Loss of Salvation Question

Kaleb5000

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Sure sounds like a works salvation system to me.

But the Bible teaches otherwise: we are saved by grace through faith, NOT of works.

I agree.

If our salvation depends on works then what do you we need Jesus for?

We have to be Good enough to be saved according to the LOS crowd.

But the bible says

“But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:15‬ ‭ESV

It's a free gift. It's grace. If you have to earn it by works then it is not a gift or grace.


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bcbsr

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Sure sounds like a works salvation system to me.

But the Bible teaches otherwise: we are saved by grace through faith, NOT of works.

I agree. Those who view salvation as contingent upon their ongoing performance put faith in themselves to save themselves by their own performance. They can have no confident hope or joy. Here's some conditional statements they fail to keep.

"if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel" Col 1:23

"We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first." Heb 3:14

Those who make salvation contingent upon one's ongoing performance don't have the confident hope of going to heaven and they don't have the joy of being saved seeing as they don't know whether or not they will ultimately be saved. Eternal Security is part of the gospel. Those who don't believe it don't believe the gospel.

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

The finality of Jesus' statement is in stark contrast to the revolving door scenario of the LOS types.
 
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BobRyan

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As I understand it the LOS crowd are of the opinion that one's potential to be saved is contingent upon one's ongoing performance. Falling short of that performance one loses their potential to be saved and have to gain it back again through confession and the pledge to change one's behavior.

I've seen a bit of diversity among the LOS types as to what constitutes falling short. The Catholics, for example distinguish between "venial" sins, as they define them, which bring the consequence of purgatorial suffering, and "mortal" sins which bring eternal condemnation in hell fire. And I've seen those of the Charles Finney holiness type of soteriology whereby any sin will cause one to lose their potential to be saved.

It's those in particular I would question as to how that is actually lived out. But other LOS run into the same issue.

Namely if, for example, at a point in time you envy your neighbor's property, and thus sin and as such lose your potential to be saved, but you forget that you sinned and consequently end up not confessing it, doesn't that make any such sins as you overlook, unpardonable sins, seeing as no confession follows?

Or is it that such people hold that one is only accountable for sins of which they "feel" guilty for?

Consider three key examples.

Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith.. you should fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you"
Matt 18 - forgiveness revoked. "I forgave you ALL that debt..." then the one forgiven all - has his full debt returned.
Ezekiel 18 - forgiveness revoked


other texts to consider include 1 Cor 6 where Paul argues that certain behaviors get you booted from the camp of the saints.


Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

=====================================

Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again


 
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BobRyan

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I agree. Those who view salvation as contingent upon their ongoing performance put faith in themselves to save themselves by their own performance. They can have no confident hope or joy. .

The ones with no hope are the 3 and 5 point Calvinist - OSAS group who accept the Bible doctrine on perseverance of the saints -- but reject the Bible doctrine on free will and losing salvation.

They have no hope because they cannot know they are saved until 20 years from today when they see that they did in fact persevere. Otherwise if they fail 20 years from now - they will "RETRO DELETE" all the assurance they claim to have today -- saying that even THIS assurance was fake... was not real salvation.

Arminians can know that they are saved today - absolute assurance but cannot know they will choose to remain saved 20 years from today.

3 and 5 point Calvinists -- can't even know that.


But there is another group - the group that says "live like the devil and go to heaven no matter what your life is like". For them they have the flawed assurance of false-doctrine ignoring all the Bible texts on perseverance of the saints.
 
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bcbsr

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Consider three key examples.

Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith.. you should fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you"
Matt 18 - forgiveness revoked. "I forgave you ALL that debt..." then the one forgiven all - has his full debt returned.
Ezekiel 18 - forgiveness revoked


other texts to consider include 1 Cor 6 where Paul argues that certain behaviors get you booted from the camp of the saints.


Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

=====================================

Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again


What you are saying shows that you clearly do not believe the gospel but advocate a salvation by works soteriology as did also the Circumcision in their day. What you fail to realize about Romans 2 is that Paul is speaking of salvation through the works of the Law. But in Romans 3 he concludes that it doesn't work. And therefore in Romans 3:20-24 he says, "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

You interpret Romans 2 to be saying that the gospel is that the doers of the Law will be justified. Paul says - doesn't happen, and that the gospel presents a DIFFERENT WAY to be justified APART FROM LAW. No one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law As such you're saying that you reject the gospel and opt for the Law. Now consider also Rom 2:7 in this light, as you quoted. Yes to those who PERSEVERE in doing good, they will be granted eternal life. But Paul concludes there are no such people who persevere in doing good.

Thus Paul writes of the curse of the Law. All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Gal 3:10 You're living under a curse. "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Gal 5:4

In contrast to your soteriology, "We (who have been saved by faith apart from works) know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified." Gal 2:16

As for Romans 11, he's not talking about individuals but categories of people - Jew and Gentiles. You yourself are outside the faith, and thus should fear. The gospel is a stumbling point to you. You reject the gospel. Reading Romans 11 you overlook Romans 10 and the rest of what Paul said prior to that. "Since they (you) did not know the righteousness that comes from God and (you) sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man (you) who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’" (that is, to bring Christ down) "or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."" Romans 10:3-11

Ezek 18 again is talking about the righteousness of the Law. In fact the words "faith" and "believe" are absent from the entire book of Ezekiel. Maybe you should stick with the New Testament where things are stated EXPLICITLY rather that reading your soteriology into obscure passages.

As for Mt 18 and 1Cor 6, dogs go back to their vomit and pigs to their wallowing the mud, but sheep behave as sheep because they are sheep. Thus "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10 This is not preaching performance based salvation but salvation based performance. One's performance REVEALS rather than CAUSES one's salvation status.

Catholicism - the progenitor of the Neo-Circumcision sects, says in their Canon Law, "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" Those who align themselves with such a soteriology as Catholicism advocates are likewise of the Neo-Circumcision.

Of those types Paul writes, "This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves." Gal 2:4 The LOS - the Neo-Circumcision - wants to enslave Christians to their legalistic soteriology and slander those who believe the gospel by claiming that the gospel leads to license, licentiousness. "Why not say— as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say— "Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved." Rom 3:7 Such is the fate of those who misrepresent the gospel and those how bear fall witness against us who advocate the gospel.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Consider three key examples.

Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith.. you should fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you"
Matt 18 - forgiveness revoked. "I forgave you ALL that debt..." then the one forgiven all - has his full debt returned.
Ezekiel 18 - forgiveness revoked

other texts to consider include 1 Cor 6 where Paul argues that certain behaviors get you booted from the camp of the saints.

Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again
The plain fact is none of these Scriptures SAY that salvation can be lost. And, there are clear passages that teach eternal security.

Here are some of them:

All references are from the NASB:

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, Jesus noted how people are saved in John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

The Greek word for “enters” is in the aorist tense, meaning “in a point in time”, as opposed to the present tense, which those who believe in loss of salvation only emphasize. Iow, one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life. Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 “believed and be saved”.

Sixth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.
 
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BobRyan

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As I understand it the LOS crowd are of the opinion that one's potential to be saved is contingent upon one's ongoing performance. Falling short of that performance one loses their potential to be saved and have to gain it back again through confession and the pledge to change one's behavior.

I've seen a bit of diversity among the LOS types as to what constitutes falling short. The Catholics, for example distinguish between "venial" sins, as they define them, which bring the consequence of purgatorial suffering, and "mortal" sins which bring eternal condemnation in hell fire. And I've seen those of the Charles Finney holiness type of soteriology whereby any sin will cause one to lose their potential to be saved.

It's those in particular I would question as to how that is actually lived out. But other LOS run into the same issue.

Namely if, for example, at a point in time you envy your neighbor's property, and thus sin and as such lose your potential to be saved, but you forget that you sinned and consequently end up not confessing it, doesn't that make any such sins as you overlook, unpardonable sins, seeing as no confession follows?

Or is it that such people hold that one is only accountable for sins of which they "feel" guilty for?

Consider three key examples.

Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith.. you should fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you"
Matt 18 - forgiveness revoked. "I forgave you ALL that debt..." then the one forgiven all - has his full debt returned.
Ezekiel 18 - forgiveness revoked


other texts to consider include 1 Cor 6 where Paul argues that certain behaviors get you booted from the camp of the saints.


Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

=====================================

Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again


25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.




What you are saying shows that you clearly do not believe the gospel

On the contrary what these texts show is that the Gospel that is in the actual Bible - goes against the man-made traditions and preferences that some folks hold today.

Thus the mere quote of the text is sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection to it.

. What you fail to realize about Romans 2 is that Paul is speaking of salvation through the works of the Law.


Have you imagined to yourself that Romans 2 is fully opposing your gospel and that thus -- your doctrine does not survive Romans 2?

Have you imagined that in Romans 2 there are only failing examples??

Romans 3 says that salvation by works does not work - but Romans 2 is preaching the Gospel according to Vs 6 and it is a gospel that 'leads to repentence' as we see in Romans 2:4.

Is the same Gospel of Christ in Matt 7 "By their fruits you shall know them".

If your gospel opposes the Gospel of Christ in Matt 7 and the gospel of Paul in Romans 2 -- it must then be a false gospel.


You interpret Romans 2 to be saying that the gospel is that the doers of the Law will be justified.

I merely quoted Romans 2. You then argue against it -- based merely on the quote of it.

We can all see that.

Your entire argument is "Romans 2 is not true".

Sola scriptura testing that ends up with "the Bible is not true" is the sort of "Test" that tosses out the bible to keep man-made tradition.

Notice the "Bible details"

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
 
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Consider three key examples.

Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith.. you should fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you"
Matt 18 - forgiveness revoked. "I forgave you ALL that debt..." then the one forgiven all - has his full debt returned.
Ezekiel 18 - forgiveness revoked


other texts to consider include 1 Cor 6 where Paul argues that certain behaviors get you booted from the camp of the saints.


Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

=====================================

Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again


The plain fact is none of these Scriptures SAY that salvation can be lost.

In Romans 11 the believing "stand only by your faith " saved saints are told to 'fear' for if God did not spare unbelieving non-Christian Jews - neither will he spare you -- for God's kindness is given to you "IF you continue".

Now you are arguing that the fate of non-Christian unbelieving Jews is not -- being lost - but rather some "other kind of saved condition"??? And thus this is not warning saints of falling from Grace - of being lost?

You will need back that kind of fiction up - with actual Bible proof - in Romans 11 showing sound exegesis.

Showing preference is not the same thing as Bible proof of a doctrine.

The whole point of bringing up Romans 11 and Romans 2 and Matt 18 and Ezekiel 18 is to show chapters were OSAS does not survive the sola scriptura test. IT is in the test that the proof will be seen.

Your solution is to go to some other text that does not so directly challenge OSAS and then claim it will survive that text, and having survived one text to assume that it must in some way survive texts that actually do challenge that doctrine.

I freely admit that OSAS cannot be shown to fail to survive every single text in the Bible. Rather it does not survive the pointed texts that speak specifically to the issue of warning and failure - as given in these examples.

Avoiding the texts - - is not "a solution" that will satisfy the sola-scriptura test.
 
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bling

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I agree.

If our salvation depends on works then what do you we need Jesus for?

We have to be Good enough to be saved according to the LOS crowd.

But the bible says

“But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:15‬ ‭ESV

It's a free gift. It's grace. If you have to earn it by works then it is not a gift or grace.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

A 16 year old is given unconditionally a nice sedan with the title signed over to him. It is a free gift he now personally owns and is very happy to have it. Prior to getting his license at 18 he develops new friends that get him into heavy drinking and he does not want to be the designated driver, so since the car is truly his he can sell it or give it away, but no one can take it from him. The fact it has a pure platinum engine worth 200 million dollars under the hood does not affect his decision, since he never looked under the hood.

The Hebrew writer uses the analogy of a birthright which like Esau did can be sold or given away, but no one could take it from him
 
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Avoiding the texts - - is not "a solution" that will satisfy the sola-scriptura test.
Which is precisely what you've done. Again, NONE of the verses you've provided state that salvation can be lost. One must assume a lot in order to come up with such an understanding.

otoh, Rom 11:29 SAYS that the gifts of God are irrevocable. And Rom 6:23 SAYS that eternal life is a gift of God.

These 2 verses refute your assumptions about all your verses.
 
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A 16 year old is given unconditionally a nice sedan with the title signed over to him. It is a free gift he now personally owns and is very happy to have it. Prior to getting his license at 18 he develops new friends that get him into heavy drinking and he does not want to be the designated driver, so since the car is truly his he can sell it or give it away, but no one can take it from him. The fact it has a pure platinum engine worth 200 million dollars under the hood does not affect his decision, since he never looked under the hood.

The Hebrew writer uses the analogy of a birthright which like Esau did can be sold or given away, but no one could take it from him
If this is a suggestion that one's salvation can be given away, what Scripture led to that view?
 
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bling

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If this is a suggestion that one's salvation can be given away, what Scripture led to that view?

Heb. 12: 14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.


Gal. 6: 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Heb. 3: 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Heb. 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Of course salvation can be lost. It happened to me. I got saved then continually went on sinning. Im constantly trembling and in fear of the Lord. What a horrible mistake I made. The fire is gonna hurt so bad
What did Jesus say in John 5:24?
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

It appears that you don't believe what Jesus said. Those who believe HAVE (present tense) eternal life, does NOT come into judgment, but has passed out of spiritual death into eternal life.

Or what Jesus said in John 10:28:
"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one (person; which includes oneself) will snatch them out of My hand."

Maybe you were never saved in the first place, since you don't believe what Jesus said.

How do you know that we were ever saved? And how do you know that you lost salvation?
 
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BobRyan

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As I understand it the LOS crowd are of the opinion that one's potential to be saved is contingent upon one's ongoing performance. Falling short of that performance one loses their potential to be saved and have to gain it back again through confession and the pledge to change one's behavior.

I've seen a bit of diversity among the LOS types as to what constitutes falling short. The Catholics, for example distinguish between "venial" sins, as they define them, which bring the consequence of purgatorial suffering, and "mortal" sins which bring eternal condemnation in hell fire. And I've seen those of the Charles Finney holiness type of soteriology whereby any sin will cause one to lose their potential to be saved.

It's those in particular I would question as to how that is actually lived out. But other LOS run into the same issue.

Namely if, for example, at a point in time you envy your neighbor's property, and thus sin and as such lose your potential to be saved, but you forget that you sinned and consequently end up not confessing it, doesn't that make any such sins as you overlook, unpardonable sins, seeing as no confession follows?

Or is it that such people hold that one is only accountable for sins of which they "feel" guilty for?

Consider three key examples.

Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith.. you should fear for if He did not spare them neither will He spare you"
Matt 18 - forgiveness revoked. "I forgave you ALL that debt..." then the one forgiven all - has his full debt returned.
Ezekiel 18 - forgiveness revoked


other texts to consider include 1 Cor 6 where Paul argues that certain behaviors get you booted from the camp of the saints.


Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

=====================================

Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again


25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.





What you are saying shows that you clearly do not believe the gospel

On the contrary what these texts show is that the Gospel that is in the actual Bible - goes against the man-made traditions and preferences that some folks hold today.

Thus the mere quote of the text is sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection to it.

. What you fail to realize about Romans 2 is that Paul is speaking of salvation through the works of the Law.


Have you imagined to yourself that Romans 2 is fully opposing your gospel and that thus -- your doctrine does not survive Romans 2?

Have you imagined that in Romans 2 there are only failing examples??

Romans 3 says that salvation by works does not work - but Romans 2 is preaching the Gospel according to Vs 6 and it is a gospel that 'leads to repentence' as we see in Romans 2:4.

Is the same Gospel of Christ in Matt 7 "By their fruits you shall know them".

If your gospel opposes the Gospel of Christ in Matt 7 and the gospel of Paul in Romans 2 -- it must then be a false gospel.


You interpret Romans 2 to be saying that the gospel is that the doers of the Law will be justified.

I merely quoted Romans 2. You then argue against it -- based merely on the quote of it.

We can all see that.

Your entire argument is "Romans 2 is not true".

Sola scriptura testing that ends up with "the Bible is not true" is the sort of "Test" that tosses out the bible to keep man-made tradition.

Notice the "Bible details"

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
======================================

In Romans 11 the believing "stand only by your faith " saved saints are told to 'fear' for if God did not spare unbelieving non-Christian Jews - neither will he spare you -- for God's kindness is given to you "IF you continue".

Now you are arguing that the fate of non-Christian unbelieving Jews is not -- being lost - but rather some "other kind of saved condition"??? And thus this is not warning saints of falling from Grace - of being lost?

You will need back that kind of fiction up - with actual Bible proof - in Romans 11 showing sound exegesis.

Showing preference is not the same thing as Bible proof of a doctrine.

The whole point of bringing up Romans 11 and Romans 2 and Matt 18 and Ezekiel 18 is to show chapters were OSAS does not survive the sola scriptura test. IT is in the test that the proof will be seen.

Your solution is to go to some other text that does not so directly challenge OSAS and then claim it will survive that text, and having survived one text to assume that it must in some way survive texts that actually do challenge that doctrine.

I freely admit that OSAS cannot be shown to fail to survive every single text in the Bible. Rather it does not survive the pointed texts that speak specifically to the issue of warning and failure - as given in these examples.

Avoiding the texts - - is not "a solution" that will satisfy the sola-scriptura test.

Which is precisely what you've done.

you have not shown that speculation to be true at all.

Again, NONE of the verses you've provided state that salvation can be lost.

wishful thinking again.

You never show that the non-Christian unbelieving Jews of Romans 11 are not lost. Paul warns the saved saints that they will suffer the same fate -- an you merely turn a blind eye to it???

Really??




, Rom 11:29 SAYS that the gifts of God are irrevocable. And Rom 6:23 SAYS that eternal life is a gift of God.

Romans 11:29 speaks of God's promises to the unsaved - unbelieving - non-Christian Jews represented as "failing" in the Romans 11 chapter.

Paul is not arguing that the Christ-denying Jews are "Saved no matter what" in Romans 11. He is arguing that God wants to save them. Your solution of ignoring the entire chapter and landing on that one verse - does not work.
 
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I asked this:
"If this is a suggestion that one's salvation can be given away, what Scripture led to that view?"
Heb. 12: 14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.
Selling one's inheritance rights has no bearing on one's salvation. Why would anyone think that? And this passage STILL does NOT say anything about giving away one's salvation.

Gal. 6: 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
Again, there is NO mention of giving away one's salvation. btw, to "reap eternal life" means to have eternal rewards. Reaping involves work or effort, which will be rewarded.

But salvation is by grace through faith, not of works. Eph 2:8,9 Never forget that.

Heb. 3: 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.
Once again, there is NO mention of giving away one's salvation. The phrase "share in Christ" has nothing to do with getting saved. It's about fellowship with Christ and fruit production, AND the eternal reward of co-reigning with Christ (Rom 8:17b and 2 Tim 2:12). Unless the believer holds firmly to the very end, he WON'T be rewarded.

Heb. 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.
The "rest" of Hebrews has nothing to do with salvation, but eternal rewards.

According to your view, Heb 3:19 would indicate that Moses went to hell. Yet, he appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration with Elijah when Jesus was glorified. How would one explain that?

What you've done here is to make huge assumptions about verses that clearly DON'T say what you think they say.

And, once again, the gifts of God are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29 and eternal life is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23.

Since eternal life isn't an object, which can be lost, thrown away, given away, etc, and is given by God, ONLY God has the authority and right to take it away. And He has promised that He won't.

But it seems some just don't believe what God says.
 
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Sure sounds like a works salvation system to me.

But the Bible teaches otherwise: we are saved by grace through faith, NOT of works.


We all agree that we are a saved by grace, but grace enables cooperation with God's will.

Thei bible does not teach that we are saved by faith alone. Paul tells us that we are not saved by works of the Jewish Law. We all agree with this.

You seem to think we can be saved even if we live a life disobeying the teachings of Jesus. That is not what the bible teaches.

By what right do you ignore these crystal clear words of scripture?

James 2:24
14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?...24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Romans 2
6God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Matt 25
4“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Matt 6:15
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
 
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I asked this:
"If this is a suggestion that one's salvation can be given away, what Scripture led to that view?"

Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. ...

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again


25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


Matt 18 (Forgiveness revoked)
31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

1 Cor 9
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached the Gospel to others, I myself will not be disqualified from it.

1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified


Ezekiel 18 (forgiveness revoked)
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. 25 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.


 
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Coming out of the dark ages one of the key contributing factors was the willingness to judge doctrine "sola scriptura" rather than "sola tradition and long-standing preference" - or even "sola feelings"
 
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