Fine tuning, a new approach

[Oncedeceived]

Right, so God is fine tuned just like the universe is.

Of course not.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Very.

welcome back.

 

[[serious]]

Of course not.

[the universe/God] has precise characteristics without which no life would exist.

For example, God's interaction with the universe is exceedingly finely tuned. If He was even a little more willing to make himself known, then the universe would not need to be fine tuned because he could miraculously maintain life without worrying about the laws of physics getting in the way. Any less, and we would have no indication of fine tuning because he would have made it appear to not need tuning. This is just one way that God is fine tuned to create fine tuned universes.

 

[KCfromNC]

Science uses the speed of light, gravitational constant, and planck's constant to name a few that science uses all the time.

That's nice. Now are you going to address the problem with your sources disagreeing with each other, or are you just going to continue to dodge it with irrelevant science factoids?

 

[[serious]]

Science uses the speed of light, gravitational constant, and planck's constant to name a few that science uses all the time.

Since the first post got no response, let me try again a little sillier:

The speed of light, gravitational constant, and the reduced planck's constant can all be equal to 1 with no ill effects.

 

[lesliedellow]

Since the first post got no response, let me try again a little sillier:

The speed of light, gravitational constant, and the reduced planck's constant can all be equal to 1 with no ill effects.

Only if you get G=1 by the simple expedient of changing the units. If its physical strength had been different in the early universe, the effect would have been catastrophic.

 

[Oncedeceived]

That's nice. Now are you going to address the problem with your sources disagreeing with each other, or are you just going to continue to dodge it with irrelevant science factoids?

They don't that is the point. The two numbers you are discussing are for two different things.

 

[KCfromNC]

They don't that is the point. The two numbers you are discussing are for two different things.

What are they, specifically? And why did you bring them up as answers to one specific question if they're about two totally different things?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Since the first post got no response, let me try again a little sillier:

The speed of light, gravitational constant, and the reduced planck's constant can all be equal to 1 with no ill effects.

You are talking about the universe and such a difference is so minute it is silly to even bring it up.

 

[Oncedeceived]

What are they, specifically? And why did you bring them up as answers to one specific question if they're about two totally different things?

I am not going to educate you, you said you understood the issue and you didn't even realize they were talking about two different things!

 

[lesliedellow]

I wished cognisance could be taken of the fact that it is not only theistic scientists who talk about fine tuning. Atheist scientists, naturally, prefer to account for it in ways which do not involve a deity - such as a multiverse. But the fact itself is not in dispute.

 

[Oncedeceived]

[the universe/God] has precise characteristics without which no life would exist.

For example, God's interaction with the universe is exceedingly finely tuned. If He was even a little more willing to make himself known, then the universe would not need to be fine tuned because he could miraculously maintain life without worrying about the laws of physics getting in the way. Any less, and we would have no indication of fine tuning because he would have made it appear to not need tuning. This is just one way that God is fine tuned to create fine tuned universes.

You are supporting my argument without even knowing it.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I wished cognisance could be taken of the fact that it is not only theistic scientists who talk about fine tuning. Atheist scientists, naturally, prefer to account for it in ways which do not involve a deity - such as a multiverse. But the fact itself is not in dispute.

I am totally amazed at people who claim to be all about science but when science supports the Universe might be designed they dismiss all the scientific evidence that even atheist scientists accept. They continue with this even after being told that the atheist scientists don't believe an Intelligent Being is the source, while still accepting the fine tuning of the universe.

 

[[serious]]

You are supporting my argument without even knowing it.

OK! so what fine tuned God?

 

[Oncedeceived]

OK! so what fine tuned God?

God doesn't need to be fine tuned.

 

[[serious]]

God doesn't need to be fine tuned.

Then the universe doesn't need to be fine tuned

 

[lesliedellow]

Except there is pretty general agreement that it is. In one of his books, the physicist Paul Davies has a cartoon drawing of God twiddling a set of knobs, adjusting the values of the fundamental constants, until they are "just right" for chemistry to be possible, and "just right" here means an extremely narrow range of possible values.

Davies is not a theist, but he is saying that it is "As if....." He, along with many other physicists, think there is something in need of explanation, even if they do not necessarily feel personally inclined towards a theistic explanation.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Then the universe doesn't need to be fine tuned

It does if you want to be here discussing it.

 

[[serious]]

It does if you want to be here discussing it.

Oh, ok:

God doesn't need to be fine tuned.

He does if you want to be here discussing it.

 

[KCfromNC]

I am not going to educate you, you said you understood the issue and you didn't even realize they were talking about two different things!

Hey, you're the one who posted two wildly different numbers to answer one of my questions. Not my fault you can't find a consistent answer to support your guesses.