LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[mmksparbud]

That's really interesting. Here is the problem. They are just guessing.

Hundreds of eye witness accounts written at the time, you call guessing???

 

[fatboys]

Hundreds of eye witness accounts written at the time, you call guessing???

Witnesses to ancient history interesting

 

[mmksparbud]

Witnesses to ancient history interesting

Ancient--0I said from the days of Columbus-prior to that there is only the written Mayan and Inca accounts and the carvings and drawings, none of which portray horses. Those manuscripts contain drawings, and drawings of carvings from temples and such some of which where destroyed by the Spaniards shortly thereafter. If you had bothered to check it out, you would have seen that.

 

[chandraclaws]

Ok I'll repost this once again; This is the first of two parts

I’m going to open with two passages and a question

Acts 2
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

If there was no apostasy then why a restitution, why would the gospel need to be preached to every nation???

My theses here is built on William Barclay’s translation of the New Testament, 2 Thess 2. In this Paul prophesies of the future apostasy.

Brothers, in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and in regard to our being gathered to him, …Let no one deceive you in any way. The Day of the Lord will not come unless there comes first The Rebellion against God, and unless there be revealed The Man of Sin, The Son of Perdition, the one who opposes himself to and exalts himself against everyone who is called God or made an object of worship so that he attempts to take his seat in the very temple of God and proclaims that he himself is God. Don't you remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? As for the present, you know the power which restrains him so that he may be revealed in his own time. For the secret of lawlessness is even now in operation. But The Man of Sin will appear only when the one who restrains him is removed from the scene. And then The Lawless One will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of his mouth and will render him ineffective by his appearance and his coming. The coming of The Lawless One is for those who are doomed. He will come according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and wonders which issue from falsehood, and with all wicked deceit. They are doomed because they did not receive the love of truth that they might be saved. For this cause God sends them a deceiving energy in order that they might believe in a lie so that all who have not believed but have consented to that principle of unrighteousness may be judged."

First question; when will this rebellion happen
Second question; what is the power which restrains
Third question; what lawlessness was in operation
Forth ; who is the one who is restraining him and when was he removed from the scene
Fifth question who consented to that principle of unrighteousness

(I noticed by the time I get to the end of this I’ve rearranged these)

I’ve broken this into several different sections just because it’s easier for me to keep my train of thought going. I’m putting a little * by each new thought to help us all with the flow.

*Section 1, the Old Testament Prophecies
We’ll start with Gen 6

"And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man…"

There are times because of wickedness and unbelief God’s spirit will pull away from mankind.

A great deal of this is wrapped up in the promises and warnings to Israel of their scattering and gathering. In Deut 4 the Lord warns Israel that if they are not obedient they will be scattered.

27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

So at some point in time they (all of Israel) will eventually be scattered and there will be false doctrines taught about God which they will accept and believe.

And then he gives them a promise

29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31 (For the Lord thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

So at some future point when they are in tribulation in ‘the latter days’ the knowledge of truth will be restored along with the covenant made to their fathers, not the covenant and law of Moses but the covenant made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They are different!

This goes back to my initial question why would a restitution need to be made if all truth is here??


*Understanding the different idioms and allegories which the Lord uses is important.

*The first is food and drink

Isa 29
And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.

Over the thousands of years since Isaiah gave this prophecy a multitude of nations have fought Israel. He speaks of a time that will be like a dream

8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite:

We can dream about eating but dreams are not real,

so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion. Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

So there will come a day when men will stagger from a lack of prophets to show the way.

Amos 8 uses a similar allegory use food and drink.

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it."

A time when the word of God would not be heard no matter where men wandered to they will not find it!

* second idiom Amos uses is in verse 9 Amos writes;
" And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day"

Noon is the middle of the day, a clear day is a day when truth is given to the world. Jesus came in the meridian of time bring truth to the world, but then the sun goes down and the earth is darkened.

You’ll find the same thing Micah 3
5 ¶Thus saith the Lord concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.
6 Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them.

The concept is that there would be a time when there would be false prophets therefore there would be no real prophets, the spirit of the Lord would ceases to strive with man.

*Amos uses third allegory to describe this time; Flood

"Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt."

This flood allegory is used two other times in the Bible

In Dan 9 he talks of the death of Jesus and the fall of the temple, so it was to take place in 70 ad.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Jesus refers to this quote from Daniel in Matt 24 when he is taking about the destruction of the temple. This isn’t a flood of water but a flood of evil and overspreading of abomination.

The next time we find this is in Rev 12-13 where it speaks of the war in heaven and Satan being cast to the earth. The woman represents the church

"Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time…. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ…..And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

*So let’s recap here, our first questions have begun to be answered.

The Lord has said he will not always strive with men, his prophets prophesied that one day there would be a day of famine, of hearing the words of the Lord.

This day is not some future event of rebellion but would start in 70 ad with the fall of the temple. Satan would be given a certain amount of time to have power over all kindreds and tongues and nations. And most importantly the Church would be taken into the wilderness for a season.

* This next little section which I’m inserting here is important in understand their intent about the timing.

The writer of Hebrews uses some timing terminology; God, who at sundry times … spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son"

With the phrase ‘in the last days’ meant right then and not some future event. (It’s the reason we know this was written shortly after Jesus died and not much later as some who try and disparage the Bible claim)

Each apostle uses some slightly different phrase but mean the same thing; "and then shall the end come", "we know that it is the last time", "in the last days scoffers" , "in the last days perilous times"

They were all referring to the fall of the Temple and the end of the temple sacrifice as Jesus said in Matt 24.

They were in ‘the last days’ of their times, the last days before Israel would be scattered and the end to "the power which restrains him" and the beginning of "overspreading of abominations". A time where Satan would be given the given power to "make war with the saints, to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." Rev 13*

*Section 2, Now we are going to look at Matt 24. Jesus tells his Apostles the temple will be destroyed and they ask three questions

Tell us,
1, when shall these things be? (the fall of the temple)
2, what shall be the sign of thy coming,
3, and of the end of the world?

These are three specific distinctly different events.

The answer to the first question are found in verses 4-20. The important elements to understand the Apostasy are;

9, Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The Gospel being preached ‘to all the world’ is an idiom which meant Roman. Roman was the world and all roads lead to it. When Peter & Paul preached in Rome they fulfilled that part of the prophecy. Peter died 5 years before the temple was destroyed and the over spreading of abomination began. The Apostles were all killed sometime before 70 ad. So that fulfills verses 9 & 14 of Jesus prophecy.

*Now we need to look at verse 11 of Jesus prophecy did it come to pass?

Paul warned the Elders of the Church with this prophecy.
Act 20
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

So the false prophets were to arise from within the church, these are those Paul spoke of who "who have not believed but have consented to that principle of unrighteousness…". They have not really understood the truth, in fact they reject the truth.

In James 4
" 1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts….

James is addressing a group of men who are arguing over Gospel questions probably much like they did at the council of Nicaea with the Arian controversy. I’m not sure he is calling them actual adulterers but that he is using the term "adulterers’ as an idiom for they are "double minded" and prideful men, ‘I’m right and your wrong!’ kind of thinking. He admonished them "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering" but because of their pride they asked a miss.

To me they were asking Lord ‘let so and so know I’m right!’ rather than ‘Lord help me understand the truth of all things’.

John confirms this happening in 1 John 2:18
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

His complainant is they are denying that Jesus is the Son of God and Peter confirms this;

And Peter in 2Peter 1-2
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

The false prophets led Israel into apostasy so that they worshipped the "daughter of a strange god" Mal 2. This is the god many of the Jews were worshipping at the time of Jesus.

Jude
"….it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and…"

Jude seems to be dealing more with some sexual sins which were creeping in, ‘we live under grace so let’s sins some more’ kind of thinking.

* Here are some examples of Paul’s fight against these false prophets

Titus 1
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses,

1Cor 1
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment…..Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Gal 1:6
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Note that it is the gospel perverted, yes they still were teaching Jesus but with a twist, which takes us back to Isa 29 . At the time that the book is delivered to the unlearned man it says

"Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:"

Isn’t this what Christianity has done for generations; taught of a god of hell fire and damnation.

You're ridiculously long mind numbing posts are unreadable, disrespectful and ill mannered. They do not help you make your case.

 

[chandraclaws]

That's right, right in the middle of the apostasy.

There is no evidence of an apostacy happening at that time.

 

[Ironhold]

You're ridiculously long mind numbing posts are unreadable and do not help you make your case.

Actually, WWA is writing for a level suitable for academia.

 

[chandraclaws]

Actually, WWA is writing for a level suitable for academia.

But not suitable for a forum. It seems to intentionally stifle interaction. It's inconsiderate at best.

 

[Ironhold]

But not suitable for a forum.

WWA's actually tried to adjust for difficulties in forum posting.

The big thing is that some challenges we get do, indeed, require in-depth academic-level responses, yet if we just link to something off-site we either get bawled out or people refuse to read it because it's off-site.

 

[withwonderingawe]

You're ridiculously long mind numbing posts are unreadable, disrespectful and ill mannered. They do not help you make your case.

I don't know why it was disrespectful, I was trying to put it all in one place so we could discuss the passages and what they meant. No one even tried to.

There is plenty of evidence for an apostasy. The fact that there was a Protestant movement at all shows many were sure the "church" had lost its way.

 

[Peter1000]

The Holy Spirit cannot testify a falsehood is true. From metallurgy to crops to animals and more, some things described in the BoM just aren't true. I would question the spirit that is testifying to you.

One thing you always have to remember about the BOM information is that today we may not have exact proof of the existence of X. But tommorrow we will. There were many kinds of very questionable things that JS translated in the BOM, that scientists & religious scholars laughed at in 1830, but today that list has continued to dwindle.

For instance:
the idea of a stone box was laughable.
the idea of these savages wrote on metal plates was laughable.
the idea that people from Jerusalem could sail to the Americas was laughable.
the idea that there even existed an empire of such grandeur was laughable.
the idea that Christian principles were taught way before Columbus was laughable.
the idea that these savages smelted gold and silver was laughable.
the idea that Jesus came to these people in the Americas was laughable.
the idea that there was wheat in the Americas before Columbus was laughable.
the idea that kind of warfare that JS talked about was laughable.
the idea that these savages had a written language was laughable.
the idea that these savages had an accurate calendar system was laughable.
the idea that these savages traded in coin was laughable. (turns out they didn't, JS was describing weights and measures which was their trading method.)
the idea that these savages were sea faring was laughable.
the idea that there was a race of people before the Maya race was laughable.
the idea that Columbus and Cortez were considered gods was laughable.

So again be careful to say "they are not true". It is that "they have not been discovered yet".

 

[BigDaddy4]

One thing you always have to remember about the BOM information is that today we may not have exact proof of the existence of X. But tommorrow we will. There were many kinds of very questionable things that JS translated in the BOM, that scientists & religious scholars laughed at in 1830, but today that list has continued to dwindle.

For instance:
the idea of a stone box was laughable.
the idea of these savages wrote on metal plates was laughable.
the idea that people from Jerusalem could sail to the Americas was laughable.
the idea that there even existed an empire of such grandeur was laughable.
the idea that Christian principles were taught way before Columbus was laughable.
the idea that these savages smelted gold and silver was laughable.
the idea that Jesus came to these people in the Americas was laughable.
the idea that there was wheat in the Americas before Columbus was laughable.
the idea that kind of warfare that JS talked about was laughable.
the idea that these savages had a written language was laughable.
the idea that these savages had an accurate calendar system was laughable.
the idea that these savages traded in coin was laughable. (turns out they didn't, JS was describing weights and measures which was their trading method.)
the idea that these savages were sea faring was laughable.
the idea that there was a race of people before the Maya race was laughable.
the idea that Columbus and Cortez were considered gods was laughable.

So again be careful to say "they are not true". It is that "they have not been discovered yet".

You can believe whatever falsehoods you want as you wait for your "discoveries". Just don't expect the Holy Spirit to confirm that large civilizations consisting of millions of people existed during that time who conveniently killed themselves off entirely and any traces of their existance vanished, nor expect the Holy Spirit to confirm that "another testament" is true or that Jesus appeared to such a civilization.

 

[mmksparbud]

The idea that "savages" couldn't read or write was dispelled after the Spaniards came back with drawings of their writings and of their architecture--I posted a site that has a long list of all those manuscripts which dispelled all those believes. That information had not been of much interest except for some academics--JS didn't know what had been discovered or he wouldn't have said some of the things he did. He did very little research-either on the Americas nor Egyptology. Had he done so, he would have done and said things better. He was counting on the ignorance of people to remain that way. In this day and age, he would never have gotten away with what he claimed. Internet, videos, phones, too much info readily available. And what had appeared at first to corroborate his views, no longer do--time and discoveries have not helped him. What new stuff that may come up---if it should align with what he says--I'll wait for the newer discoveries that will dispel what those say!!! Like, no horses, of any size, Anytime there has ever been any kind of horse, the indigenous peoples have put them to use--no matter what size they were. When the Indians did see them---they took to them like ducks to water and in no time at all---there were gauchos and Latin and Indian cowboys that could put their conquerors to shame! There are still gauchos in South America. Had they had horses, the Spaniards would have had a lot more difficult time conquering them.

 

[withwonderingawe]

You can believe whatever falsehoods you want as you wait for your "discoveries". Just don't expect the Holy Spirit to confirm that large civilizations consisting of millions of people existed during that time who conveniently killed themselves off entirely and any traces of their existance vanished, nor expect the Holy Spirit to confirm that "another testament" is true or that Jesus appeared to such a civilization.

Happens all the time;
http://webecoist.momtastic.com/2011/05/02/lost-civilizations-12-societies-that-vanished-in-mystery/

They give a list of 12 civilization that just up a disappear. One of them are the Olmec who many feel are the Jaredites of the Book of Mormon. The time they spring up and then disappear fits into the time line of the Book of Mormons. Some feel the Mayan are the Lamanites mixed in with the peoples around them. But then some believe the story takes place in the Mississippi valley with the Cahokia Mounds.

 

[dzheremi]

So again be careful to say "they are not true". It is that "they have not been discovered yet".

A lot of what you mention (the non-fanciful stuff, like people making stone boxes and the existence of an indigenous writing system in the Americas) was known before Joseph Smith, though. These things may or may not have been laughable to those in Joseph's immediate environment, but that doesn't really mean much, beyond possibly explaining Joseph's success at founding his religion at the time and place in which he founded it.

 

[withwonderingawe]

But not suitable for a forum. It seems to intentionally stifle interaction. It's inconsiderate at best.

Do you think those who post here can't think through a posting like that? Maybe they all have short term memories or something??

 

[dzheremi]

Happens all the time;
http://webecoist.momtastic.com/2011/05/02/lost-civilizations-12-societies-that-vanished-in-mystery/

They give a list of 12 civilization that just up a disappear. One of them are the Olmec who many feel are the Jaredites of the Book of Mormon. The time they spring up and then disappear fits into the time line of the Book of Mormons. Some feel the Mayan are the Lamanites mixed in with the peoples around them. But then some believe the story takes place in the Mississippi valley with the Cahokia Mounds.

Pardon me, but the Olmec did not disappear without a trace, so they are not a good counterexample. They left plenty of physical evidence of their existence, which is how we know who they were and something of what their culture was like. They are known for their stone work, their writing system, and their inventions in the long form calendar (apparently they might have had some concept of zero).

Olmec fish vessel, 12th-9th century BC

I believe that's the point of the post you were responding to: that the civilizations that the BOM claimed lived in the Americas by the millions left absolutely zero trace of their existence, whereas even older civilizations have left much evidence of their own existence. There is zero evidence for Lamanites, Jaredites, etc., but plenty for actual Mesoamerican civilizations.

 

[chandraclaws]

I don't know why it was disrespectful, I was trying to put it all in one place so we could discuss the passages and what they meant. No one even tried to.

I understand that you want to keep all the info together, but if no one is discussing your post, it could be that there is just too much to digest in one post. It just shuts down the conversation. Maybe breaking it down would invite more discussion.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Happens all the time;
http://webecoist.momtastic.com/2011/05/02/lost-civilizations-12-societies-that-vanished-in-mystery/

They give a list of 12 civilization that just up a disappear. One of them are the Olmec who many feel are the Jaredites of the Book of Mormon. The time they spring up and then disappear fits into the time line of the Book of Mormons. Some feel the Mayan are the Lamanites mixed in with the peoples around them. But then some believe the story takes place in the Mississippi valley with the Cahokia Mounds.

More "ifs", "possible's", "some believe", etc. No valid proofs presented (because there are none). And dzheremi debunked your Olmec/Jaredite theory. Face it, you have nothing that validates a large civilization existing when and where you want it to.

 

[withwonderingawe]

No, the Nephites left no welcome mat or signs because after wars the different groups would destroy monuments etc.

"Around 900 BCE the site of San Lorenzo displays evidence of systematic destruction whilst La Venta, conversely, began to flourish, ...." http://www.ancient.eu/Olmec_Civilization/

"La Venta became a much grander city than San Lorenzo, extending its power farther into outlying areas. It was undoubtedly a sacred place to many, and it is known for the many buried offerings found there. Then, in about 400 B.C.E., La Venta experienced extreme upheaval. Many of its monuments were destroyed or deliberately disfigured. Unlike the upheaval in San Lorenzo of 1200 B.C.E., La Venta never recovered." Early Civilizations in the Americas Reference Library, 2005

It's something they did,

 

[dzheremi]

Uh..according to your own quote: "Around 900 BCE the site of San Lorenzo displays evidence of systematic destruction whilst La Venta, conversely, began to flourish, ...."

Evidence. In other words, we can know that a certain civilization existed according to what material evidence is found, even in ruins (well, I would imagine usually in ruins...finding fully preserved but abandoned historical sites is the exception, not the rule).

There is no such evidence of any civilization unique to the BOM having ever existed. There are a lot of theories and presuppositions out there by LDS researchers, but theories are not evidence.