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Is there any evidence for evolution?

mark kennedy

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Paul of Eugene OR

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Maybe you have heard of the Chinese room. Well, that is no longer a thought experiment, because it has actually been done. A human was shut away in a room, where he was fed messages in a language he couldn't speak. By manipulating vocabulary, using the rules of grammar, he was able to send back seemingly intelligent responses. Did he have a clue what the messages he was sending back meant? Of course he didn't.

Marcus du Sautoy was the person's name.

Seemingly intelligent responses aren't necessarily turing test passing responses. But that is an interesting thing to have happened!
 
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RickG

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Define evolution.
To keep it simple, simple genetic changes and speciation of biological population. Keep in mind that populations evolve, not individuals.

Now, please answer my question. What scientific evidence specifically contradicts ToE?
 
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mark kennedy

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"Euclid was one of their students," is not a form of words which lends itself to that interpretation. You are trying to dig yourself out of one of the many holes you have dug for yourself.

Nonsense he was a student of the school of thought and the cultural differences do lend themselves to interpretation.

I wonder whether some kind person, who is fluent in Double Dutch, could translate that into English for me?[/quote]
Ok this is the part where he takes the stage in the Darwinian theater of the mind. A couple of knucklehead in the front row and the sound of rats seeking behind the tattered backdrop. His performance is short and the two knuclheads down front stare blankly as he leaves.



Did I call Newton a dulard? Don't think so. I just said that he would fail a first year undergraduate maths exam today. Which he would. That doesn't make him a dulard, any more than his being ignorant of electromagnetism does. You see, both mathematics and physics have moved on since his time.

You in as much as did saying he couldn't cut it in a modern program. The principles of motion and the application of the inverse squared is still with us. We don't move on from math and physics we build on the works of giants. I simply found the arrogance repulsive. Your smarter then Newton me Moses Jesus. Like Job said. Suely you are the one and wisdom will die with you.

Newton and Leibnitz could scarcely stand to hear one another's names mentioned. And that is just a fact.

They did corospond and its not my problem if you get wrapped around the axle over this.




Did I say anything about string theory? Don't think so.

Anymore then I said relativity or quantum mechanics. The duplicity of your posts is truly staggering.

No, it didn't stand science on its head. It got science under way.
No it diverted it from the deductive logic of Aristotelian scholastism to the inductive approach that is so synonymous with science today.
 
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mark kennedy

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To keep it simple, simple genetic changes and speciation of biological population. Keep in mind that populations evolve, not individuals.

Now, please answer my question. What scientific evidence specifically contradicts ToE?
Why would I argue against that definition. Its perfectly comparable with creation. With o e reservation see my signature.
 
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lesliedellow

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Ok this is the part where he takes the stage in the Darwinian theater of the mind. A couple of knucklehead in the front row and the sound of rats seeking behind the tattered backdrop. His performance is short and the two knuclheads down front stare blankly as he leaves.

More incoherent babble.


You in as much as did saying he couldn't cut it in a modern program.

His standard of mathematical rigour, or lack thereof, would have got him a big time fail in any university maths course today. If he was around today, and if he was a mathematics undergraduate, his lecturers would doubtless be acquainting him with modern standards of mathematical rigour. In that respect, Leibnitz would have a head start on him.


I simply found the arrogance repulsive. Your smarter then Newton me Moses Jesus. Like Job said. Suely you are the one and wisdom will die with you.

Anybody acquainted with the history of mathematics would tell you the same thing. Newton was criticised in his own day for his lack of mathematical rigour:

"Certainly he who can digest a second or third fluxion need not, methinks, be squeamish about any point in divinity." (George Berkeley)

And he was right.


They did corospond and its not my problem if you get wrapped around the axle over this.

They did not "corospond," and neither did they correspond. The closest they got to a correspondence was an exchange between Leibnitz and Samuel Clarke, an acquaintance of Newton's, after the former had criticised Newtonian mechanics on theological grounds.


Anymore then I said relativity or quantum mechanics. The duplicity of your posts is truly staggering.

In your inimitable style, you told me that I knew nothing about science, so I asked you if neither Relativity nor Quantum Theory counted as science.


No it diverted it from the deductive logic of Aristotelian scholastism to the inductive approach that is so synonymous with science today.

And it is just as well it did. Otherwise we would still be thinking that the four elements were earth, wind, water and fire.
 
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mark kennedy

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Again, THE HOAX, was revealed by the scientific community. Piltdown is not an argument against evolution.
No body else had access for almost fifty years. The hoax was replaced with the stone age ape man myth. And what's with you and evolution no one has a problem with evolution as it's defined scientifically. The problem is a half century of Darwinian deception doesn't bode well for it's credibility.
 
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lesliedellow

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No body else had access for almost fifty years. The hoax was replaced with the stone age ape man myth. And what's with you and evolution no one has a problem with evolution as it's defined scientifically. The problem is a half century of Darwinian deception doesn't bode well for it's credibility.

Oh, so our resident no biologist thinks that a single hoaxer can discredit the weight of evidence in favour of Darwinian evolution.
 
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mark kennedy

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More incoherent babble.

Bad melodrama, nothing more. Sad really.

His standard of mathematical rigour, or lack thereof, would have got him a big time fail in any university maths course today. If he was around today, and if he was a mathematics undergraduate, his lecturers would doubtless be acquainting him with modern standards of mathematical rigour. In that respect, Leibnitz would have a head start on him.

It wouldn't have taken him long to get up to speed and guaranteed he would have ran circles around the likes of you.

Anybody acquainted with the history of mathematics would tell you the same thing. Newton was criticised in his own day for his lack of mathematical rigour:

"Certainly he who can digest a second or third fluxion need not, methinks, be squeamish about any point in divinity." (George Berkeley)

And he was right.

Ok, don't know what that means to you but then again, you probably don't either.

They did not "corospond," and neither did they correspond. The closest they got to a correspondence was an exchange between Leibnitz and Samuel Clarke, an acquaintance of Newton's, after the former had criticised Newtonian mechanics on theological grounds.

Can't even spell it right but ok, Newton said otherwise:

In letters which went between me and that most excellent geometer, G. W. Leibniz, ten years ago, when I signified that I was in the knowledge of a method of determining maxiam and minima, of drawing tangents, and the like, and when I concealed it in transposed letters involving this sentence [the encryption from the 'Epistola Posterior]...that most distinguished man wrote that he had also fallen upon a method of the same kind, and communicated his method, which hardly differed from mine, except in his forms of words and symbols. (Principia, the 'Scholium to Book II, Section II, Proposition VII)​

It depends on who I'm going to believe, you or Sir Isaac Newton.

In your inimitable style, you told me that I knew nothing about science, so I asked you if neither Relativity nor Quantum Theory counted as science.

Never cared what you knew about science, since it's absent from your posts.

And it is just as well it did. Otherwise we would still be thinking that the four elements were earth, wind, water and fire.

I'm not the one giving credit to elementals and Aristotle at least acknowledged God. A thousand years of science now discarded by those who cannot accept that science is just another word for knowledge.

What are you doing dude? All this drama and you still haven't made a single point stick.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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That's when I know I have you when the inflammatory remarks is all that's left. All the lower echelon rank and file strollers demand some answer to a fallacious question. In this case it's an equivocation but it really doesn't matter since your going to ask it in circles endlessly anyway.

It is not a fallacious question, it is one of the simplest questions that has been asked on this forum: can you show scientific evidence that the theory of evolution is neither a scientific theory or a hypothesis?

And don't make any comments like "Oh, evolution is really two things!" or some of the other comments you love to fall back on to avoid the question. We are talking about the theory of evolution put forward and used by all actual biologists across the world. Just answer the question that is asked of you, like a regular and decent person would do.
 
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lesliedellow

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Ok, don't know what that means to you but then again, you probably don't either.

It means that Leibnitz possessed the all important notion of a limiting process, and Newton didn't.


I'm not the one giving credit to elementals and Aristotle at least acknowledged God.

Ah, now we come to the crux of it. Science is bad, bad, bad, because God doesn't appear as a term in the Euler-Lagrange equation.


A thousand years of science now discarded by those who cannot accept that science is just another word for knowledge.

Aristotlean physics has got effectively nothing to contribute to any half way accurate description of the physical world. Had it occurred to Aristotle to formulate his ideas in mathematical terms, his equation of motion would have been F=mv. As he saw it, if you pushed something it moved, if you pushed it harder it moved faster, and if you stopped pushing it, it stopped moving. Therefore velocity must be in some way proportional to force. It took Newton to realise that things weren't quite that simple.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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It means that Leibnitz possessed the all important notion of a limiting process, and Newton didn't.

Ah, now we come to the crux of it. Science is bad, bad, bad, because God doesn't appear as a term in the Euler-Lagrange equation.

Aristotlean physics has got effectively nothing to contribute to any half way accurate description of the physical world.

Isn't it funny how he continually accuses others of going off topic while he's talking about mathematics on a thread about evolution?
 
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AdamSK

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It wasn't even a cleaver hoax and it was replace by chimpanzee ancestors passed off as ours.
It was a very clever hoax. The teeth were filed down to reflect an omnivorous diet; chemicals were used to increase the apparent age; actual fossils hundreds of thousands of years old already were modified to reflect prominent predictions.
Dawson had been fabricating artifacts for decades before he created Piltdown man. He knew how to hit all the buttons for a turn-of-the-century anthropologist.
 
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RickG

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No body else had access for almost fifty years. The hoax was replaced with the stone age ape man myth. And what's with you and evolution no one has a problem with evolution as it's defined scientifically. The problem is a half century of Darwinian deception doesn't bode well for it's credibility.
Yawn.
 
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AdamSK

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No body else had access for almost fifty years. The hoax was replaced with the stone age ape man myth.
Unlike the Piltdown man remains, it's quite easy for any interested researcher to examine australopithecus fossils themselves. They are not a hoax.
 
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lesliedellow

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Isn't it funny how he continually accuses others of going off topic while he's talking about mathematics on a thread about evolution?

He would have a hard time defending the idea that the physical sciences could be an axiomatic and deductive system, with no need for the messy business of observation and the inductive formulation of hypotheses. So he has to resort to Euclid as his hero from antiquity. Heaven knows how he thinks Aristotle can contribute anything to modern physics, let alone biology.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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He would have a hard time defending the idea that the physical sciences could be an axiomatic and deductive system, with no need for the messy business of observation and the inductive formulation of hypotheses. So he has to resort to Euclid as his hero from antiquity. Heaven knows how he thinks Aristotle can contribute anything to modern physics, let alone biology.

Sounds like the simple tactic of citing someone who's famous and intelligent, but with no connection to evolution, and expect a good result.
 
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RickG

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Sounds like the simple tactic of citing someone who's famous and intelligent, but with no connection to evolution, and expect a good result.
Its an appeal to authority plus a large helping obfuscation.
 
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mark kennedy

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I noticed you managed to ignore being wrong about this one.

They did not "corospond," and neither did they correspond.

In letters which went between me and that most excellent geometer, G. W. Leibniz, ten years ago, when I signified that I was in the knowledge of a method of determining maxiam and minima, of drawing tangents, and the like, and when I concealed it in transposed letters involving this sentence [the encryption from the 'Epistola Posterior]...that most distinguished man wrote that he had also fallen upon a method of the same kind, and communicated his method, which hardly differed from mine, except in his forms of words and symbols. (Principia, the 'Scholium to Book II, Section II, Proposition VII)​


It means that Leibnitz possessed the all important notion of a limiting process, and Newton didn't.

Apparently it means whatever you want it to mean.


Ah, now we come to the crux of it. Science is bad, bad, bad, because God doesn't appear as a term in the Euler-Lagrange equation.

Your really sinking fast, I can't count the times I've seen this and it never ceases to amaze me.


Aristotlean physics has got effectively nothing to contribute to any half way accurate description of the physical world. Had it occurred to Aristotle to formulate his ideas in mathematical terms, his equation of motion would have been F=mv. As he saw it, if you pushed something it moved, if you pushed it harder it moved faster, and if you stopped pushing it, it stopped moving. Therefore velocity must be in some way proportional to force. It took Newton to realise that things weren't quite that simple.

For at least a hundred years attempts were made to modernize Aristotelian mechanics but Galileo argued that it should be scraped. Mind you, he was a devout Catholic and wouldn't dream of disparaging Aristotelian ethics or metaphysics. Still, when the professors at Piza couldn't refute him he ended up at the Inquisition. His argument still holds true, the Bible tells us how to get to heaven, not how the heavens work. I don't care about some convoluted equation of motion, it's irrelevant to the doctrine of creation. But don't let me stop you if you want to give that straw man what for, it's none of my business.

He would have a hard time defending the idea that the physical sciences could be an axiomatic and deductive system, with no need for the messy business of observation and the inductive formulation of hypotheses. So he has to resort to Euclid as his hero from antiquity. Heaven knows how he thinks Aristotle can contribute anything to modern physics, let alone biology.

I was making the point that science is about tools, mental and physical and it was not invented overnight during the Scientific Revolution. The accomplishments of the past were not swept away by the development of physics and the principles of motion, they built on Euclidean geometry, they didn't replace it. Great things came from the Scientific Revolution, Algebra and Calculus, telescopes and microscopes, the deductive approach of Aristotelian scholasticism inverted into an inductive approach to natural phenomenon.

Don't think I have forgotten how you dragged this discussion off topic, I remember we were talking about the nature of Science. It's not a modern invention, it's roots reach deep into antiquity. Disparaging the wisdom of the ancients is the height of foolishness. Ever hear of the renaissance? It's a word that means rebirth and it was accomplished not by discarding the wisdom of the ancients but by embracing it and learning it a new.

You must be getting punchy by now, all that melodrama and you still can't make a coherent point stick. You ever think you might be breaking down all the time because you bought a lemon?

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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