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Saturday and Sunday

BobRyan

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OMGosh. Can you only bring up rehashed stuff

hint -- http://www.christianforums.com/threads/saturday-and-sunday.7894071/page-5#post-70170108

still waiting for the answer to this

Key question:

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the TEN commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??

The RCC claims TEN Commandments - not nine.

So that CHANGE to the one of the TEN - is... a change to that commandment.
 
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Meowzltov

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Meowzltov

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hint: We are not talking about "becoming Jews".

Even your own Pope John Paul II admits to this glaringly obvious Bible detail the Ten Commandments were never "for just Jews" -- and your own denomination knows it.

Consider joining him instead of opposing him so often.
You are right. We are actually talking about Gentile believers NOT "becoming Jews" per Acts 15, and therefore not having to keep the Mosaic covenant (including the Saturday Shabbat). The Catholic Church, including JP2, embraces this.

As far as the Jews themselves, JP2 believes that they are still bound by their covenant. See his quote in my tag.
 
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BobRyan

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OMGosh. Can you only bring up rehashed stuff

hint -- http://www.christianforums.com/threads/saturday-and-sunday.7894071/page-5#post-70170108

still waiting for the answer to this

Key question:

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the TEN commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??

The RCC claims TEN Commandments - not nine.

So that CHANGE to the one of the TEN - is... a change to that commandment.


This is a duplicate post on two different threads.

hint -- that post is on this thread.

Enjoy!

=============================

still waiting for the answer to this

Key question:

In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the TEN commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??

The RCC claims TEN Commandments - not nine.

So that CHANGE to the one of the TEN - is... a change to that commandment.

And I think we all agree as in your title "Saturday and Sunda" -- is in fact the change "from Saturday - to Sunday" for the Sabbath Commandment
 
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BobRyan

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I was only agreeing and siding with you.

bugkiller

Which of these Catholic statements were you agreeing and siding with?

================================

Dies Domini

From the Sabbath to Sunday

18. Because the Third (the Sabbath) Commandment depends upon the remembrance of God's saving works and because Christians saw the definitive time inaugurated by Christ as a new beginning, they made the first day after the Sabbath a festive day, for that was the day on which the Lord rose from the dead. The Paschal Mystery of Christ is the full revelation of the mystery of the world's origin, the climax of the history of salvation and the anticipation of the eschatological fulfilment of the world. What God accomplished in Creation and wrought for his People in the Exodus has found its fullest expression in Christ's Death and Resurrection, though its definitive fulfilment will not come until the Parousia, when Christ returns in glory. In him, the "spiritual" meaning of the Sabbath is fully realized, as Saint Gregory the Great declares: "For us, the true Sabbath is the person of our Redeemer, our Lord Jesus Christ".(14) This is why the joy with which God, on humanity's first Sabbath, contemplates all that was created from nothing, is now expressed in the joy with which Christ, on Easter Sunday, appeared to his disciples, bringing the gift of peace and the gift of the Spirit (cf. Jn 20:19-23). It was in the Paschal Mystery that humanity, and with it the whole creation, "groaning in birth-pangs until now" (Rom 8:22), came to know its new "exodus" into the freedom of God's children who can cry out with Christ, "Abba, Father!" (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

=============================================

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"
we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================

Question for non-Catholics.

Should non-Catholics follow the Catholic lead on this point??...

or the Bible?

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BABerean2

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Should non-Catholics follow the Catholic lead on this point??...

or the Bible?

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.





Christ is the sacrifice.
He is the priest.
He is the showbread.
He is the tabernacle.
He is the feasts.
He is the Sabbath. Colossians 2:16-17


.
 
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BobRyan

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Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
.

In the quote -- we find this ================================

Dies Domini

From the Sabbath to Sunday

18. Because the Third (the Sabbath) Commandment depends upon the remembrance of God's saving works and because Christians saw the definitive time inaugurated by Christ as a new beginning, they made the first day after the Sabbath a festive day, for that was the day on which the Lord rose from the dead. The Paschal Mystery of Christ is the full revelation of the mystery of the world's origin, the climax of the history of salvation and the anticipation of the eschatological fulfilment of the world. What God accomplished in Creation and wrought for his People in the Exodus has found its fullest expression in Christ's Death and Resurrection, though its definitive fulfilment will not come until the Parousia, when Christ returns in glory. In him, the "spiritual" meaning of the Sabbath is fully realized, as Saint Gregory the Great declares: "For us, the true Sabbath is the person of our Redeemer, our Lord Jesus Christ".(14) This is why the joy with which God, on humanity's first Sabbath, contemplates all that was created from nothing, is now expressed in the joy with which Christ, on Easter Sunday, appeared to his disciples, bringing the gift of peace and the gift of the Spirit (cf. Jn 20:19-23). It was in the Paschal Mystery that humanity, and with it the whole creation, "groaning in birth-pangs until now" (Rom 8:22), came to know its new "exodus" into the freedom of God's children who can cry out with Christ, "Abba, Father!" (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

=============================================

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================

So is that you "agreeing" in your post??

Or is the "bond woman" in your example - the idea that it is still a sin to take God's name in vain -- and that we should ignore such Bible teaching?
 
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BABerean2

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From the Sabbath to Sunday

I have a copy of the book "From Sabbath to Sunday" written by Samuel Bacchiocchi, which was published by the Pontifical Gregorian University Press of Rome, which is a Jesuit institution. He is a graduate of that same Jesuit institution.

He later taught at the SDA college.

Some of those within SDA suspected that he was really a Jesuit.

You might want to try a better source of information...

.
 
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BobRyan

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Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
.

In the quote -- we find this ================================

Dies Domini

From the Sabbath to Sunday

18. Because the Third (the Sabbath) Commandment depends upon the remembrance of God's saving works and because Christians saw the definitive time inaugurated by Christ as a new beginning, they made the first day after the Sabbath a festive day, for that was the day on which the Lord rose from the dead. The Paschal Mystery of Christ is the full revelation of the mystery of the world's origin, the climax of the history of salvation and the anticipation of the eschatological fulfilment of the world. What God accomplished in Creation and wrought for his People in the Exodus has found its fullest expression in Christ's Death and Resurrection, though its definitive fulfilment will not come until the Parousia, when Christ returns in glory. In him, the "spiritual" meaning of the Sabbath is fully realized, as Saint Gregory the Great declares: "For us, the true Sabbath is the person of our Redeemer, our Lord Jesus Christ".(14) This is why the joy with which God, on humanity's first Sabbath, contemplates all that was created from nothing, is now expressed in the joy with which Christ, on Easter Sunday, appeared to his disciples, bringing the gift of peace and the gift of the Spirit (cf. Jn 20:19-23). It was in the Paschal Mystery that humanity, and with it the whole creation, "groaning in birth-pangs until now" (Rom 8:22), came to know its new "exodus" into the freedom of God's children who can cry out with Christ, "Abba, Father!" (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

=============================================

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

========================================

So is that you "agreeing" in your post??

Or is the "bond woman" in your example - the idea that it is still a sin to take God's name in vain -- and that we should ignore such Bible teaching?

I have a copy of the book "From Sabbath to Sunday" written by Samuel Bacchiocchi,

Me too.

Do you think the "Faith Explained" was secretly written by Bacchiocchi?? or are you simply posting random thoughts?
 
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rstrats

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Open Heart,
re: "The apostles met on Sunday to break bread (Acts 20)."


The breaking of bread mentioned (even if it were referring to the Lord's Supper) had nothing to do with placing a special emphasis on the first (day) because Acts 2:46 says that they broke bread every day.

Also the verse could simply be saying that the disciples got together to eat a meal on this particular first day of the week . The phrase, "to break bread", does not have to refer to a religious service - unless it is specifically stated - but to dividing loaves of bread for a meal. "It means to partake of food and is used of eating as in a meal...... The readers [of the original New Testament letters and manuscripts] could have had no other idea or meaning in their minds" (E.W.Bullinger, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, pp. 839,840.)

BTW, as far as scripture is concerned, there are only two times mentioned with regard to anybody getting together on the first (day) of the week - John 20:19 and Acts 20:7. There is never any mention of them ever again being together on the first.
 
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Meowzltov

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Which of these Catholic statements were you agreeing and siding with?
You play dirty. He was agreeing with me. You should have quoted my post and asked him what part of that he agreed with.
 
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BABerean2

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There is never any mention of them ever again being together on the first.

Mat_28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Mar_16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

Mar_16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Luk_24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

Joh_20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Joh_20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Act_20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

1Co_16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.


The early Church did assemble at times on the first day of the week.
It became known as "the Lord's Day", because it was the day Christ was found to be risen from the dead.


Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,


However, based on Colossians 2:16-17 they did not call it a Sabbath.

.
 
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rstrats

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BABerean2,

re: "The early Church did assemble at times on the first day of the week."

But only 2 times according to scripture.



re: "It became known as "the Lord's Day'..."

But not because of scripture calling it that.



re: "Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day..."

But it doesn't say that it was the first day of the week.
 
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BABerean2

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BABerean2,

re: "The early Church did assemble at times on the first day of the week."

But only 2 times according to scripture.



re: "It became known as "the Lord's Day'..."

But not because of scripture calling it that.



re: "Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day..."

But it doesn't say that it was the first day of the week.

Based on what we find in the text about His resurrection from the dead on the first day of the week and the references to the early Church meeting on the first day of the week, and Colossians 2:16-17, you tell me when "the Lord's day" would be.

 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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Open Heart said:
Gentiles were released from observing laws peculiar to Jews
"laws peculiar to Jews" is that you 'quoting you' again?

At some point the Bible should be of interest to you.
As should the NT to Jews and Muslims, including the Jewish Hebrew book of Revelation, IMHO......

Luke 2:32
A light into un-covering/un-veiling/apo-kaluyin <602> of Nations and glory of Thy people Israel.

2 Corin 3:14
But was calloused the minds of them.
For until the today day, the same covering/kalumma <2571> upon the reading of the Old Covenant is remaining, no being up-covered/ana-kaluptomenon <343> (5746).
That in Christ it is being-taken-away.


Revelation 1:1
Un-veiling/un-covering/apo-kaluyiV <602> of Jesus Christ, which Yahweh gives to him, to show to the bond-servants of him, which is binding to be becoming in swiftness............

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/what-jews-can-learn-from-the-new-testament/

It is daunting to think of the number of books a Jew “must” read in order to achieve Jewish literacy. With trepidation I suggest yet another volume to add to that list: the New Testament (NT).

Anyone who lives in a country with a Christian majority (such as the United States or Canada) should acquire basic knowledge of the foundational literature of the dominant faith. Students of the arts need to know stories like the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32), the raising of Lazarus (John 11:1-44), and the “passion” of Jesus (i.e. his trial, suffering, and death) or they will be at a disadvantage when studying many works of literature, art, and music. But there are also reasons why Jews, specifically, would gain from study of the New Testament. It is a rich source for a better understanding of Jewish history, Jewish thought, Jewish law, and the history of anti-Semitism............................


.
 
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rstrats

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BABerean2,
re: "Based on what we find in the text about His resurrection from the dead on the first day of the week..."

Only one verse -Mark 16:9 (as it is translated in the KJV and similar versions) places the resurrection on the first of the week, and even that verse is questioned by a number of scholars with regard to it's authenticity.



re: "...and the references to the early Church meeting on the first day of the week..."

Again, scripture mentions only 2 times where anyone got together on the first day of the week - John 20:19 and Acts 20:7.



re: "...and Colossians 2:16-17..."

Those verses say nothing about the first day of the week.



re: "... you tell me when 'the Lord's day' would be."

I think the comments from the book, "From Sabbath to Sunday", best describe what the "Lord's day" is referring to: "...the words are the equivalent of 'the day of the Lord' of the old Testament, understood as the eschatological day of Christ's parousia and judgment. In this case the Seer finds himself transported by the Spirit into the circumstances of that glorious day and from that vantage point he is shown by prophetic symbols the events preceding and following Christ's coming."




Another possibility is in Isaiah 58:13-14-- ""If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words..."

At any rate, nowhere in scripture is the 1st day of the week ever referred to as "the Lord's day".












 
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