Are women inferior to men?

[JackRT]

If we have a New Testament where we have to throw out Paul as being against Christ, we may as well throw out Luke as well, a faithful companion of Paul

New Testament's GETTING PRETTY SLIM!!

We've still got John, who wrote 1 gospel, 1 apocalypse, and 3 epistles...
Jesus entrusted His own mother to John's care on the Cross

I suspect multiple Johns none of whom were the apostle John.

 

[2 know him]

If we have a New Testament where we have to throw out Paul as being against Christ, we may as well throw out Luke as well, a faithful companion of Paul

New Testament's GETTING PRETTY SLIM!!

We've still got John, who wrote 1 gospel, 1 apocalypse, and 3 epistles...
Jesus entrusted His own mother to John's care on the Cross

Luke only sought to create a documented account of the historical events of his day, and while Luke had a skewed bias in favor of Paul, based upon his relationship with Paul, he did not try and add to the information beyond that which was observed or verbally conveyed to him.

With Paul we can scrutinize his words against the teachings of Christ and the evidence clearly shows Paul's words as contradicting the words of Christ.

2nd Timothy chapter 1 verse 15 tells us that all of Asia forsook Paul. John who is known to be an apostle to the Jews writes to the gentile churches of Asia and 2 the very first church they're commanded in the very first thing said to them as they tried those that claim they were Apostles and found them to be Liars. Seeing all of Asia forsook Paul it is clear that it is a reference to him or it is one very big coincidence. A coincidence that would be Beyond a reasonable person's ability to accept as a coincidence.

 

[JackRT]

Modern analytical bible scholars have intensively studied the text of those epistles that are generally attributed to Paul. By closely examining vocabulary, grammar and thought themes they are in agreement that the following epistles are genuinely from Paul. They are 1 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, Philemon and Romans. Two more letters, Colossians and 2 Thessalonians are in dispute. Hebrews does not reflect Paul’s style and content whatsoever. Ephesians does not reflect the style of Paul but is very much Pauline in content and is thought to have been written by a close follower of Paul’s. The Pastoral letters (Titus, 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy) are attributed to Paul, but someone writing in Paul’s name wrote them around AD120, some 60 years after Paul’s death. Each letter uses vocabulary Paul is not known to have used; each has a different concept than Paul had of key matters such as faith; and each refers to Paul’s close friends Timothy and Titus in formal rather than friendly terms. They assume that Christian churches are governed by the kind of carefully organized authority structures that developed decades after Paul’s time. They are similar in style and in content and in the issues they raise. Scholars generally believe them to have been written by the same person.

 

[Brokenhill]

God has not commanded that all women will stay at home, care for it and the children no matter what.
Scripture does not teach that a woman cannot have a career, nor does it teach that a man must.

So if God has given you the gift, and desire, to be a homemaker, it's best for your situation and will lead to fulfilment, then go for it. How will it benefit you to struggle on in a job you hate while longing to be at home? If you think you can force yourself to carry on and deal with the frustration and your heart not being in what you do; go ahead. But I'm sure it would be best for you, your boss (if your heart isn't in your work) and your family if you were able to do what God has given you a passion for doing.



Perhaps she is.



How do you know it wasn't God who gave those desires in the first place?
Scripture says that if we delight ourselves in the Lord he will give us the desires of our hearts, Psalm 37:4. It's not wrong to have desires - and if we belong to the Lord and have given our lives to him, then our desires are his as well. This is what the Psalmist means; be in the Lord, delight yourself in him, delight to know and serve him, then he will give you the desires that are in your heart. So even if you believe that your desires are just your own, and own feelings, if you belong to the Lord and give your desires to him, you may find that he allows you to fulfil them.



But that doesn't mean that he commanded, and willed, for us to do them in the first place.



But if someone is in a role that God has not put them in and is not right for them, should they rejoice, or should they get out and find what his will is?



If you are in a role that is not right for you and contrary to your God given gifts, then it could well be that your dissatisfaction and unease is from God. He might be saying "get out and do what I created you to do; what you were made for".



Yet some men can't lead and some women can't, and will never have, children. Some women choose not to have children, even choose to remain single. Some women have a God given career and children.



God's word does not command all women to stay at home, keep house and look after the children.

Thank you for the time you spent responding to me, but I do not intend to carry on this conversation as you blatantly ignored scripture in previous discussions. I don't think it will be fruitful to keep going around in circles.

 

[Brokenhill]

Luke only sought to create a documented account of the historical events of his day, and while Luke had a skewed bias in favor of Paul, based upon his relationship with Paul, he did not try and add to the information beyond that which was observed or verbally conveyed to him.

With Paul we can scrutinize his words against the teachings of Christ and the evidence clearly shows Paul's words as contradicting the words of Christ.

2nd Timothy chapter 1 verse 15 tells us that all of Asia forsook Paul. John who is known to be an apostle to the Jews writes to the gentile churches of Asia and 2 the very first church they're commanded in the very first thing said to them as they tried those that claim they were Apostles and found them to be Liars. Seeing all of Asia forsook Paul it is clear that it is a reference to him or it is one very big coincidence. A coincidence that would be Beyond a reasonable person's ability to accept as a coincidence.

2 Peter 3:15 says "and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote you".

Peter, an Apostle, regarded Paul's teachings as valid.
If 2 Tim. 1:15 is all you have for Paul being a heretic, that's a very weak argument.

Paul's teachings do not contradict Jesus' teachings.
I would personally admit that Paul may have acted once or twice not in complete submission to Jesus' teachings, but to say outright that all of his teachings are invalid and that the account of Jesus appearing to him and electing in to be an Apostle is is way out of line.

 

[Strong in Him]

Thank you for the time you spent responding to me, but I do not intend to carry on this conversation as you blatantly ignored scripture in previous discussions. I don't think it will be fruitful to keep going around in circles.

I may have chosen to answer your post in general rather than address a specific Scripture; that does not mean I wilfully ignored it.
I repeat my statement that Scripture does not command that all women be homemakers, and it's certainly true that not all women have children to care for. So if a woman goes to work and the man takes the role of homemaker, they are not disobeying the word of God.

At the end of the day though, this is your life. If you feel you have to go out to work, even though you'd rather not; that's up to you.

 

[2 know him]

2 Peter 3:15 says "and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote you".

Peter, an Apostle, regarded Paul's teachings as valid.
If 2 Tim. 1:15 is all you have for Paul being a heretic, that's a very weak argument.

Paul's teachings do not contradict Jesus' teachings.
I would personally admit that Paul may have acted once or twice not in complete submission to Jesus' teachings, but to say outright that all of his teachings are invalid and that the account of Jesus appearing to him and electing in to be an Apostle is is way out of line.

Besides Luke who is a gentle companion of Paul's nobody besides Paul himself calls Paul an apostle.

As for Peter I highly doubt that Peter wrote The Passage that you spoke of. In the book of Acts we are told that Peter and John were illiterate. It may be that John they're into right at some later time most likely somebody wrote the letters under the name of John they could have been dictated, John could have learned to write later, but for a couple of personal reasons of observation in the writings written under the pen name of Peter I'm most certain that Peter did not write the letters attributed to him.

We Do know for sure that Paul said that all of Asia forsook him and the John wrote to the churches of Asia in Revelations. On top of this we also have Paul's own writings which again as I have clearly pointed out contradict the teachings of Jesus. If we're going to talk about Paul and the Integrity of his writings deal with the challenge of answering the contradictions that I have plainly pointed out in my post regarding Romans 13.

 

[Strong in Him]

As for Peter I highly doubt that Peter wrote The Passage that you spoke of. In the book of Acts we are told that Peter and John were illiterate.

Acts 4:13 says "unschooled, ordinary" not illiterate.

A person who can read and write can still be unlearned or ignorant.

 

[2 know him]

No. You simply made some erroneous statements that are nothing other than misinterpretation to suit your agenda. There is nothing 'wrong' with my 'reasoning abilities'. I have never found one thing that Paul offered in contradiction to the teachings of Christ.

What you seem to fail to understand is that Christ's message and 'The Church' are two different things. Christ's ministry was utterly specific. He is the Son of God. You aren't nor am I. But we need a means of spreading the Word and maintaining the 'church'. That is completely different than Christ's ministry. Paul was 'not' Christ nor are you or I. If you truly believe that you can 'be Christ'. More power to ya. But I would suggest you set your sights a little lower. As Paul did. We are 'not' Christ. At best, we can 'hope' that Christ dwells within us.

It is perfectly clear you are simply LOOKING for a reason to ignore the words of Paul. Most that rebel against God are looking for an 'excuse'. And my 'rebuke' was 'well founded'. For you to try to influence others to 'ignore' the Bible as you have chosen to do is about as dangerous as trying to lead them to worship Satan 'outright', (you know, be a Satanist). For if one has no defense against the Devil, he owns them. The world as it stands presently belongs to Satan. It is impossible for a true follower of Christ to deny God's Word regardless of who offers it. Paul's words were offered to 'establish' The Church, (Body), of Christ. Christ did not 'do this' during His ministry. If you believe differently, then you tell 'us' exactly how 'the church' is to behave and function according to the words of Christ.

Your skepticism borders on something much more dangerous than you seem to perceive. Or maybe you 'do' and that is 'your agenda'. I cannot say.

Blessings,

MEC

Maybe you need to read first John chapter 2 which tells us that whoever professes to know Christ on a walk even as Jesus walked.

Again you fail to deal with the contradictions of Paul's teachings against what Jesus taught.

 

[2 know him]

Acts 4:13 says "unschooled, ordinary" not illiterate.

A person who can read and write can still be unlearned or ignorant.

Try looking at the Greek it literally means they were illiterate.
Word: agrammatoj

Pronounce: ag-ram-mat-os

Strongs Number: G62

Orig: from 1 (as negative particle) and 1121; unlettered,

 

[Strong in Him]

Try looking at the Greek it literally means they were illiterate.
Word: agrammatoj

Pronounce: ag-ram-mat-os

Strongs Number: G62

Orig: from 1 (as negative particle) and 1121; unlettered,

Well maybe they were at that time - doesn't mean they remained that way.

 

[Anto9us]

I have read much of what was posted about "Paul vs Pauline" authorship of different epistles... I accept some of it

Like maybe "the pastorals" and certainly not Hebrews are not really by Paul

I have also heard critics' theories that there were actually FOUR different letters to the Corinthians, of which we only have two

There is also merit to what was posted about even own's own writing changing over time and what I could call "state-conditioned writing" -- there are theories of state-conditioned learning

I think Silas may have helped Peter write one of his epistles

I have heard PRISCILLA suggested as author of Hebrews, if true that would give us a female biblical author

About the only thing I can say with certainty is that Hebrews was NOT written by L. Ron Hubbard

 

[Anto9us]

I would LIKE IT if Priscilla wrote Hebrews; as it is, Deborah of SONG OF DEBORAH is our only female author of a piece of Scripture that I know of...

Most modern scholars think Daniel didn't write Daniel, that there were at least two Isaiahs, etc...

Multiple "Johns" -- I have heard of that, too.

But I still have an old KJV that has the title in it "Epistle of Paul to the Hebrews"; and it also has "4004 BC" in the margin at Genesis 1:1 !!

 

[JackRT]

I have also heard critics' theories that there were actually FOUR different letters to the Corinthians, of which we only have two

I have not heard that about Corinthians but I have read that two of Paul’s epistles are thought to be composed of what were originally several smaller letters. In particular Philippians is composed of three and 2 Corinthians is composed of six. Chapter 16 of Romans seems to be a later addition but genuinely by Paul. The following is a chronology of early Christian writings:

John Dominic Crossan has provided a detailed classification of our sources for the historical Jesus according to the chronological stratification of the traditions. For a brief discussion of each source, including the reasons for its proposed dating, see John Dominic Crossan, The Historical Jesus (HarperCollins, 1991) Appendix 1, pp. 427-50. All dates shown are C.E. (Common Era).

First Stratum [30 to 60 C.E.]

1. First Letter of Paul to the Thessalonians (late 40s)

2. Letter of Paul to the Galatians (winter of 52/53)

3. First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians (winter of 53/54.)

4. Letter of Paul to the Romans (winter of 55/56)

5. Gospel of Thomas I (earliest layer of Thomas, composed in 50s)

6. Egerton Gospel (50s)

7. P. Vienna G. 2325 (50s)

8. P. Oxyrhynchus 1224 (50s)

9. Gospel of the Hebrews (Egypt, 50s)

10. Sayings Gospel Q (50s)

11. Miracles Collection (50s)

12. Apocalyptic Scenario (50s)

13. Cross Gospel (50s)


Second Stratum [60 to 80 C.E.]

14. Gospel of the Egyptians (60s)

15. Secret Gospel of Mark (early 70s)

16. Gospel of Mark (late 70s)

17. P. Oxyrhynchus 840 (?80s)

18. Gospel of Thomas II (later layers, 70s)

19. Dialogue Collection (70s)

20. Signs Gospel, or Book of Signs (70s)

21. Letter to the Colossians (70s)


Third Stratum [80 to 120 C.E.]

22. Gospel of Matthew (90)

23. Gospel of Luke (90s)

24. Revelation/Apocalypse of John (late 90s)

25. First Letter of Clement (late 90s)

26. Epistle of Barnabas (end first century)

27. Didache (other than 1:3b2:1, 16:35) (end first century)

28. Shepherd of Hermas (100)

29. Letter of James (100)

30. Gospel of John I (early second century)

31. Letter of Ignatius, To the Ephesians (110)

32. Letter of Ignatius, To the Magnesians (110)

33. Letter of Ignatius, To the Trallians (110)

34. Letter of Ignatius, To the Romans (110)

35. Letter of Ignatius, To the Philadelphians (110)

36. Letter of Ignatius, To the Smyrneans (110)

37. Letter of Ignatius, To Polycarp (110)

38. First Letter of Peter (112)

39. Letter of Polycarp, To the Philippians, 1314 (115)

40. First Letter of John (115)


Fourth Stratum [120 to 150 C.E.]

41. Gospel of John II (after 120)

42. Acts of the Apostles (after 120)

43. Apocryphon of James (before 150)

44. First Letter to Timothy (after 120)

45. Second Letter to Timothy (after 120)

46. Letter to Titus (after 120)

47. Second Letter of Peter (between 125 and 150)

48. Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians, 112 (140)

49. Second Letter of Clement (150)

50. Gospel of the Nazoreans (middle second century)

51. Gospel of the Ebionites (middle second century)

52. Didache, 1:3b2:1 (middle second century)

53. Gospel of Peter (middle second century)

 

[Anto9us]

Wow
I have seen Crossan on TV getting a LITTLE BIT into the dating stuff, never anything near that detailed. Thx.

Also heard that Ephesians might have been a "letter to Laodicea"...

Six pieces of 2 Corinthians-- gosh

 

[Achilles6129]

Priscilla could not have been the author of Hebrews because Hebrews 11:32 uses a masculine pronoun for "I" which means that the author was male.

 

[Anto9us]

Ouch.
Got me right in the HEEL, Achilles!!

 

[Achilles6129]

Ouch.
Got me right in the HEEL, Achilles!!

[emoji1]

 

[Johnnz]

You have 'taken it upon yourself' to 'make up' what you 'want' to believe according to 'this world'. Being a 'follower' of Christ is not about being a 'part of this world'.

I disagree with your standpoint. From the 'beginning', Eve was commanded to be obedient to her husband and her husband was commanded to provide for himself, his wife and their children. Never have we been offered that it's OK to reverse this order. If you believe differently, then show us the scripture that offers anything 'different'. Just because 'the world' has veered away from the teachings of the Bible doesn't mean that this is God's will. If what you offer had been God's will then I am quite sure we would have been given instructions altering what we were 'first offered'. You simply 'saying something' does not make it so. That is 'why' we have God's Word, so that we can compare what people like you 'say' and we can KNOW that you are mistaken or worse.

Yes, according to the world, women can 'do' whatever they wish in countries that provide such 'equality'. But that 'equality' doesn't exist in the Bible. We are given specific instructions of what is 'pleasing' to God and able to bring us closer. Being a 'part of this world' in our understanding is utterly contrary to God's Word.

Blessings,

MEC

From what I can see you have persisted in your views even though I have offered other exegetical considerations which you have never once even mentioned. One's views do remain rather fixed when all others are simply ignored.

John
NZ

 

[Johnnz]

Again you fail to deal with the contradictions of Paul's teachings against what Jesus taught

I had previously stated you appear to not understand both Jesus and Paul that well. Paul built on Jesus practices and teaching. Poor exegesis of Paul misses that point.

John
NZ