Do evolutionists really understand the complexity of things?

[MasonP]

Does it matter? Does it matter?

No it doesn't, the subject is of no consequence, we're just shooting the breeze.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That's because higher academia teaches biologists and geneticists how to play connect-the-dots.

See? Perfect illustration of what I was saying.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

An argument nonetheless.

Yes. Only a fallacious one.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Goddidit is the true 'Unified Theory of Everything'.

Then so is "I did it last thursday".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You choose the one that includes God because God is not the author of confusion.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Left to itself 'evolution' would descend into biological chaos

That is demonstrably false.

with all sorts of goofy critters scurrying around (some, having evolved only one leg would be scurrying in a circle).

Such a creature would not survive and reproduce and thus not spread its genes.
In other words, no.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That's just silly. How do you suppose that natural selection would allow the survival of such unfit variations?

By the grace of god, off course.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So it's really, survival of the fittest, so long as the fittest remains fit?

What is so hard to comprehend about the idea that a perfectly healthy creature can fall victim to an accident?

There's literally a gazillion ways to die, which have nothing whatsoever to do with your biological make up.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So evolution has conveniently stopped working in the case of humans.

First, it hasn't "stopped working". Every newborn still comes with a set of mutations. Just like they always have.
However, these days we have things like medicine and medical science. We have things like electricity, clothing, the comfort of our living rooms and all the food we want (and more) at the supermarket.

We no longer have to hunt.
We no longer are in a struggle to stay warm.
We no longer have to constantly look over our shoulder watching out for dangerous predators.
We no longer die from a common cold.

None of these advantages are the result of genomics. They are the result of technology. Today, there are MANY people spreading their mutated genes that only 100 years ago wouldn't have lived past the age of 5.

This is, by the way, far from convenient. Because what happens is that we effectively shut down at least part of general natural selection. Because we help ourselves through artificial means. Because of this, there are a lot of genes in our collective genomes that "nature" would have squeezed out. This process is going to inevitably lead to us being quite weak biologically and extremely dependend on our own technology in order to stay alive. So in a sense, we are taking the "natural" out of "natural selection".


But... it is just as correct to say that this development of technology is just as much part of our evolutionary path as the spider web is for the spider.

It's just that because of the nature of this technology, we are kind of messing with forces that will become a problem for future generations to come.

After all, a spider web doesn't keep "bad genes" in the mix. Medicine does.

What about other species?

What about them?

Evolution is an intrinsic part of life. It's just how it is.
Creatures reproduce with variation, try to survive, breed and if succesfull, they pass on their mutated genes. That's just how it works. There's not "stopping" it.

It will continue for as long as there are creatures that reproduce with variation and are in competition for survival and limited resources. It's literally inevitable. As inevitable as moving from one spot to another when you are walking.

It seems like evolution has all the answers.

It has many.

 

[Kylie]

Many 'adults' are unable to answer 'childish' questions, not because they are childish but because they have no answers.

And many "adults", when they provide answers to questions, are providing answers that they made up, or that others made up and presented as true.

In other words, answers are completely worthless unless we can test them and make sure they are true. It is far better to say "I don't know" and be honest than it is to make up an answer because you think not knowing is bad.

Not knowing something is the beginning of wisdom, because it drives you to find out.

 

[Kylie]

The topic is irreducible complexity, not evolution.

Completely irrelevant. The website I presented does show how a series of small changes can lead from a piece of wire to a fully modern mousetrap - exactly what Behe claimed was impossible when he said that a mousetrap was irreducibly complex!

 

[Kylie]

An argument nonetheless.

Very well, if argument from incredulity is now a valid argument...

I find it impossible to comprehend of an irreducibly complex thing, therefore there is nothing irreducibly complex.

Case closed, I have presented an argument which cannot be denied.

 

[AV1611VET]

What is so hard to comprehend about the idea that a perfectly healthy creature can fall victim to an accident?

I was under the impression that whole populations evolve, not individuals.

 

[MasonP]

I was under the impression that whole populations evolve, not individuals.

That's true but don't forget, populations are made up of individuals.

Your creationism stops you seeing the big picture by restricting your view, life has been around for billions of years but you restrict yourself to thinking in hundred of years, you do that deliberately to maintain your belief, you know that if you opened your eyes your religion would crumble, would that be such a bad thing?
If religions were true they would not need protecting, they would stand on their own.

 

[AV1611VET]

That's true but don't forget, populations are made up of individuals.

Don't YOU forget that we are talking about survival of the fittest, where individuals expiring every now and then for whatever reason doesn't apply.

 

[MasonP]

Don't YOU forget that we are talking about survival of the fittest, where individuals expiring every now and then for whatever reason doesn't apply.

If they pass on their genes before they expire they will have fulfilled their function.

What do you think mans role is on earth? to worship their imaginary Gods or to pass on their genes to the next generation? if they don't pass on their genes their Gods will die with them.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I was under the impression that whole populations evolve, not individuals.

Populations evolve, but mutations occur in individuals.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Don't YOU forget that we are talking about survival of the fittest, where individuals expiring every now and then for whatever reason doesn't apply.

And it's rather easy to imagine how the fittest at times do not survive.

Suppose I'm a wolf and a member of a pack.
I am the strongest, fastest wolf around. My eyesight is nothing short of 11/10 which makes me the best hunter around. Next to that, my fur is a perfect composition for hiding in bushes. And on top of it all, ALL the ladies love me and want to have my babies.

So one day, I set out to catch a prey and am sneaking up on it, ready to jump for the perfect kill.

Then, suddenly and completely out of the blue, one of following things happens:
- the volcano I'm on erupts
- lightning strikes me
- an insect with a new strain of a deadly virus stings me
- my prey was infected by a strain of a new deadly virus
- a 2-ton rock falls down from the cliff I'm standing next to, right on the head
- a hunter sitting 2 miles further in a tree cabin snipes me right in the face
- .....

By any and all criteria imaginable, I was by far the "fittest" of my group. By any and all reasonable expectations, I would have had the most off spring of the entire pack, being so popular with all the ladies.

Yet, any of the above random events instantly killed me, before I got to that part.

Boom. Game over. My awesome genes then disappear with me.

I can't make it any simpler then this.
My guess however, is that you'll just come up with some other rather senseless one-liner, pretending that that discarded everything I just said.

 

[AV1611VET]

My guess however, is that you'll just come up with some other rather senseless one-liner, pretending that that discarded everything I just said.

An insect with a new strain of a deadly virus stings him, and that kills him instantly?

Hmmm...

 

[MasonP]

An insect with a new strain of a deadly virus stings him, and that kills him instantly?

Hmmm...

Do you try to be childish or does it come naturally?

 

[MasonP]

My guess however, is that you'll just come up with some other rather senseless one-liner, pretending that that discarded everything I just said.

He will because he doesn't know any other way, it's called being indoctrinated.