My Stupid Challenge

[TagliatelliMonster]

You will get your evidence

The witnesses will testify
You just don't believe them

But this does nothing to change what is TRUE and TRUTH

Testimonies can be wrong, mistaken, lies,...
In fact, testimony is the least reliable form of evidence known to man.

Empirical evidence trumps testimony. Always.

You agree with this, because you don't accept the testimonies of muslims, hindu's shintoists, scientologists, alien abductees, etc..

The only "testimonies" you do accept at face value, are those testimonies that say things that you already believe.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No one can "see" THE KINGDOM of GOD unless they are born again

Translation: you need to believe it first, before you can believe it.

This not sense does make.

What is hidden from fleshly eyes can only be seen if GOD opens the (eyes and ears of the) heart to THE TRUTH of HIS WORD

Then your god is tinkering with free will and ultimately responsible for the "sin" of not believing.

This means that IF this god you speak of is real, that it is his fault that I can't rationally be justified in believing it... since he is actively refusing to "open my eyes and ears".

 

[miknik5]

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT GOD. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT EVIDENCE FOR ADAM. HOW ARE YOU NOT GETTING THIS?

Because GOD created the original design for man sir

But certain men keep thinking that this overlay and this evolving to is somehow moving to a point of a perfected completion

It isn't

It is actually a moving further and further from the TRUTH

Creation is winding down

Any temporary tinkering of the genes of men to bring forth a "super quality human" is still a temporal patch up

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Because GOD created the original design for man sir

But certain men keep thinking that this overlay and this evolving to is somehow moving to a point of a perfected completion

Do you have any physical evidence for Adam having existed: yes or no?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If there is no evidence of something then that something did not exist.

To play devil's advocate for a second... that's not very accurate.
Absence of evidence isn't (necessarily) evidence of absence.

If there is no available evidence that X existed, it doesn't necessarily mean that X didn't exist. It can also mean that X did in fact exist, but that the evidence that demonstrated X to exist, has been lost one way or the other.

However, when it comes to the biblical Adam... that's a whole other story.
Because not only is there no evidence to support his existance... ALL the evidence actually points to the contrary.

The evidence points to evolution. There never was a "first human".
So in this particular case... the evidence actually demonstrates the biblical Adam to be nothing but a myth.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I can't say so because I told you I do have the evidence

If you can't share this evidence, then you don't have any evidence. Then all you have are claims and assertions.

 

[miknik5]

i am a simple house wife but an experience I went through over a 3 somewhat year period gave me the understanding of certain things that I can't stomach. Or at least as I was going through it I couldn't stomach it.
But now. I am at peace
I understand so that what I went through personally was so that I would open my mouth

I still can't speak about what I went through but suffice it to say that when HE who holds all things back is taken out of the way nothing will hold

HE, by HIS everyday GRACE, held all things together so that we were never totally consumed

But when nothing holds there will be no ability to reason to make sense out of it all because the evidence before us will make NO SENSE at all!

 

[miknik5]

i am a simple house wife but an experience I went through over a 3 somewhat year period gave me the understanding of certain things that I can't stomach. Or at least as I was going through it I couldn't stomach it.
But now. I am at peace
I understand so that what I went through personally was so that I would open my mouth

I still can't speak about what I went through but suffice it to say that when HE who holds all things back is taken out of the way nothing will hold

HE, by HIS everyday GRACE, held all things together so that we were never totally consumed

But when nothing holds there will be no ability to reason to make sense out of it all because the evidence before us will make NO SENSE at all!

Testimonies can be wrong, mistaken, lies,...
In fact, testimony is the least reliable form of evidence known to man.

Empirical evidence trumps testimony. Always.

You agree with this, because you don't accept the testimonies of muslims, hindu's shintoists, scientologists, alien abductees, etc..

The only "testimonies" you do accept at face value, are those testimonies that say things that you already believe.

Sir?
Jeremiah 31, John 3:8, 1 John 2:27 are TRUTH

I testify to this
And it is TRUTH

I was on maternity leave in the quiet of my house when "THE WIND" blew in

 

[miknik5]

And here's an interesting thought, one poster suggested maybe a "different" spirit

One is willing to acknowledge "other spirits" and a spiritual realm

JUST NOT GOD?!!

 

[Kenny'sID]

How is pointing out that you are misrepresenting my actual position, "spin"?



What spin? What subject changing??


Yeah, sure... whatever helps you in avoiding the points we actually are making.

Yeah man, that's me, never addressing anything and always evading, but, that's right, you know better....

More spin.

A word to the wise, (or whoever) grasshopper...Spin is much, if not exactly like lies, when we spin here, and are called on it, we have to keep spinning there in order to cover the first, and so on.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Sir?
Jeremiah 31, John 3:8, 1 John 2:27 are TRUTH

That is a claim, which is in need of supportive evidence. You believing your own claims, is not such evidence.

I testify to this
And it is TRUTH

Muslims say the exact same about their religion and scriptures.
How can I, as an outsider, differentiate between your claims and the claims of muslims?

I was on maternity leave in the quiet of my house when "THE WIND" blew in

I don't doubt that you had some "personal experience", just like I don't doubt that muslims etc had some "personal experience".

The matter at hand however, is both your interpretations of such experiences.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I still can't speak about what I went through

Then we have no way of making any kind of assessment of your "experience" and your entire claim becomes rather irrelevant.

 

[miknik5]

That is a claim, which is in need of supportive evidence. You believing your own claims, is not such evidence.



Muslims say the exact same about their religion and scriptures.
How can I, as an outsider, differentiate between your claims and the claims of muslims?



I don't doubt that you had some "personal experience", just like I don't doubt that muslims etc had some "personal experience".

The matter at hand however, is both your interpretations of such experiences.

Believing my own claim?

You're not understanding sir

When THE STRONG MAN comes...,the one to whom HE has come...knows it

I didn't believe until
GOD did for me what I could not do for myself

Reveal THE TRUTHE of HIS SON to me

Before "THE WIND" blew in I knew nothing

Afterwards I knew everything

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yeah man, that's me, never addressing anything and always evading, but, that's right, you know better....

More spin.

A word to the wise, (or whoever) grasshopper...Spin is much, if not exactly like lies, when we spin here, and are called on it, we have to keep spinning there in order to cover the first, and so on.

Hey man, I'm just asking you question so that you may clarify what you are talking about.

Apparantly, that counts as "spin" also.


Let's not forget that this whole thing started because you claimed it was "inaccurate" for me to say that it is perfectly okay to accept that an expert likely has more expertise in the subject he is an expert in, as opposed to someone who isn't such an expert.

Now look what that point turned into...

And *I* am the one who's "spinning" and "changing the subject", ha?

Whenever you are ready to acknowledge that it is rather rational to favour the expertise of an expert over the opinions of non-experts...
And that, by extension, your accusations of me making "inaccurate statements" were wrong on that point....

I don't expect you to admit that though.
Instead, you'll just spin and change topics and then turn around and accuse me of doing that.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Is it really worth it Kenny? Many members have tried on different threads and you dismiss it out of hand. Too simple an example you will dismiss as opinion, too complex and you will say you can't be bothered learning about such nonsense. I am not implying that you are stupid BTW, I know you aren't, but even the sentence you've posted above implies that your mind is made up and nothing will change it. Such close mindedness is not a virtue in my opinion.




I was under the impression that that is the general consensus, I'm prepared to be corrected as it doesn't make much difference to me.

However, I do accept the scholarly view that the Pentateuch wasn't written until much much later than events like the Creation story, flood etc.

Scholars in the first half of the 20th century came to the conclusion that the Yahwist was produced in the monarchic period, specifically at the court of Solomon, 10th century BCE, and the Priestly work in the middle of the 5th century BCE (the author was even identified as Ezra), but more recent thinking is that the Yahwist was written either just before or during the Babylonian exile of the 6th century BCE, and the Priestly final edition was made late in the Exilic period or soon after.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Genesis




No, it's completely different. Darwin has provided us with a workable framework and it's that that's important, not the man.

Ok, that's fine, if your not concerned enough to give example, we'll just go with the problem is mine because I haven't agreed with examples in the past, I mean it must be me, right? That's a given. And FWIW, it's is a given for both of us that I wouldn't agree, but that wasn't the point, the point was my making a point with the info, not about just arguing another example.

God provided one hell of a framework. Prove it? Prove yours.

 

[miknik5]

Then we have no way of making any kind of assessment of your "experience" and your entire claim becomes rather irrelevant.

You don't need to know the personal details

I have already pointed you to 2 Thessalonians 2

You hold to this long held faith and truth that the things of this world which have normally long held should continue to do so

I am saying that when HE let's go they won't

And too many will attribute all the chaos to GOD

They shouldn't
They are not understanding that HE was the ONE who held all things back but when HE let's go, Satan will have full reign and evil will run rampant

And all temporal
things including our minds, our health, our imperfect unexpressed DNA will be affected

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Believing my own claim?
You're not understanding sir

I understand very well. You are not the first theist I talk to who can't differentiate between religious doctrine/claims and actual evidence.

When THE STRONG MAN comes...,the one to whom HE has come...knows it

I didn't believe until
GOD did for me what I could not do for myself

Reveal THE TRUTHE of HIS SON to me

Before "THE WIND" blew in I knew nothing

Afterwards I knew everything

All you are saying is that you believe it. I already know you believe it.
Muslims believe it to.
So do alien abductees.

All of them had a "personal experience".
But clearly their personal experiences conflict with yours.

You can't both be right. But you can both be wrong.

The question is ... how to find out?

And to answer that question, you require evidence.
Got any?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Hey man, I'm just asking you question so that you may clarify what you are talking about.

Apparantly, that counts as "spin" also.


Let's not forget that this whole thing started because you claimed it was "inaccurate" for me to say that it is perfectly okay to accept that an expert likely has more expertise in the subject he is an expert in, as opposed to someone who isn't such an expert.

Now look what that point turned into...

And *I* am the one who's "spinning" and "changing the subject", ha?

Whenever you are ready to acknowledge that it is rather rational to favour the expertise of an expert over the opinions of non-experts...
And that, by extension, your accusations of me making "inaccurate statements" were wrong on that point....

I don't expect you to admit that though.
Instead, you'll just spin and change topics and then turn around and accuse me of doing that.

 

[miknik5]

Thus is why I said turning out a beautiful outward package does not necessarily go hand in hand with an inwardly beautiful package

If that had worked from the beginning GOD would not have had to send HIS SON

 

[Paul Finch]

CHRIST spoke about this when HE said "in them is the prophecy of Isaiah fulfilled"
Sir
No one can "see" THE KINGDOM of GOD unless they are born again
What is hidden from fleshly eyes can only be seen if GOD opens the (eyes and ears of the) heart to THE TRUTH of HIS WORD

Sounds like the Kings new clothes all over again to me, only the people who believe they can see the new clothes can see the new clothes for all the others there are no new clothes and the King is naked.