What if a Police Officer is Wrong...

[LovebirdsFlying]

Instead of fighting a mugger, instead say "here friend! take it as a gift. May the Lord be with you"

Well, it worked for the Bishop of Digne in Les Miserables.

 

[Kersh]

Won't happen in this lifetime. We are all sinners, every one if us.

Should that keep us from striving to be like Jesus?

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[Archivist]

The Law of Christ is what matters to Christians. Its better to give than receive, and its a blessing to be defrauded as well. We are talking about walking in the spirit which is above all the most holy and blessed gift we have.

Why then talk about whether we should obey a Cop who wants us to cover up our boobs? Have we strayed so far from the teaching of the spirit?

Again, stay on point. This thread is about obeying illegal commands from police officers, not about topless women.

 

[Archivist]

Should that keep us from striving to be like Jesus?

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Please stay on point.

 

[Kersh]

Please stay on point.

I was directly responding to your comment.

And, really, it is on point. Jesus teaches that we are to be gentle and humble, sometimes even to the point of having our "rights" trod on.

Isn't having our "rights" trod on, or fighting for them, (in the context of poluce overstepping) essentially what this thread is about?

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[Archivist]

I was directly responding to your comment.

Yes, but I requested after that that we get the thread back on point.

And, really, it is on point. Jesus teaches that we are to be gentle and humble, sometimes even to the point of having our "rights" trod on. Isn't having our "rights" trod on, or fighting for them, (in the context of poluce overstepping) essentially what this thread is about?

So we only have the rights police say we have, even if the officer is wrong? If a police officer orders two women to stop kissing in public because he just doesn't like that behavior while ignoring men and women who are kissing they should just follow orders? What if he issues a similar command to a mixed-race couple? We just give in, the cop is always right.

 

[Kersh]

Yes, but I requested after that that we get the thread back on point.



So we only have the rights police say we have, even if the officer is wrong? If a police officer orders two women to stop kissing in public because he just doesn't like that behavior while ignoring men and women who are kissing they should just follow orders? What if he issues a similar command to a mixed-race couple? We just give in, the cop is always right.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I am saying that, for Christians, our obligation to live in holiness trumps our "rights". As Christians, we are called to be radically different from the world, which means in part that we might overlook things that we have the "right" to contest. Sometimes, there is a time to speak up for what is right, but I think that what you describe are times for Christians to live in gentle and humble submission. It doesn't mean the cop is right; it means that we trust God to be the judge.

You'd be amazed at how often this approach actually gets people to back off and even change themselves. For example, we have a racist cop who started working in our town. At one point, the second or third time that he overstepped his bounds with my children, I talked to him very kindly and gently, and I've had no further issues with him since. My temptation as a parent was to complain to the chief about this bigoted cop harassing my kids because of the color of their skin, but I suspect that would only have exacerbated the situation. Biblical meekness is not making a doormat of yourself; it's treating other people the way you want to be treated (Ie., modeling), even when they're not treating you the way you want to be treated. I'm not perfect at it by any stretch of the imagination, but ironically, I've found that this way of life is more effective at confronting oppression than the world's MO.

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[W2L]

We just give in, the cop is always right.

No, Christ is always right. The way of the Cross is where our blessing are found.

 

[W2L]

I was captured by this scripture years ago. It gave me hope in a difficult situation. I think that for the first time in my life I may understand its meaning. This is not about paul bragging on himself and his power given to him as an apostle, and its not teaching us to be apostles either. IT is however written for us all, and it showns us the way of the spirit. This is what spirituality looks like. The power of Christ isn't just the gifts that an apostle had, but ultimately its the greatest things of all. That power is love, joy, perseverance, and the fruit of the spirit. This is how we abide in Christ.

2 Corinthians 12:9-10New International Version (NIV)

9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

 

[Archivist]

No, Christ is always right. The way of the Cross is where our blessing are found.

And exactly what does this have to do with the topic at hand?

 

[Archivist]

I was captured by this scripture years ago. It gave me hope in a difficult situation. I think that for the first time in my life I may understand its meaning. This is not about paul bragging on himself and his power given to him as an apostle, and its not teaching us to be apostles either. IT is however written for us all, and it showns us the way of the spirit. This is what spirituality looks like. The power of Christ isn't just the gifts that an apostle had, but ultimately its the greatest things of all. That power is love, joy, perseverance, and the fruit of the spirit. This is how we abide in Christ.

2 Corinthians 12:9-10New International Version (NIV)

9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

And exactly what does this have to do with obeying unlawful commands from police? Please stay on point.

 

[W2L]

And exactly what does this have to do with obeying unlawful commands from police? Please stay on point.

So in other words you are asking me what Christ has to do with our decision making? This is your question, should we obey unlawful commands given by the police? Christ is the answer

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I believe that as Christians we should be more concerned about how we represent Christ to the world, and less concerned about our rights. That is not the same thing as being NOT concerned about our rights, but LESS concerned.

Is the incident of the ladies being asked to cover up, when they by law didn't have to, the only example you wish to present or discuss in this thread? Because we've already established, they were within their rights. I *might* have handled it differently in their situation, but they did well. There doesn't seem to be any disagreement there.

Or is your concern the "slippery slope" that might result if we just automatically do what a police officer tells us to do, regardless of our rights?

 

[W2L]

Or is your concern the "slippery slope" that might result if we just automatically do what a police officer tells us to do, regardless of our rights?

Lets examine scripture an see if we can find an answer.


1 Corinthians 6:7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated?



1 Peter 2:21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

22
“He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth.”[e]

23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I like the Scripture reference, of course, but I feel compelled to point out that this is referring to relationships among Christians. I don't know that it pertains to other worldly situations. Some people take that verse to mean we should never sue at all. I don't believe it means that. We just shouldn't sue our Christian brothers and sisters, is the way I take it.

 

[W2L]

I like the Scripture reference, of course, but I feel compelled to point out that this is referring to relationships among Christians. I don't know that it pertains to other worldly situations. Some people take that verse to mean we should never sue at all. I don't believe it means that. We just shouldn't sue our Christian brothers and sisters, is the way I take it.

It does mean we shouldn't sue. THe context here, that is easy to miss, is not that we are talking about believers, but instead that we follow the example of Christ, and also that we commit ourselves to God who judges righteously. If we take things to the human courts then we are not allowing for Gods judgment, and that's why paul said we are already defeated. Hes basically saying we already lost our case, even if we win it. We will not reap Gods glorious blessing given through the spirit. Those who follow the spirit set their minds on things of the spirit. Those of the flesh think of the flesh. We also follow the Lords example. Look, he was totally innocent yet he did not sue, or appeal to the court. He simply endured it because he knew that it was Gods will and he knew God would be the judge. Paul did appeal to Rome but that was only so he could fulfill his mission to preach in Rome. He wasn't trying to win a court decision at all. HE was a man who was delivered by God in many trials and tribulations.

I myself want to receive Gods blessing instead of a court ruling. IT seems far more glorious and far more edifying for my soul. THis is sowing to the spirit. This is what I need.

 

[Archivist]

Please don't put words in my mouth. I am saying that, for Christians, our obligation to live in holiness trumps our "rights". As Christians, we are called to be radically different from the world, which means in part that we might overlook things that we have the "right" to contest. Sometimes, there is a time to speak up for what is right, but I think that what you describe are times for Christians to live in gentle and humble submission. It doesn't mean the cop is right; it means that we trust God to be the judge.

No, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I'm trying to ascertain your point. As I said before, we just need to agree to disagree.

You'd be amazed at how often this approach actually gets people to back off and even change themselves. For example, we have a racist cop who started working in our town. At one point, the second or third time that he overstepped his bounds with my children, I talked to him very kindly and gently, and I've had no further issues with him since. My temptation as a parent was to complain to the chief about this bigoted cop harassing my kids because of the color of their skin, but I suspect that would only have exacerbated the situation. Biblical meekness is not making a doormat of yourself; it's treating other people the way you want to be treated (Ie., modeling), even when they're not treating you the way you want to be treated. I'm not perfect at it by any stretch of the imagination, but ironically, I've found that this way of life is more effective at confronting oppression than the world's MO.

Again, we need to agree to disagree.

 

[Archivist]

So in other words you are asking me what Christ has to do with our decision making? This is your question, should we obey unlawful commands given by the police? Christ is the answer

How?

 

[Archivist]

Lets examine scripture an see if we can find an answer.


1 Corinthians 6:7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated?



1 Peter 2:21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

22
“He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth.”[e]

23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

None of which has anything to do with obeying unlawful commands from police.

 

[Armoured]

Well, it worked for the Bishop of Digne in Les Miserables.

But then you have to shave Anne Hathway's head.