Faith? What do you mean by faith?

[Moral Orel]

The carnal man cannot understand these things. Have you not read what Paul said?

Spiritual things are discerned spiritually and it should be bizarre to you for you are devoid of the Spirit. Our conversation, our knowledge, our insight is off limits to you because you are still dead in your trespasses and sins. Until you are regenerated you are as a blind man listening to the conversations of men who have 20/20 vision describing the marvelous things they see.

You must be born again. You must repent.

But I can't be born again until I believe... But wait, if I believe, then I'll get my proof! That's the order it's supposed to be in!

 

[anonymous person]

But I can't be born again until I believe... But wait, if I believe, then I'll get my proof! That's the order it's supposed to be in!

Actually you are wrong again. Seems you spend most of your time attacking this strawman of Christianity you have erected.

 

[Moral Orel]

Actually you are wrong again. Seems you spend most of your time attacking this strawman of Christianity you have erected.

In order to understand these things, I have to be born-again. In order to be born-again I have to believe. In order to believe I need to understand these things.

 

[anonymous person]

In order to understand these things, I have to be born-again. In order to be born-again I have to believe. In order to believe I need to understand these things.

You're not as ignorant as you let on.

You know very well that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draw him.

 

[bling]

You're not as ignorant as you let on.

You know very well that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draw him.

Jesus tells us in parables that: “the master (God) has a very compelling “draw” with an invitation to a huge wonderful banquet, but not everyone will accept the invitation. The Master does not kidnap his guests, but strongly persuades them with words to come, but they still have the free will to refuse to go.

Everyone at the banquet was invited first by the master (God) to be there.

 

[Sam91]

I always believed as a child, which turned into faith strong enough to ask Jesus in and give my life over to Him as a teen. I would say it was the same as the first example in the OP of the thread.

It then turned into undeniable personal proof as God answered my prayers and performed little miracles in my life.

I fell away but always wanted back. My faith was there but my understanding put stumbling blocks in my way. The Lord healed me one day when I was testifying how he would heal me if it was in His will and I prayed with 100 percent faith. As soon as I stated that to my husband I was healed. I still couldn't feel forgiven to come home though.

Then about 6 weeks ago I came home and His Spirit has spoken to me through the bible. So many mathematical impossible coincidences have happened since. So I could not be able to deny His existance ever. I am so grateful for this.

 

[Sam91]

I also couldn't deny His existance while I was trapped in the wilderness.

 

[skalle]

When doubts arise, we need something solid that we can fall back on to remind of why we have good reason to believe, which a sign is not.

Okay, so what is something solid? I've got nothing.

I think that investigating how we can know that the Bible is true is not something that should be discouraged or something that should shake us to our core, but rather it is something that is healthy that should be encouraged that is vitally important for every Christian to have a solid grasp of, in which many churches have sadly failed to educate us

I'm not too interested in debating the nitty-gritty of the Bible. I'm interested in claims like Moses speaking to God in a burning bush and Jesus coming back from the dead after being buried three days. Why in the world should I believe any of that?

I think this goes back to correctly understanding faith. God gives us faith by putting us in situations where we need to depend on Him.

...except that in situations where I've tried to depend on Him, I come away feeling less and less confident that He even exists.

However, I hope you don't take offense at this, but if wherever you go people are reacting to you in the same way, then the problem might have more to do with you than with them. Again, it is hard for me say whether that is the case without knowing your circumstances, but it might be worth considering whether there are any changes that you should make to improve. Furthermore, if you lose your faith because of how other Christians act, then it might be the case that your faith was not in God, but in other Christians.

Coming from you, I'm not offended. I'm not talking so much about how other people react to me, but to churches in general... the way people treat each other, the way the pastor preaches and interacts with the congregation, the way "outsiders" are treated, bad theology, cult-like vibes, and the like. Frankly I rarely stick around long enough to make friends, and if I do happen to make a few, they end up leaving the church too. Also, the way I see Christians act is a symptom, not a cause. To me, the fact that Christians seem no different than anyone else is proof that there is nothing supernatural happening in their lives. I know that probably seems personal, but there really is no nicer way of putting it.

You could start with one example.

The ongoing thread concerning Mosaic law contains many examples, actually. I haven't posted in it, but a quick skim over the objections to Mosaic law closely mirror my own thoughts.

The Bible doesn't attempt to prove the existence of God, but rather it starts "In the beginning God...", so it is more about answering the question of who God is and what He has done. I don't know if you've heard of William Lane Craig or watched any of his debates, but he gives a few arguments for the existence of the God of classical theism and then gives an argument for the resurrection of Jesus, which is an essentially an argument for the Christian identity of this being. I think Thomas Aquinas makes strong arguments for the existence of God and recommended Edward Feser's book Aquinas if you are somewhat philosophically inclined.

I studied Aquinas a bit in college, but I don't remember much of him. I also come from a background that is highly skeptical of Aquinas' scholasticism, that is Russian Orthodoxy, so I've never been too inclined to go more in-depth. Any arguments in particular you find convincing?

 

[Moral Orel]

You're not as ignorant as you let on.

You know very well that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draw him.

I am so that ignorant! What does it mean to be "drawn"?

CS Lewis was convinced into Christianity by Apologetics like this section of the forums. Some people have a sickness go away and feel it was a miracle. Some people have visions of God or Jesus in their dreams. Some people have near-death-experiences that make them believers. Are all of those things "God drawing them"?

I've been through all the different apologetics angles people have, and they all have holes in their story. I don't see that drawing me any time soon. If I have to wait for God to act in any of the other ways, am I responsible if I never come to be a believer because God didn't do what was necessary and He knew it? The Bible also says I have "no excuse" for not being a Christian and for not believing in God. But the passage I quoted says I shouldn't dare ask how God could hold me responsible for Him making me a sinner if that's what he "molded" me to be. It's all very convoluted, and I do not understand it.

But then you tell me that I would understand it if I was a born-again Christian. So which is supposed to come first?

 

[Sam91]

If you asked Jesus into your life and your heart was sincere you would see the truth as the Holy Spirit would come upon you. It really is that simple. If you are asking 'are you real?' that might not happen as you are testing God. You just take that jump of faith while believing and then over the coming days while not doubting your decision you get confirmations of it through miraculous small wonders. Its not deluding yourself because they are mathematically impossible. You just need to have strong fairh but even a small amount of strong faith and all the doors are opened unto you.

 

[Sam91]

I am so that ignorant! What does it mean to be "drawn"?

CS Lewis was convinced into Christianity by Apologetics like this section of the forums. Some people have a sickness go away and feel it was a miracle. Some people have visions of God or Jesus in their dreams. Some people have near-death-experiences that make them believers. Are all of those things "God drawing them"?

I've been through all the different apologetics angles people have, and they all have holes in their story. I don't see that drawing me any time soon. If I have to wait for God to act in any of the other ways, am I responsible if I never come to be a believer because God didn't do what was necessary and He knew it? The Bible also says I have "no excuse" for not being a Christian and for not believing in God. But the passage I quoted says I shouldn't dare ask how God could hold me responsible for Him making me a sinner if that's what he "molded" me to be. It's all very convoluted, and I do not understand it.

But then you tell me that I would understand it if I was a born-again Christian. So which is supposed to come first?

If you asked Jesus into your life and your heart was sincere you would see the truth as the Holy Spirit would come upon you. It really is that simple. If you are asking 'are you real?' that might not happen as you are testing God. You just take that jump of faith while believing and then over the coming days while not doubting your decision you get confirmations of it through miraculous small wonders. Its not deluding yourself because they are mathematically impossible. You just need to have strong fairh but even a small amount of strong faith and all the doors are opened unto you.

 

[skalle]

If you asked Jesus into your life and your heart was sincere you would see the truth as the Holy Spirit would come upon you. It really is that simple.

No it isn't. No Holy Spirit ever came upon me, and I've tried literally hundreds of times.

If you are asking 'are you real?' that might not happen as you are testing God.

Asking God an earnest question is now testing him? Some God.

You just take that jump of faith while believing and then over the coming days while not doubting your decision you get confirmations of it through miraculous small wonders. Its not deluding yourself because they are mathematically impossible. You just need to have strong fairh but even a small amount of strong faith and all the doors are opened unto you.

Where does this faith come from? What in the world would cause me to make that jump of faith you're talking about? Why would I make a decision to dedicate my life to a God that does not seem to exist? And is it not testing God to expect confirmations of one's ill-founded decisions through miraculous small wonders? And what if one is like me and never sees any of these miraculous small wonders regardless and no doors are opened to me?

 

[Moral Orel]

No it isn't. No Holy Spirit ever came upon me, and I've tried literally hundreds of times.


Asking God an earnest question is now testing him? Some God.


Where does this faith come from? What in the world would cause me to make that jump of faith you're talking about? Why would I make a decision to dedicate my life to a God that does not seem to exist? And is it not testing God to expect confirmations of one's ill-founded decisions through miraculous small wonders? And what if one is like me and never sees any of these miraculous small wonders regardless and no doors are opened to me?

Since that post was directed at both of us, I'll just say, "My sentiments exactly".

 

[Sam91]

Sorry, I just took yr post at face value. I was answering the last paragraph below.
I can only speak of my own experience I suppose. But I always believed as a small child even though my parents didn't.

I didn't mean to cause any offense, feel awfully guilty now. I meant well. Sorry x

But then you tell me that I would understand it if I was a born-again Christian. So which is supposed to come first?

 

[Moral Orel]

Sorry, I just took yr post at face value. I was answering the last paragraph below.
I can only speak of my own experience I suppose. But I always believed as a small child even though my parents didn't.

I didn't mean to cause any offense, feel awfully guilty now. I meant well. Sorry x

No offense taken, don't worry. I was just saying I went through all the same processes and attempts that skalle did, and nothing ever came of it. I was utterly sincere a long time ago. Now, I can't honestly say I would expect something to happen after all those failed attempts.

I have thick skin. Never worry that you offended me.

 

[Sam91]

Thank you for being so gracious. I really ought to remember in future though that not every one is the same.

I was reading a salvation prayer (my son wanted to become a Christian) article, and it said not everyone feels anything different.

I hope you get some kind of sudden spiritual manifestation, something nice and concrete someday as it seems quite harsh that you were so sincere and something was in the way to your feeling saved x

 

[Moral Orel]

Thank you for being so gracious. I really ought to remember in future though that not every one is the same.

I was reading a salvation prayer (my son wanted to become a Christian) article, and it said not everyone feels anything different.

I hope you get some kind of sudden spiritual manifestation, something nice and concrete someday as it seems quite harsh that you were so sincere and something was in the way to your feeling saved x

Personally, I feel as though my faith probably is the size of a mustard seed. There are a lot of coincidences with the idea of there being a God that I can't dismiss completely out of hand. But as much as I ask, that mountain simply won't jump into the sea.

 

[Moral Orel]

The ongoing thread concerning Mosaic law contains many examples, actually. I haven't posted in it, but a quick skim over the objections to Mosaic law closely mirror my own thoughts.

Since that's my thread I'd like to point out that the point of the thread isn't to denounce God or call Him evil, although that's what people there arguing with me keep assuming I'm arguing.

Ideas in the OT are pretty much the same as other cultures of the time. Just because it's full of terrible stuff doesn't mean God is terrible, it just means (to me at least) that God didn't directly intervene as much as people claim He did. There are other reasons, good reasons, to think God likely doesn't exist. That thread is about taking things in the Bible as divine inspiration that really don't sound like they came from a perfect, loving, just God.

In short, the point is to say, if God exists, He wouldn't have done what the OT claims He did, but that doesn't prove He doesn't exist or that He's evil. Is it possible for the Christian God to exist and the Bible not be divinely inspired word for word? I think so. The Bible, to me, is at best a chronicle of people encountering God, not written by God even if they claim it was.

 

[Athée]

Personally, I feel as though my faith probably is the size of a mustard seed. There are a lot of coincidences with the idea of there being a God that I can't dismiss completely out of hand. But as much as I ask, that mountain simply won't jump into the sea.

Well then clearly it is not the size of a mustard seed, must be smaller or Jesus mispoke or someone else blew the recording of his words. It's hard to have faith when the deity is so poorly defined and the doctrines are likewise ill defined.

 

[Sam91]

Well then clearly it is not the size of a mustard seed, must be smaller or Jesus mispoke or someone else blew the recording of his words. It's hard to have faith when the deity is so poorly defined and the doctrines are likewise ill defined.

I suppose all I can do is pray for you if you'd like. Other than that I don't know what I could say other than to remove your doubts when taking a leap of faith. But I guess thats not easy.