What if a Police Officer is Wrong...

[Archivist]

I believe that as Christians we should be more concerned about how we represent Christ to the world, and less concerned about our rights. That is not the same thing as being NOT concerned about our rights, but LESS concerned.

Is the incident of the ladies being asked to cover up, when they by law didn't have to, the only example you wish to present or discuss in this thread? Because we've already established, they were within their rights. I *might* have handled it differently in their situation, but they did well. There doesn't seem to be any disagreement there.

Or is your concern the "slippery slope" that might result if we just automatically do what a police officer tells us to do, regardless of our rights?

I picked that incident becasue I knew that was a situation where the ladies would have stood up for their rights even if they had faced arrest. A google search will find many examples. Another one? Journalist Philip Datz was ordered to stop filming a crime scene by Suffolk County Police Sergeant Michael Milton, something that the journalist had every right to do. When Datz, whose press credentials were clearly visible, refused to stop, Milton placed him under arrest. His only reasoning for giving the order: "because I said so." Datz ended up winning a $200,000 settlement for Sergeant Milton's unlawful action. BTW, the sergeant paid nothing for his actions; the settlement was paid by the taxpayers.

Something similiar recently happened in Detroit where news photographer Mandi Wright was capturing video of the police on her iPhone. An officer then ordered her to “turn it off.” When she refused her phone was taken and she was held under arrest for six hours. I wonder how much the actions of that police officer are going to cost the City of Detroit?

The fact is that most cops are good people who do not do things like this. Some, like the NYC cops who tried to stop the topless sunbathers or Sergeant Milton or this officer in Detroit forget that 1) they work for the people and 2) there are limits on their authority and they cannot exceed those limits.

Again, we are not talking about lawful orders given by police. Those need to be followed. We are talking about situations were cops exceed their authority and issue unlawful commands.

 

[Kersh]

Again, we need to agree to disagree.

Fair enough.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Well, you know, if a cop orders me to do something against the Bible, I would definitely not do it, even if it means going to jail. Let it be written into the law of the land, and I still wouldn't do it. It's not about my rights. It's about God superseding earthly law. So while I do see your point, we may be applying it different ways.

 

[Archivist]

Well, you know, if a cop orders me to do something against the Bible, I would definitely not do it, even if it means going to jail. Let it be written into the law of the land, and I still wouldn't do it. It's not about my rights. It's about God superseding earthly law. So while I do see your point, we may be applying it different ways.

I agree.

 

[rjs330]

The bible is our ultimate authority in these situations. What does the bible say? What would God want us to do?
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. Romans 13:1-5

Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, Titus 3:1

Note that the words used are "be subject" and "be submissive". This is where is starts. If a police officer tells you to do something as a christian we should do it. Being submissive to their authority. The reasons for this are obvious as it keeps us out of trouble. Now the bible doesn't say we shouldn't bring abuses of power or wrongdoing by officers to the correct authorities. If an officer orders you to do something and you don't really have to do it because he is wrong, just do what he says and then let his superiors know and let them handle it from there. If you are arrested or cited for something, just submit and take it to court. This is biblical.

As a citizen of the US, we have options other countries don't have because of Benjamin Franklin and the founders. We have a right just like everyone else to use the law as written. Remember Paul, he used the law in his favor when he reminded his accusers he was a Roman and subject to Roman law. So there is nothing wrong with using the system that was given us, but we need to be submissive in the process.

 

[Archivist]

The bible is our ultimate authority in these situations. What does the bible say? What would God want us to do?
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. Romans 13:1-5

Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, Titus 3:1

Note that the words used are "be subject" and "be submissive". This is where is starts. If a police officer tells you to do something as a christian we should do it. Being submissive to their authority. The reasons for this are obvious as it keeps us out of trouble. Now the bible doesn't say we shouldn't bring abuses of power or wrongdoing by officers to the correct authorities. If an officer orders you to do something and you don't really have to do it because he is wrong, just do what he says and then let his superiors know and let them handle it from there. If you are arrested or cited for something, just submit and take it to court. This is biblical.

As a citizen of the US, we have options other countries don't have because of Benjamin Franklin and the founders. We have a right just like everyone else to use the law as written. Remember Paul, he used the law in his favor when he reminded his accusers he was a Roman and subject to Roman law. So there is nothing wrong with using the system that was given us, but we need to be submissive in the process.

Alright, but is a police officer a "governing authority?" I don't think so. Presidents, governors, senators, congressmen, judges are all governing authorities. They make laws. A police officer is a civil servant who enforces the law. A police officer does not make the law and they cannot go beyond their authority.

 

[rjs330]

Alright, but is a police officer a "governing authority?" I don't think so. Presidents, governors, senators, congressmen, judges are all governing authorities. They make laws. A police officer is a civil servant who enforces the law. A police officer does not make the law and they cannot go beyond their authority.

No they don't make law and should not go beyond their authority. But sometimes as with ALL people in ALL positions they make mistakes. They are the enforcing arm of the governing authorities and are part of the justice system just like judges etc. So as believers we are to obey and respect them. Take a look at the apostles. They never fought the soldiers who came to take them away. They submitted. They presented their cases before the proper authority and in the proper venue. We are blessed in America to have a system that can and does deal with police mistakes or misconduct. You can take your grievances to the proper authority.

Scripture is pretty clear. Don't fight and submit. Remember As much as it is up to us we are to live peacably with all men. That would include officers who are in error. We do not just have the words of scripture that tell us to submit, but also the examples of the writers themselves. They lived what they preached.

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[Archivist]

No they don't make law and should not go beyond their authority. But sometimes as with ALL people in ALL positions they make mistakes. They are the enforcing arm of the governing authorities and are part of the justice system just like judges etc. So as believers we are to obey and respect them. Take a look at the apostles. They never fought the soldiers who came to take them away. They submitted. They presented their cases before the proper authority and in the proper venue. We are blessed in America to have a system that can and does deal with police mistakes or misconduct. You can take your grievances to the proper authority.

Scripture is pretty clear. Don't fight and submit. Remember As much as it is up to us we are to live peacably with all men. That would include officers who are in error. We do not just have the words of scripture that tell us to submit, but also the examples of the writers themselves. They lived what they preached.

Don't believe that I ever said that we shouldn't respect the police, only that we should stand up to the police when the officer is in the wrong. If that means facing arrest, as happened to the journalists I referenced and almost happened to the topless women in NY, so be it.

Further, at least two of the examples I provided were not mistakes on the part of the police officer. Telling a reporter to stop filming "because I said so" isn't a mistake, it is an illegal command. If we are going to keep our rights we need to stand up for them.

Now, if the officer is in the right you certainly should respect his/her authority and do what he/she says.

And as I noted elsewhere in this thread, i would apply this not only to illegal commands but to immoral commands. If I lived in Nazi Germany and was hiding Jews, I would refuse any order from the police to turn them over even though technically that would be a legal order.

 

[SepiaAndDust]

Well, you know, if a cop orders me to do something against the Bible, I would definitely not do it, even if it means going to jail. Let it be written into the law of the land, and I still wouldn't do it. It's not about my rights. It's about God superseding earthly law. So while I do see your point, we may be applying it different ways.

Everybody can't just say Well, that law goes against my personal beliefs, so I don't have to comply. That's not how the law works.

 

[rjs330]

Don't believe that I ever said that we shouldn't respect the police, only that we should stand up to the police when the officer is in the wrong. If that means facing arrest, as happened to the journalists I referenced and almost happened to the topless women in NY, so be it.

Further, at least two of the examples I provided were not mistakes on the part of the police officer. Telling a reporter to stop filming "because I said so" isn't a mistake, it is an illegal command. If we are going to keep our rights we need to stand up for them.

Now, if the officer is in the right you certainly should respect his/her authority and do what he/she says.

And as I noted elsewhere in this thread, i would apply this not only to illegal commands but to immoral commands. If I lived in Nazi Germany and was hiding Jews, I would refuse any order from the police to turn them over even though technically that would be a legal order.

Well I guess I just misinterpreted you stand up to them comment. It kind of sounded like you were advocating refusing to do what they said if you believed they were wrong. If that's not what you were saying then I apologize for my error.

And I do agree if they are commanding you to do something that violates Gods law then we are not wrong to disobey. As Paul said we obey God not man.



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[rjs330]

Everybody can't just say Well, that law goes against my personal beliefs, so I don't have to comply. That's not how the law works.

Actually it is biblical and not sinful to not obey a law that orders you to violate scripture. That being said we also may suffer consequences from man for doing so. God won't judge us for it and in fact will reward us for it. But we may suffer at man's hands for it.

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[W2L]

How?

Matthew 5:41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles.

 

[W2L]

If anyone forces you to put your shirt on, put on your coat as well.

 

[Archivist]

Well I guess I just misinterpreted you stand up to them comment. It kind of sounded like you were advocating refusing to do what they said if you believed they were wrong. If that's not what you were saying then I apologize for my error.

And I do agree if they are commanding you to do something that violates Gods law then we are not wrong to disobey. As Paul said we obey God not man.

Please reread what I wrote. If an officer gives you an illegal command you are not required to obey.

A lawful command, on the other hand, you should obey unless it is immoral (like turning over Jews to the Nazis).

 

[RDKirk]

Is it not a sin to comply with a government that is oppressing so many people around the world?

Maybe not. A pastor has recently said, "Satan moves freely under the veil of chaos." I can look at the Church growing in its first three centuries under the oppression of the Roman Empire, or the Church growing in Communist China and fascist North Korea...all notable as being regimes of extreme order. Brutality plus order...yet the Church grows.

Compare that with the ability of the Church to grow in someplace like South Sudan where there is no order, only chaos. It appears to me that order is a favorable environment for the Holy Spirit even when it is oppressive, while chaos is a favorable environment for Satan.

This doesn't mean that I personally desire to live under oppression, but it does suggest to me why Peter and Paul would urge Christians to be in general support of order even when administered by an evil king.

 

[Kersh]

Everybody can't just say Well, that law goes against my personal beliefs, so I don't have to comply. That's not how the law works.

So, not to Godwin the thread, but if the law said you have to turn in any Jews you might know of, so that they can be exterminated, should you obey or not?

 

[W2L]

So, not to Godwin the thread, but if the law said you have to turn in any Jews you might know of, so that they can be exterminated, should you obey or not?

There is a big difference in complying with an order to put your shirt on, and turning someone over to be killed.

 

[W2L]

Ultimately its about the blessings of the cross. WE would want to comply with an order to do something that violates our rites, especially something as small as putting your shirt on, because to do so avoids conflict and at the same time exercises faith in the Lord, according to what we are taught. ITs about the blessings that are found by enduring our own cross. I'm not sure we would want to hand someone over to a death squad though, and I wouldn't do that. Its about enduring hardship which is the way of the cross

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Everybody can't just say Well, that law goes against my personal beliefs, so I don't have to comply. That's not how the law works.

What's more important, God's law or secular law? If they make a law that says we can't pray, for example, wouldn't you defy it? Just like Daniel did?

I know how the law works. No need to talk down to me like that.

 

[rjs330]

Please reread what I wrote. If an officer gives you an illegal command you are not required to obey.

A lawful command, on the other hand, you should obey unless it is immoral (like turning over Jews to the Nazis).

I believe scripturally you are required to obey. The verses I quoted did not offer any caveats to submitting to authority. It doesn't say submit to,authority unless,it's an illegal order. As a Christian we are to obey those whom God has allowed to be in charge over us. If an officer orders you to stop filming on your camera you should stop. Its an illegal order, but as a Christian we should stop. As an American we have rights and so I don't think it would be wrong to report the incident to that officers superiors. And I also have no,issue with reminding the officer himself that you have a right to record. But if he insists then stop. Unless you can show me in the bible where it says otherwise I think the word of God supports me on this.

UNLESS the order or law goes against Gods orders or laws. So your example of Nazis and Jews is a good one. Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor as ourselves as the 2nd greatest command. So protecting the Jews in violation of Nazi law would be fine according to scripture.

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