and well after the first time I mentioned this. IE
Jul 22, 2016 #1410
Stevevw said
You also stated that the paper was referring to the capabilities of natural selection evolving complex organisms
Oct 5, 2016 #1869
Stevevw said
So considering that you have already acknowledged that the paper is referring to natural selections ability for the origins of complex life then what else do you believe about natural selection.
Oct 8, 2016 #1879
KCfromNC said
That's nice. Are you ever going to get around to backing up your claim that I said that "natural selection is insufficient for the origin of complex organisms"? Or if you can't find a quote saying that, perhaps consider apologizing for making things up.
Stevevw said
Now your changing what I said. I stated that from memory you admitted that the papers said that natural selection was negligible and insufficient for evolving complex life. Or more precisely you said the papers were not referring to complex life or specific situations involving complexity and not in a general sense. IE
Oct 1, 2016 #1845
Stevevw said
I think I have clarified on many occasions now that it is referring to certain aspects being the evolution of many aspects of genomic, cellular and development evolution. I think you also acknowledged this in a round about way. So whats the problem. You are assuming the rest and that is what is getting you into trouble.

So the above statements show that the same statement you have posted from me was mentioned well before the other statemnet which I said after the 2nd statemnet and not before it. I said the first statement later when I assessed that you actually were admitting that selection was negligible for the networks that build complex life from taking into consideration your own logic about believing what you post and that you were taking a position by using that statement. But when you don't use those quotes in their proper context you are changing things and giving the wrong impression.

By the way I havnt changed anything in those posts as thy havnt been edited. So I dont know what you are talking about. Is this just more un founded accusations.
 
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KCfromNC

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The 2nd quote you have listed is from an ongoing conversation that had been going for long before early November even back to July.

This would be more convincing if you actually found the second quote in an older post. But for some reason you can't do that. Hmm, I wonder why...

KCfromNC said
That's nice. Are you ever going to get around to backing up your claim that I said that "natural selection is insufficient for the origin of complex organisms"?
Stevevw said
Now your changing what I said.

Nope, that was a direct quote.

Oh sorry thats right you also acknowledged that natural selection is insufficient for the origin of complex organisms

I corrected you on the this last time you posted it. This whole "accuse others of lying to cover up for mistakes" things seems to be a pattern in your writing.

By the way I havnt changed anything in those posts as thy havnt been edited. So I dont know what you are talking about.

Click on the arrow next to this quote where you say you never said what you did in my previous quote of you:

I didn't say you acknowledge that natural selection was insufficient for the origin of complex organisms.

Note that the post it refers to was edited. That means you changed it. Other people had no problem finding this, I'm not sure why you're having so much difficulty with it.

And if you hover over the edited on text it shows that it was edited after I first quoted it. And now you're accusing me of being dishonest by quoting it. Do you really think everyone else is that gullible?

If you're going to play that game, you should have at least tried it before throwing out a bunch of other random excuses for why these quotes didn't contradict. But since you've already done that turning around now and pretending the quote didn't come from the post you edited makes it look kinda fishy, to say the least.
 
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KCfromNC

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This is completely false.

Hey, in his defense he never said what the answer was... :)

But more seriously, be prepared for lots of words games centering on the difference between Darwinism and the modern synthesis. Imply and deny and all that.
 
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stevevw

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If you notice the edit is done on the same day as the post was made. It isn't a later edit. Considering that the accusations were only recently made well after the 4th November I cant see how editing back then matters, unless you think I can read the future and know what accusations are going to be thrown at me LOL.
 
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stevevw

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This would be more convincing if you actually found the second quote in an older post. But for some reason you can't do that. Hmm, I wonder why...



Nope, that was a direct quote.



I corrected you on the this last time you posted it. This whole "accuse others of lying to cover up for mistakes" things seems to be a pattern in your writing.



Click on the arrow next to this quote where you say you never said what you did in my previous quote of you:



Note that the post it refers to was edited. That means you changed it. Other people had no problem finding this, I'm not sure why you're having so much difficulty with it.

And if you hover over the edited on text it shows that it was edited after I first quoted it. And now you're accusing me of being dishonest by quoting it. Do you really think everyone else is that gullible?

If you're going to play that game, you should have at least tried it before throwing out a bunch of other random excuses for why these quotes didn't contradict. But since you've already done that turning around now and pretending the quote didn't come from the post you edited makes it look kinda fishy, to say the least.
So what is your point. I am saying that I made this point that I didn't say you were directly saying that selection is negligible for complex life earlier than the one on the 4/11 before you made your accusations and before the first post which states I reassessed things. IE
Oct 8, 2016 #1879
Stevevw said
Now your changing what I said. I stated that from memory you admitted that the papers said that natural selection was negligible and insufficient for evolving complex life. Or more precisely you said the papers were not referring to complex life or specific situations involving complexity and not in a general sense. IE

Like I said I could go on a Spanish inquisition and find all the contradictions which I have already shown one of for which you ignored but this is all irrelevant to the debate and frankly attacking a person. How does this change the debate and what has been said. Now looking at your replies just about all of them are making one form of derogatory statemnet or another towards me which shows you are engaging in character attacks rather than debate.
 
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KCfromNC

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If you notice the edit is done on the same day as the post was made.

Yep, you made the edit about a half hour after I first pointed out the contradiction in post 1977. I'm sure those two facts are totally unrelated, though.

Considering that the accusations were only recently made well after the 4th November
This is simply not true. See the end of this post where I identified the problem : Where did the laws of nature come from?. You'll notice the date on that post is Nov 4th.

So any other excuses you want to try? The list is getting kinda long but there's always room for more.
 
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KCfromNC

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So what is your point.

That you'd have better luck convincing people that your accusation that I deceptively put the quotes out of order if you'd actually point to the posts they came from. But for some reason instead you're talking about a bunch of unrelated posts - which tells me you've made yet another baseless accusation.

I am saying that I made this point that I didn't say you were directly saying that selection is negligible for complex life earlier than the one on the 4/11 before you made your accusations and before the first post which states I reassessed things. IE
Oct 8, 2016 #1879

A quote from Oct 8th isn't before the 4th. It doesn't have much to do with your claim that I posted things out of order. What's your point, other than to demonstrate that rather than admitting you were making stuff up about me that you tried to pretend you never said it.
 
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stevevw

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I'm really interested in the thought processes which would drive an amateur to think that they've overturned well established science because they've been able to dig up one paper which might show an exception to that science.
Many papers state that there are mostly small deleterious effects from mutations. What some class as neutral affects is actually a creature tolerating the deleterious effect but they are still small deleterious effects. What has been classed as a benefits usually comes at a cost to fitness and over the long run will gradually build up and have a greater negative effect. But I am surprised you say that I have supplied only 1 paper. In the time we have been debating I must have supplied at least 5 or 6 which shows how you dismiss these papers. IE

Stability effects of mutations and protein evolvability. October 2009
Excerpt: The accepted paradigm that proteins can tolerate nearly any amino acid substitution has been replaced by the view that the deleterious effects of mutations, and especially their tendency to undermine the thermodynamic and kinetic stability of protein, is a major constraint on protein evolvability,,
Stability effects of mutations and protein evolvability. - PubMed - NCBI

Harmful mutations can fly under the radar
Every time a cell divides, genetic errors can occur, leading to variations in the DNA sequence that may proliferate and—in some cases—cause disease. Now that genetic sequencing and other technologies have made it easier to recognize mutations that occur in only a subset of cells, researchers are finding more and more harmful mutations hidden among unaffected cells. These findings suggest that in some cases, standard genetic tests in the clinic may be overlooking the underlying cause of genetic disease and underestimating a person's risk of passing such mutations on to their children.
Harmful mutations can fly under the radar | Science

Harmful protein-coding mutations in people arose largely in the past 5,000 to 10,000 years
Over 86 percent of the harmful protein-coding mutations of this type arose in humans just during the past 5,000 to 10,000 years. Some of the remaining mutations of this nature may have no effect on people, and a few might be beneficial, according to the project researchers. While each specific mutation is rare, the findings suggest that the human population acquired an abundance of these single-nucleotide genetic variants in a relatively short time.
http://www.nature.com/news/200.....9.864.html

So the above paper is more or less showing that for 100s of thousand of years maybe millions human hardly received any harmful mutations and then in the last few thousand years we have received most of our DNA damage from mutations. This must be a surprise to supporters of evolution as they believe humans have been around for a couple of hundred thousand years.

Experimental evolution, loss-of-function mutations, and “the first rule of adaptive evolution”
I show that by far the most common adaptive changes seen in those examples are due to the loss or modification of a pre-existing molecular function, and I discuss the possible reasons for the prominence of such mutations.
Experimental evolution, loss-of-function mutations, and "the first rule of adaptive evolution". - PubMed - NCBI

Mutations Accelerate Each Other’s Damage (my emphasis)

Diminishing Returns Epistasis Among Beneficial Mutations Decelerates Adaptation
These results provide the first evidence that patterns of epistasis may differ for within- and between-gene interactions during adaptation and that diminishing returns epistasis contributes to the consistent observation of decelerating fitness gains during adaptation.
Diminishing Returns Epistasis Among Beneficial Mutations Decelerates Adaptation | Science

Negative Epistasis Between Beneficial Mutations in an Evolving Bacterial Population
We analyzed the effects of epistasis on fitness for the first five mutations to fix in an experimental population of Escherichia coli. Epistasis depended on the effects of the combined mutations—the larger the expected benefit, the more negative the epistatic effect. Epistasis thus tended to produce diminishing returns with genotype fitness,
Negative Epistasis Between Beneficial Mutations in an Evolving Bacterial Population | Science

Robustness–epistasis link shapes the fitness landscape of a randomly drifting protein
Threshold robustness is inherently epistatic—once the stability threshold is exhausted, the deleterious effects of mutations become fully pronounced, thereby making proteins far less robust than generally assumed.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v444/n7121/full/nature05385.html

“Mutations, in summary, tend to induce sickness, death, or deficiencies. No evidence in the vast literature of heredity change shows unambiguous evidence that random mutation itself, even with geographical isolation of populations leads to speciation.”
Lynn Margulis - Acquiring Genomes [2003], p. 29.
Microbial Muddles


Beyond A ‘Speed Limit’ On Mutations, Species Risk Extinction
Excerpt: Shakhnovich’s group found that for most organisms, including viruses and bacteria, an organism’s rate of genome mutation must stay below 6 mutations per genome per generation to prevent the accumulation of too many potentially lethal changes in genetic material.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....172753.htm

Estimation of spontaneous genome-wide mutation rate parameters: whither beneficial mutations?
Abstract……It is argued that, although most if not all mutations detected in mutation accumulation experiments are deleterious, the question of the rate of favourable mutations (and their effects) is still a matter for debate.
http://www.nature.com/hdy/jour.....7270a.html

So heres a few and there's plenty more if you want. So it aint just one paper.
 
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