The brain is not sufficient for consciousness

[miknik5]

When HE who holds all things back (by His everyday Grace upon all men) is taken out of the way (temporarily) than all the things that we held as long held truths will no longer hold.

It is what I was talking about when I first posted to this thread

God holds all things back so that we are never completely consumed bit the time when HE temporarily hides HIS Face from "Jacob's struggles". Will be a time like never before

And in that day many will be confused and rather than waiting and trusting in HIS sovereign control (even when things are completely out of control) men will look up, curse/blame their God and their king and be cast into ittef darkness

....blessed the man who waits for Him and trusts that He who delays will no longer delay but come straightway

Blessed the man who does not "go out" from Him but holds to the Testimony of Jesus

 

[Freodin]

2Thesselonians 2

You have to be a little more specific what in 2 Thes 2 you think shows a "clearly crashing system" and what, in this regard, is your question concerning consciousness as an expression of a physical system.

 

[miknik5]

It is the reason I initially mentioned Nebuchadnezzer and as well his dream about the tree cut down which is simply a dream of exalted man who does not acknowledge God as the giver of all things: Which includes our talent, our health, our intelligence, our minds

It's when HE is taken out of the way that these things will no longer hold and a man will either acknowledge the Truth of God and repent and cry out to Him or he will not repent but will rather blame God and curse Him for the things that will come upon the earth in the last days

 

[miknik5]

You have to be a little more specific what in 2 Thes 2 you think shows a "clearly crashing system" and what, in this regard, is your question concerning consciousness as an expression of a physical system.

Oh yes it is because it is God who holds all things back but when He is taken out of the way then evil will have its full reign

And man not understanding the Goodness of God who held things back from us so that we were never totally consumed will no longer hold it back and man who did not acknowledge the truth of His Grace will not repent but will rather and in error curse and blame Him

And those who do will in the end be willing to accept any "new and false manifestation of God" just so as to receive temporary and temporal healing from the trouble that will come in the last days

 

[Freodin]

It is the reason I initially mentioned Nebuchadnezzer and as well his dream about the tree cut down which is simply a dream of exalted man who does not acknowledge God as the giver of all things: Which includes our talent, our health, our intelligence, our minds

It's when HE is taken out of the way that these things will no longer hold and a man will either acknowledge the Truth of God and repent and cry out to Him or he will not repent but will rather blame God and curse Him for the things that will come upon the earth in the last days

Maybe I am reading the wrong 2nd letter to the Thessalonians... but there is nothing about Nebuchadnezzar in this text.

So I have to ask again: what do you mean? How does your question relate to the question at hand?

 

[miknik5]

Please do not negate what you fully do not understand

 

[Freodin]

Please do not negate what you fully do not understand

This isn't an answer to my question. I would love to answer your question, but I do not understand what you are even asking. This doesn't mean I "negate" it. It just means that I would appreciate it if you could clarify your question.

 

[miknik5]

This isn't an answer to my question. I would love to answer your question, but I do not understand what you are even asking. This doesn't mean I "negate" it. It just means that I would appreciate it if you could clarify your question.

freodin. God in His goodness is the One who holds all things back so that we are never completely destroyed. Every good thing comes from God. And it is His everyday Grace upon all that He holds things back (2thesselonians 2) even the natural everyday truths which we have held as long held truths will no longer hold
And that is outside input that will be very difficult to comprehend

Think about Nebuchadnezzer whose mind was changed to an animal and also think about Jobs sufferings when the "hedge" of Gods protection was removed

 

[Freodin]

freodin. God in His goodness is the One who holds all things back so that we are never completely destroyed. Every good thing comes from God. And it is His everyday Grace upon all that He holds things back (2thesselonians 2) even the natural everyday truths which we have held as long held truths will no longer hold
And that is outside input that will be bery difficult to comprehend

Ok, I think I got your position. Based on the assumption that I understood you correctly, I can now attempt an answer to your initial question.

"Well what happens when the "natural system" and order of things clearly crashes?"

In this case, we will have a bunch of new informations to deal with and base our understanding on. Until then, we can only work from the "long held truths" that we can and do have, and these informations make a lot more sense if we assume consciousness to be an emergent property of the physical system "brain" than an unknown outside system.

If we consider that potential new information that we are deliberately kept from cannot have any influence on our models, even the idea of consciousness as an outside source is contradictory.

Think about Nebuchadnezzer who whose mind was changed to an animal and also think about Jobs sufferings when the "hedge" of Gods protection was removed

There is nothing about Nebuchadnezzar that implies consciousness itself as being from an outside source. Changes in the mind can be and are easily explained by physical events.

And the story of Job hasn't any relevance here. No one denies to possibilities of something from an outside source happening to you... the problem here is the outsite source being "you" (your consciousness).

 

[miknik5]

This is why I said what wil we do when all the things which we naturally expect that have held as long held truths no longer hold then what will happen to us

Here we are receiving unusual out of the ordinary input and there are two options

Either a man will become confused and curse God or will acknowledge the Truth repent and wait

Ok, I think I got your position. Based on the assumption that I understood you correctly, I can now attempt an answer to your initial question.

"Well what happens when the "natural system" and order of things clearly crashes?"

In this case, we will have a bunch of new informations to deal with and base our understanding on. Until then, we can only work from the "long held truths" that we can and do have, and these informations make a lot more sense if we assume consciousness to be an emergent property of the physical system "brain" than an unknown outside system.

If we consider that potential new information that we are deliberately kept from cannot have any influence on our models, even the idea of consciousness as an outside source is contradictory.


There is nothing about Nebuchadnezzar that implies consciousness itself as being from an outside source. Changes in the mind can be and are easily explained by physical events.

And the story of Job hasn't any relevance here. No one denies to possibilities of something from an outside source happening to you... the problem here is the outsite source being "you" (your consciousness).

we aren't the outside source and we certainly would never long for these things to happen

They will happen and these are the unexplained outside influences which will effect the inner man


Why do you think men will faint and their hearts will fail them over all the things that will happen in the last days

 

[miknik5]

Ok, I think I got your position. Based on the assumption that I understood you correctly, I can now attempt an answer to your initial question.

"Well what happens when the "natural system" and order of things clearly crashes?"

In this case, we will have a bunch of new informations to deal with and base our understanding on. Until then, we can only work from the "long held truths" that we can and do have, and these informations make a lot more sense if we assume consciousness to be an emergent property of the physical system "brain" than an unknown outside system.

If we consider that potential new information that we are deliberately kept from cannot have any influence on our models, even the idea of consciousness as an outside source is contradictory.


There is nothing about Nebuchadnezzar that implies consciousness itself as being from an outside source. Changes in the mind can be and are easily explained by physical events.

And the story of Job hasn't any relevance here. No one denies to possibilities of something from an outside source happening to you... the problem here is the outsite source being "you" (your consciousness).

The story of Jon has relevance in that the "hedge" was removed


Job of course acknowledged God but he also made manifest by what he did not do that he knew God.
While Job waited not wanting to open his mouth before God lest his mouth cause him to sin, it was his friends by what they did who showed that they did not know God and in fact falsely portrayed God as a respecter of persons

They were the ones who encouraged Job to state his case before God Job wouldn't. Job knew God allows his dun and rain to shine and fall in both the "righteous " and the wicked. So Job not fully understanding all that was happening still understood this

He knew his redeemer lives and though his flesh may wear away still and even in his flesh his eyes would see Him standing upon the earth in the last days

Both Job and Nebuchadnezzer were pictures representations in service to Gods people to understand and to wait and to keep their eyes set above and beyond to Him who is faithful and true in all seasons

Daniel prophecied:
Blessed the man who waits 1335 days

All these things are prophecied concerning the time of the end

 

[Freodin]

All these things are prophecied concerning the time of the end

And nothing of all these things have something to do with the question of the brain being or not being suffcient for consciousness.

Even if we were to accept everything you said as absolutely correct, it would be a valid position that the consciousness is the emergent property of the God-given brain, just as the pulse is the emergent property of the God-given system of blood circulation.

 

[miknik5]

It doesn't? The fact that men's hearts will fail them shows that the brain will not be able to even handle all the "input" that will happen upon the earth in those days

 

[miknik5]

It doesn't? The fact that men's hearts will fail them shows that the brain will not be able to even handle all the "input" that will happen upon the earth in those days

The heart and the mind are the inner spirit of a man. It is this hidden part of a man that is made manifest by what the man does or doesn't do

A body is a shell. A visible vessel that houses the spirit (heart and mind) of a man

Many will be made manifest by what they do or do not do in the last days, during a time like no other. And the brain is not sufficient for consciousness because man, in order to protect himself will do or will not do things that shouldnt be or should be done

And those mechanisms the man uses in the last days are not the mechanisms that will "save"

It may be a temporal wellbeing and protection from what will come upon the earth in that day but it will not in the end bring them eternal life

 

[Eudaimonist]

A body is a shell. A visible vessel that houses the spirit (heart and mind) of a man

Then what is the point of the brain?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[miknik5]

Then what is the point of the brain?


eudaimonia,

Mark

What is the point of a body without the inner part of the man?

If there were no inner faculties a man would be a lifeless mass of flesh

And if it were not for the visible body, the inner faculties , the actual and invisible and hidden heart and mind of a man (his spirit) would not be able to be made visible

And how his spirit is made manifest is by the body

 

[Eudaimonist]

If there were no inner faculties a man would be a lifeless mass of flesh

The inner faculties of a man are the functioning of their "flesh". Bodies are alive because of how they function, not because of something that exists in addition to the body. A lifeless body is one that has lost its function.

So, what is the point of the brain in the human body unless it is one's "inner faculty"?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[miknik5]

Oh please. All bodies have a spirit. And it is what a man does outwardly that makes manifest what is inward

A brain does not act independently from the heart and the body. And it is these hidden things that are not hidden from God that will be laid bare in the end to reveal the hidden agenda of the heart and the mind of a man

A man ith all the intelligence in the world if he acts independently of your heart you are but a lifeless machine as well

And a brain can not be made manifest unless what is hidden in that brain is made manifest by a body and it is what one does that will show the issues of the heart. Whether good or bad

Go and put a mark on the foreheads of all those who grieve for all the atrocities

That will happen. It will be an invisible mark made by the one who sees the heart and the mind of men

 

[miknik5]

what did you think Christ meant when He said out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks

One can't do anything outwardly without the faculties of a brain. But a brain is neither good or bad until it makes manifest what is inside the man on the outside before men

 

[miknik5]

The word of God is Living and active

Please look into that verse

I am really sorry. I wish it were easier for me but I away on vacation and have only the use of my phone. It is a nuisance for me to switch back and forth to provide the verses and I can't really sit myself before the hotels computer stations