Lordship Salvation

[morse86]

If being in dwelled by the Holy Ghost, where God resides in our hearts, isn't a relationship by your definition, then I can't help you sir.

Please define what you call a relationship. Thanks

Your heart is also where your treasure is...if you layup treasures on earth, that's where your heart is. So are all rich people rejecting Christ?!?!?!? There are a lot of rich people that believe in Christ.

Matthew 6:21:
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Yes, the Holy Spirit does indwell us. That has nothing to do with a relationship in terms of salvation.

Ephesians 4:29-30:
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


The whole point is, there is no relationship in terms of salvation. You can believe the gospel and be done with it. It's instant (a good christian ought to follow God's commandments...but it has nothing to do with salvation).

 

[AngelOf Laodicea]

If being in dwelled by the Holy Ghost, where God resides in our hearts, isn't a relationship by your definition, then I can't help you sir.

Please define what you call a relationship. Thanks

He defines "relationship" as blind faith in an intellectual set of beliefs that require no level of commitment or personal repentance.

His is a very shallow relationship

 

[ToBeLoved]

Unfortunately, 100% of Protestantism rejects this kind of faith in favor of the alter call intellectual based salvation that neither transforms nor forgives

Protestantism in no way resists making Jesus Christ, Lord of our lives. But what we do know, is that salvation is by faith.

Scripture:
Acts 15:9 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.


Acts 26:18 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.


Romans 1:17 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


Romans 3:22 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


Romans 3:28 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


Romans 3:30 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.


Romans 5:1 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


Romans 5:2 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


Romans 9:32 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


Romans 11:20 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:


2 Corinthians 1:24 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.


2 Corinthians 5:7 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
(For we walk by faith, not by sight


Galatians 3:11 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.


Galatians 3:22 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


Galatians 3:24 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


Galatians 3:26 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


Galatians 5:5 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.


Ephesians 3:17 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,


Philippians 3:9 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


Hebrews 10:38 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.


Hebrews 11:4 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.


Hebrews 11:5 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


Hebrews 11:7 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


Hebrews 11:8 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.


Hebrews 11:9 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:


Hebrews 11:17 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,


Hebrews 11:20 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.


Hebrews 11:21 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.


Hebrews 11:22 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.


Hebrews 11:23 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
Hebrews 11:24 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;


Hebrews 11:27 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.


Hebrews 11:29 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.


Hebrews 11:30 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.


Hebrews 11:31 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

 

[DingDing]

Unfortunately, 100% of Protestantism rejects this kind of faith in favor of the alter call intellectual based salvation that neither transforms nor forgives

No, there is a good, though perhaps small, percentage that does not feel this way.

 

[ToBeLoved]

"Salvation is based upon grace through faith and faith is made real by obedience."

God does not need faith to be made real. God is Omniscient. God knows the past, present and future all at the same time. There is nothing that God does not know.

“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

“Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).

“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).

“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).

“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).

“Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?” (Job 21:22).

“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).

“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever” (1 Chronicles 28:9).

“Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?” (Job 37:16).

“From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do” (Psalm 33:13-15).
“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” (Romans 11:33).

“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).

“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

“Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Matthew 10:29-30).

 

[AngelOf Laodicea]

This is where the baloney starts. To believe in Jesus means more than to believe in what He did: it means to believe in what He said (and not just select portions of it).

To believe in His words and to not put them into practice is to build a house on sand (Matthew)

 

[DingDing]

And tp

believe in His words and to not put them into practice is to build a house on sand (Matthew)

And I would say this means that the one does not really believe.

 

[AngelOf Laodicea]

God does not need faith to be made real. God is Omniscient. God knows the past, present and future all at the same time. There is nothing that God does not know.

“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).

“Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).

“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).

“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).

“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).

“Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?” (Job 21:22).

“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).

“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever” (1 Chronicles 28:9).

“Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?” (Job 37:16).

“From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do” (Psalm 33:13-15).
“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” (Romans 11:33).

“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).

“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).

“Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Matthew 10:29-30).

This thread isn't about faith making God real.
It is about works making faith real.
Is there something i missed in your post?

 

[AngelOf Laodicea]

And I would say this means that the one does not really believe.

"Believe" in Greek (the new testament language) means to "put trust in, entrust, commit, dedicate"

 

[Berean777]

The whole point is, there is no relationship in terms of salvation. You can believe the gospel and be done with it. It's instant (a good christian ought to follow God's commandments...but it has nothing to do with salvation).

You haven't defined what you consider to be a relationship.

Jesus Christ isn't interested in people saying yes I elect to believe in you. Jesus Christ is solely interested in being every part of our lives and as the saying goes....

I stand at the door of your hearts and knock, if any man/women opens their heart to me, I will come in and SUP with them.

In Jewish culture Supping in the days of Jesus was the closest thing that a family unite did every time they had a meal and broke bread.

Jesus in context to the giving of the Holy Ghost on Pentecost would say in John 14, that as I am in the Father and the Father in me, so too you will be in me and I in you.

In another verse John writes he must increase and I must reduce and in this regard we are becoming more and more selfless as we grown in the fullness of Christ Jesus and be moudled into his personage.

Jesus talks about if we love anything more than him, we are not worthy of him, so just electing to believe in Jesus is not enough and it would require a real and tangible relationship that would require obedience to our spiritual husband Jesus Christ.

Jesus would say in those days many will say did we not know you, aaahhaaa you see they knew him but Jesus calls them lairs and says I never knew you aaahhhaaaaa... you see that Jesus rejects them because they are not in close relationship with him, that is he declares them not his sheep.

 

[Berean777]

He defines "relationship" as blind faith in an intellectual set of beliefs that require no level of commitment or personal repentance.

His is a very shallow relationship

Lord lord lord statement comes to mind when people refuse to be joined heart to heart to Jesus Christ and think that they can wing it on a whim by just electing him superficially.

 

[morse86]

To believe in His words and to not put them into practice is to build a house on sand (Matthew)

What a foolish thing to say.

Jesus came not to condemn the world, but to save it.

John 3:17:
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Everyone is already condemned by the law! Jesus came to fulfill the law so through him, there is salvation. Jesus is the armor of God. Jesus shed his blood to bring you from being judged by God by the law.

Galatians 4:7:
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Those that count the law as their righteousness will be judged by God according to the law (all are sinners and condemned by the law). Those that have Christ Jesus as their righteousness, will not. He did the work for us, it is impossible for us to do the work 100%.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Then you agree that faith without works is dead.

Faith acted upon is the heart and soul of lordship salvation

No. As I've said before God is Omniscient.

God wants us to do His will. As Jesus said in the Lord's prayer "Thy will be done" that is how the Lord Jesus told us to pray. The Lord's will is done through His Children who are His Servants willing to do His will.

 

[ToBeLoved]

This thread isn't about faith making God real.
It is about works making faith real.
Is there something i missed in your post?

My post is about we do not need to make faith real through works. Please read it again.

 

[ToBeLoved]

To believe in His words and to not put them into practice is to build a house on sand (Matthew)

Scripture reference?

 

[Soyeong]

Obedience is........

Loyalty to the one who invited you into sonship with him, as heirs to the Kingdom of God with him.

So real obedience is to follow the Lord where ever he goes and it would be in harmony to carrying your cross and following him. Obedience in this respect is doing the Father's will, because the Father is pleased with the Son, hence all that follow and emulate the Son, are pleasing to God.

So unlike the Old Testament form of worship, obedience is no longer a practice of the flesh, rather it is solely based on a spiritual relationship with the Son. As Jesus said as I am in the Father and the Father is in me, I am in you and you in me. This is the oneness spiritual marriage, that is to become one spirit. As a husband and wife is twained to be one flesh, we are twained to be with Jesus Christ and become one spirit.

So much of the Jewish practice that were centred around a temple service no longer form a path to obedience, rather the living temple who is Jesus Christ lives in us and hence we become the temple of God. The kingdom of God is within you, hence the observances are through an intrinsic relationship between you and the Lord and how he apportions his grace will determine how close you are to his heart.

We are all trying to reach out for the Lord's heart and to gain his favour and by so doing he becomes our God of worship and much adoration. For us to do so, which the Father approves of, Jesus Christ must therefore be the one true God who is worshipped.

Galatians 5:20-23 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do[e] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

God's law is spiritual (Romans 7:14) and the works of the flesh are not practicing obedience to the law, but rather they are in disobedience to it, while the fruits of the Spirit are all in accordance with what the OT teaches. Abraham saw Messiah's day and was glad (John 8:56) and a relationship with Messiah is the goal of the law (Romans 10:4).

 

[ToBeLoved]

Unfortunately, 100% of Protestantism rejects this kind of faith in favor of the alter call intellectual based salvation that neither transforms nor forgives

It is not possible to not be transformed when we are saved. We are made a new creation by Christ. If you are saying that we are not made a new creation by Christ or that Christ making us a new creation is not affective, you need to pray about that. The other thing Christ does is write His Word on our hearts as well as give us the Holy Spirit which is both the seal of the New Covenant as well the One who shows us Truth. The Holy Spirit is our Comforter. The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. The Holy Spirit prays for us when we do not know what to pray for ourselves.

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!

Jeremiah 31:32-33
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33[URL='http://biblehub.com/hebrew/384.htm'] "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.[/URL]

Hebrews 10:16-17
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First He says: 16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after those days, says the Lord. I will put My Laws in their hearts and inscribe them on their minds.” 17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
21 Now it is God who establishes both us and you in Christ. He anointed us, 22 placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come.

Romans 8:26-27
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. 27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

 

[Soyeong]

and as the case in catholicism is why I liked your post... Because catholicism doesn't save just as Lordship salvation doesn't-- the only thing that does is belief in and faith in and accepting Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Saviour and in His finished work on the Cross his GRACE saves not our works-- lest any man should boast.

This is a description of what our salvation looks like:

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

So our salvation involves being saved by faith from the penalty of our sins or lawlessness by Messiah giving himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, but our salvation also includes being saved by faith from continuing to sin by God's grace training to do what He has revealed to be godly, upright, and good and training us to renounce doing what He has revealed to be ungodly, sinful, and lawless. When God has given instructions for how to live rightly and says that His commands are for our own good (Deuteronomy 10:13), and when you believe God and trust that what He said is true, then demonstrating that to be the case through your obedience to His commands is what it means to live by faith, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4). Living by faith does not refer to some other manner of living that is not in obedience to God's commands. Living in obedience to God's commands is also what it means to come under God's authority and to declare Messiah to be Lord (Deuteronomy 30:11-14, Romans 10:5-10). We are saved by grace through faith, not by works lest any man should boast, but rather we are made new creations in Messiah for the purpose of following God's commands for how to do good works by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10), so God's grace is what trains us to do good works by faith. We have received grace to bring about the obedience of faith (Romans 1:5).

 

[daughterofthemosthigh7]

Soyeong: I hear what you are saying-- I don't doubt that I am truly saved for one moment and have had true conversion and am new creation in Him and am Holy Spirit filled and yes indeed not by works but on other hand faith without works is dead but that's not what salvation is based on which becomes confusing but I do get it-- anyway, part I'm not getting is that you said we are "trained" not to sin?! I don't know about you but that's my nature, I'm fallen (but I also at same time try to avoid walking in flesh too) I fall short-- but as new creation and with help of Holy Spirit convicting me-- helping me and also wanting to please God in obedience to Him-- oh i don't know what I'm saying at this point but I do get it-- I understand and He knows it too! Things, well sins I used to struggle with in beginning no longer issue-- devil can't even bother me with them anymore-- but yeah of course I still stumble, every day, multiple times in fact-- but thank you Jesus for making a way-- and that I'm covered...

 

[ToBeLoved]

Soyeong: I hear what you are saying-- I don't doubt that I am truly saved for one moment and have had true conversion and am new creation in Him and am Holy Spirit filled and yes indeed not by works but on other hand faith without works is dead but that's not what salvation is based on which becomes confusing but I do get it-- anyway, part I'm not getting is that you said we are "trained" not to sin?! I don't know about you but that's my nature, I'm fallen (but I also at same time try to avoid walking in flesh too) I fall short-- but as new creation and with help of Holy Spirit convicting me-- helping me and also wanting to please God in obedience to Him-- oh i don't know what I'm saying at this point but I do get it-- I understand and He knows it too! Things, well sins I used to struggle with in beginning no longer issue-- devil can't even bother me with them anymore-- but yeah of course I still stumble, every day, multiple times in fact-- but thank you Jesus for making a way-- and that I'm covered...

That's what happens as He works in your heart. Some sins that were an issue are a small issue now. We are always growing and becoming more like Christ. The Holy Spirit does this and it is sanctification.

You have a good basic knowledge of God. He teaches and we learn.