Are there credible witnesses to the resurrection?

[Alla27]

Where was the HOLY SPIRIT when HE witnessed and testified to THE TRUTH of CHRIST's crucifixion, resurrection and ascension?,

He was where Jesus was during crucifixion, resurrection and ascension.

 

[Alla27]

Because there is only ONE HOLY SPIRIT

And CHRIST lives

OooK,
I still don't get it why it matters where the Holy Ghost was.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf, I'm still not seeing anything close to a credible witness to the resurrection in the things you write. And that is the whole point of this thread. Do we have credible witnesses to the resurrection?

Besides the skeptic Paul as I have mentioned, James the brother of Jesus was also a skeptic who saw the risen Christ.

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Ed: No, there is a large number of scholars that believe it goes to verse 7. Such as Crossan, Habermas, Reginald Fuller, among many others.

dm: And there are a large number of scholars that say "the creed" does not go beyond verse 5, that at least some of the sightings of Jesus mentioned in those later verses were not part of an early creed. Price writes:

Almost all would bracket the mentions of the 500 brethren (v. 6) and of Paul himself (vv. 8-10) as Pauline additions to the formula. (source)

And Price is a scholar and has multiple footnotes about his points.

If almost all scholars exclude the mention of the 500 from the "early creed", you simply cannot claim that the consensus of scholarship agrees with you.

Well apparently your Dr. Price is mistaken about "almost all scholars".

ed: Galatians 1:11-12, emphasis added

dm: Paul says he did not receive his gospel from men. You cannot simply ignore that, and then state that Paul copies his gospel verbatim from men in I Corinthians 15.

I didn't say that. Do you even read my posts or even Pauls letters?

ed: But Paul and the disciples were not in the Diaspora.

dm: Wait, what?

Paul was of Tarsus, far from Jerusalem. And his followers were spread throughout Asia minor. Many of his followers were not even Jews. So yes, Paul and his followers were far from Jerusalem, were living intermixed with Greeks, and were including Greeks in their fellowship. It is no surprise that they may have included some Greek thought in their religion.

I will concede Paul was but not very far. And I was not referring to Paul's followers, I was referring to Jesus' followers. Almost all of them were from the land of Israel and even though from Tarsus, Paul strongly identified with Israel and spent much of his early time there, not with the greeks or their patterns of thought.

ed: Of course, I am not referring to every single jew or even every single sect. I am referring to the majority of mainstream devout jews who revered the Torah of which Paul and most of the disciples belonged.

dm: Wait, what? Paul, after his conversion, belonged to a "majority of mainstream devout Jews who revered the Torah"? Read what Paul writes. He strongly writes about his objections to Jewish laws and customs. It is no surprise to me that Paul might incorporate some Greek thought.

I was referring to prior to his conversion and even afterwards since he believed that Christianity was the fulfillment of mainstream Judaism he still believed many of the basic teachings of Judaism regarding spirituality and spiritual beings as revealed in the OT. So there is absolutely no evidence that he believed that spirits could be killed and buried.

ed: Only very shortly after Paul and they strongly point to a physical resurrection not a spiritual one.

dm: Again, Paul is the earliest witness,

No, James is the earliest skeptical witness. And he also was a devout non diaspora jew who did not believe that a spirit could be killed and buried.

dm: and he says little if anything about a physical body. And the four Gospels and Acts were written later by unknown people who may not have been reliable.

No, there is evidence that the gospels and Acts were written by the authors traditionally attributed to them.

dm: Do you have any reliable witnesses to the resurrection?

Yes, two former skeptics as demonstrated above.

ed: Not entirely a different entity, he doesn't have to be a botanist to know that there is an intrinsic connection between the seed and the plant, ie in a fundamental way they are the same entity but different just as our physical bodies will be different from our resurrected bodies but still physical bodies just as the seed is a physical body as well as the plant. Paul was not dumb he was very well educated and intelligent.

dm: Sure, I agree Paul thought there was a connection between the physical person and the resurrected person. But I Corinthinans 15:36-44 make it clear that the resurrected body was a spiritual body, not the physical body that died.

Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth fromanother star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

All of these things are physical entities, including a spiritual body. If he had meant non material entities he would have said "It is sown a natural body and raised a Spirit." This is common way at the time of expressing such a thing. He would have never brought up all these blatantly physical entities.

dm: He goes on to say that flesh and blood does not enter heaven. He is not talking about flesh and blood coming out of the grave.

Often when Paul mentions the flesh he is referring to worldliness, he means that worldliness will not enter the kingdom of God.

ed: No, this is obvious from the context that it is a metaphor.

dm: Of course Paul sees the body of Christ as a metaphor. That is my point! Why repeat my point?

But again, the only body of Christ that Paul refers to is the church. He never refers to a physical body. It will do you no good to continue to ignore this, because I will keep bringing it up as often as you ignore it.

No, the Church is a partial metaphor for the body of Christ but it also not a metaphor because in a certain mystical sense it IS the body of Christ, ie His presence on earth both spiritually and physically. As shown above Paul mentions Christ body quite often.

 

[miknik5]

The Holy Ghost. He was there. He WITNESSED that event. He knows all the truth and He can testify the truth to anybody PERSONALLY and NOT through the book. You don't need Mathew, or Mark or any other mortal man.
The Holy Ghost is very unique Witness of any true event. He has very CONVINCING power. It is so convincing that you can NOT deny that what He PERSONALLY testifies to you is the truth. Just ask Him.

What has THE HOLY SPIRIT testified to you with regards to THE FATHER and THE SON

He was where Jesus was during crucifixion, resurrection and ascension.

Where exactly

 

[miknik5]

Did CHRIST speak by THE SPIRIT?
And did HE have THE SPIRIT before or after HIS crucifixion?

 

[doubtingmerle]

You don't know? That witness who testifies with our spirit to the Truth. But THAT WITNESS is only in those who have believed GOD's TESTIMONY which HEhas given us of HIS SON

Others have a witness inside them that Mormonism or Islam is true. How do you know you can trust your witness inside you, and they cannot trust theirs?

 

[doubtingmerle]

You can't hear effectively sir. Until GOD opens to you The Truth of HIS WORD you won't be able to hear or understand what is heard and understood only by HIS SPIRIT

1 Corinthians 1-3
Or you can refer to those on the road to Emmaeus
Or you can contemplate John 3:8 or 1 John 2:27

I can hear just fine.

But when your evidence consists of talking to spirit figures, I think your evidence is very weak.

 

[doubtingmerle]

No, but He is so convincing that it is impossible for me to doubt Him. It calls faith in God.

I see, the spirit that testifies to Mormonism is so convincing, it is impossible for you to doubt it.

How is it then that others, who are also convinced by Spirits, do not find your Mormonism so convincing?

 

[miknik5]

Others have a witness inside them that Mormonism or Islam is true. How do you know you can trust your witness inside you, and they cannot trust theirs?

Because many profess to have god(s) but deny THE SON and it is only through JESUS that we have access to THE FATHER....by ONE SPIRIT

THE SPIRIT testifies of THE SON. And we (who have received God's TESTIMONY) have that WITNESS in us and we also testify by THAT ONE SPIRIT who alone is THE SPIRIT of TRUTH

 

[miknik5]

GOD in HIS unfathomable wisdom by sending HIS SON shut up the mouths of every and any other spirit who whispers and mutters anything and everything but The testimony and Truth of JESUS

To the TESTIMONY and THE law

I would point you to 1 John 5 but I know there are some who do not accept this because they say it was added afterwards

But it's TRUTH. there are three that bear record (of us) in Heaven and these three are one... just as there are three that bear record on earth: the water and the blood (natural man) and the spirit and these three agree in the one (man re born of GOD)

 

[Steve Petersen]

GOD in HIS unfathomable wisdom by sending HIS SON shut up the mouths of every and any other spirit who whispers and mutters anything and everything but The testimony and Truth of JESUS

To the TESTIMONY and THE law

I would point you to 1 John 5 but I know there are some who do not accept this because they say it was added afterwards

But it's TRUTH. there are three that bear record (of us) in Heaven and these three are one... just as there are three that bear record on earth: the water and the blood (natural man) and the spirit and these three agree in the one (man re born of GOD)

This talk doesn't help anyone with genuine questions, though it may shore up YOUR defenses.

 

[miknik5]

This talk doesn't help anyone with genuine questions, though it may shore up YOUR defenses.

Isaiah 8 speaks to all sir. And will be the defense to all who seek the LIVING ONE over the dead(spirits)

For in the end many will gather round them whispering spirits who will tickle their itchy ears

Just like Ahab who hated Michaiah the man of GOD who never prophecied anything good concerning him

The question:
Who will cause Ahab to fall is the very same thing which will cause "Ahab" to fall

 

[miknik5]

Bind up the TESTIMONY amongst my disciples

And when they tell you to seek spirits should not a people consult their GOD?

To the dead (spirits) for the LIVING

NEVER

To the TESTIMONY and THE LAW
If they speak not according to THE WORD it is because there is no LIGHT therein

 

[miknik5]

This talk doesn't help anyone with genuine questions, though it may shore up YOUR defenses.

Should I change THE TRUTH?

The REFUGE remains THE REFUGE
And there is only ONE DOOR by which one must enter

 

[Steve Petersen]

Should I change THE TRUTH?

The REFUGE remains THE REFUGE
And there is only ONE DOOR by which one must enter

Everyone has their own version of truth. Why is yours superior?

 

[miknik5]

If all just preached the HIDDEN WISDOM of GOD and this knowledge is understood by all there would be no more need for men to employ the "wisdom" and "reasoning" of men


Which is not greater than THE WISDOM of GOD

But by all means you are free to preach CHRIST as you choose to

Who am I to judge HIS SERVANT?

 

[Alla27]

I see, the spirit that testifies to Mormonism is so convincing, it is impossible for you to doubt it.
How is it then that others, who are also convinced by Spirits, do not find your Mormonism so convincing?

This is really good question.
The honest answer is this: I have no idea. I can not know who testifies to others, and I don't know if they are honest with others and with themselves.
So, if the Holy Ghost personally do not testify to you about resurrection of Christ you can not be convinced that it is the truth.

 

[Alla27]

What has THE HOLY SPIRIT testified to you with regards to THE FATHER and THE SON

Many things. Please, be more specific.

Where exactly

I don't know if God revealed this. It doesn't matter anyway.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Ed1wolf, still waiting for that credible witness you claim.

Besides the skeptic Paul as I have mentioned, James the brother of Jesus was also a skeptic who saw the risen Christ.

I have asked you multiple times to show me where Paul refers to a physical resurrected body or an empty tomb. You have not been able to show this to me. So how does Paul count?

And do you have any writing of James that testifies to a bodily resurrected Jesus? Do you have any written statement of an acquaintance of James that says he saw a bodily resurrected Jesus?

Well apparently your Dr. Price is mistaken about "almost all scholars".

We could start counting scholars and quibble about who was a true scholar but that would get us nowhere. The problem is that you claimed the mention of the 500 is supported by the consensus of scholars. That is false. It is supported by some scholars. Many if not most scholars disagree that it is part of an early creed. So if you want to claim this is part of an early creed, you will need something other than the claim that some (biased) scholars say so. What is your evidence?

I didn't say that. Do you even read my posts or even Pauls letters?

Yes, I read your posts and Paul's letters.

Do you even read your posts?. Because you have been stating over and over that Paul has been quoting this creed that was given to him by the apostles. Now you flip flop, and say he was not quoting verbatim from the apostles! I disagree with the old Ed1wolf, and agree with the changed Ed1wolf. Paul was not quoting a creed verbatim that he learned from the apostles.

In fact, Paul even states that he did not receive his gospel from the apostles. So Paul claims he did not get the ideas from the apostles.

I will concede Paul was but not very far.

Then you are clearly wrong. Paul was from Tarsus, which was a long, long way from Jerusalem in modern Turkey. Paul was indeed with the Jews that had been scattered in the Diaspora. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarsus,_Mersin .

And I was not referring to Paul's followers, I was referring to Jesus' followers.

Oh, you were changing the subject. I had been referring to Paul's followers. Paul and his followers lived in the areas of modern Greece and Turkey. Many of the followers were Gentiles. The mixture of Jews and Gentiles scattered throughout that region would certainly have been open to Greek ideas.

I was referring to prior to his conversion and even afterwards since he believed that Christianity was the fulfillment of mainstream Judaism he still believed many of the basic teachings of Judaism regarding spirituality and spiritual beings as revealed in the OT.

Sure he believed some teachings of Judaism. Nobody is claiming that he didn't.

But he also shares some teachings with contemporary Greek teaching.

So there is absolutely no evidence that he believed that spirits could be killed and buried.

Different subject. In another thread we were discussing whether Paul thought Jesus always was a spirit. In this thread, we are just asking if Paul --or anybody else--thought Jesus resurrected bodily.

No, there is evidence that the gospels and Acts were written by the authors traditionally attributed to them.

Do you have any good evidence that the Gospels and Acts were written by the traditional authors? They were never identified with those books until years after they were written, and there never was good evidence for it.

Often when Paul mentions the flesh he is referring to worldliness, he means that worldliness will not enter the kingdom of God.

Read I Corinthians 15 in context. Clearly when he says flesh and blood will not enter heaven, he means flesh and blood will not enter heaven.

 

[Alla27]

To doubtingmerle, I forgot to say. Because only Spirit or the Holy Ghost can convince you about any truth about Christ or God the Father I don't even try to do Spirit's job. I can only invite you to follow Christ but it is your responsibility to accept the invitation or to reject it. It is your responsibility to ask God to send you this Witness.