East vs. west / knowledge & experience / beliefs & practices

[Shempster]

I just finally figured out that this major shift in my world that happened is akin to switching from a western world view to an Eastern one. Thing is, its been 2 years and I just learned that this mindset had a name. Not only that but it goes all the way back to pentecost.
The change did NOT come from reading books or sitting under some teacher. IT was real though and I am fascinated by the whole concept of eastern thought vs. western.
I do know that the gnostics may have had some far out ideas about the origins of spiritual entities. That doesnt matter to me because you cannot prove or disprove any of that. Its more about the real-ness of the spiritual experience over knowledge of practices and beliefs. I kind of feel like beliefs and practices don't really lead to the real-ness of eternal life.

Can anyone "enlighten" me (pun intended) on the subject or your position on it?

 

[KnowtheSilence]

Sounds like you're talking about mysticism. Long history of that in Christianity, in both the eastern and western traditions.

 

[Shempster]

Sounds like you're talking about mysticism. Long history of that in Christianity, in both the eastern and western traditions.

Yes I am. But only from the definition first. That actual word always meant "new age movement" to me because that's what the institutional church told me.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

I do know that the gnostics may have had some far out ideas about the origins of spiritual entities. That doesnt matter to me because you cannot prove or disprove any of that. Its more about the real-ness of the spiritual experience over knowledge of practices and beliefs. I kind of feel like beliefs and practices don't really lead to the real-ness of eternal life.

Romans 10:9
because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I'll tell you what... most false religions come to being because of experiences and feelings. It is the truth that matters most of all, and you become one with the truth through belief first, then practice, and finally the salvation the truth brings. Granted, some Christians come to faith via experience--the Apostle Paul was one of them--but you can't trust every experience. My point is that you must put truth over experience, and Christians get their truth from God and His word.

 

[Shempster]

Well I did mean that beliefs and practices ALONE are not very fulfilling. It is of course, a starting point. I sat under all of the modern and years-passed teachers of modern orthodox Christianity for a long time and it was a decent religious system but it did nothing to control the flesh and left me feeling like something was always missing.

 

[TreasureHunter12]

Its more about the real-ness of the spiritual experience over knowledge of practices and beliefs. I kind of feel like beliefs and practices don't really lead to the real-ness of eternal life.

Can anyone "enlighten" me (pun intended) on the subject or your position on it?

Right, spiritual growth happens through direct experience in the body. It's something you feel your way through. Beliefs I think of happening more in the head with a jumbled mess of concepts and ideas.

 

[Paradoxum]

What sort of 'eastern' beliefs do you like?

 

[Shempster]

What sort of 'eastern' beliefs do you like?

I have absolutely no idea. I have never studied any of them. All I understand is that the Christian "mystic" ideology sounds exactly like the way I have felt my entire life.
Yes, I am aware of the new age movement tenets. Those things have to do with manipulating the world to achieve more power and wealth for ones self. You know Jesus ain't about that, silly.

 

[Audacious]

All I know is this:
"Western/allopathic" medicine is generally effective, safe, and proven.
"Eastern/traditional/alternative" medicine is generally not real medicine; it's like pointing at your dog and saying "that's my alternative cat", to steal a quote that I can't find any reliable attribution for.

Edit: this is not because the West is inherently superior or something, but because for some reason the system of modern medicine and empirical science were developed here in a lot of ways, though I'm sure Eastern practices and philosophy helped in its development plenty as well.

The West also has developed some "alternative" medicinal practices that have been proven to be harmful and ineffective (chiropracty, anyone?), so the Eastern part of the world sure isn't alone in its nonsensical quackery.

Also, most of the East with access to modern medicine uses it, and there have been plenty of contributions to medicine and science from Eastern parts of the world.

 

[Shempster]

All I know is this:
"Western/allopathic" medicine is generally effective, safe, and proven.
"Eastern/traditional/alternative" medicine is generally not real medicine; it's like pointing at your dog and saying "that's my alternative cat", to steal a quote that I can't find any reliable attribution for.

Edit: this is not because the West is inherently superior or something, but because for some reason the system of modern medicine and empirical science were developed here in a lot of ways, though I'm sure Eastern practices and philosophy helped in its development plenty as well.

The West also has developed some "alternative" medicinal practices that have been proven to be harmful and ineffective (chiropracty, anyone?), so the Eastern part of the world sure isn't alone in its nonsensical quackery.

Also, most of the East with access to modern medicine uses it, and there have been plenty of contributions to medicine and science from Eastern parts of the world.

Thats not really on topic, but an interesting note. I believe the Eastern approach to medicine is to eat natural substances to promote a healthy body which fights off all disease (in varying degrees) but western medicine treats symptoms.

 

[Shempster]

My suspicions arise from my recent studies of History and the massive effect Constantine had on the Christian religion.
Correct me if Im wrong, but he wanted to make Christianity a one world religion with him as the leader along with political leadership. He was upset at how there was so much disagreement among the followers. He set up a tenet of beliefs and a system of practice.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I believe the Eastern approach to medicine is to eat natural substances to promote a healthy body which fights off all disease (in varying degrees) but western medicine treats symptoms.

That's a little unfair - Western medicine advocates a healthy, varied, natural diet, and treats causes when it can (nothing wrong with treating symptoms too if it doesn't do harm). Eastern medicine has a history of attending to the mind (how the patient feels) that modern Western medicine has been slow to pick up on; ironically, the benefits of the placebo effect, that alternative and complementary medicine relies on so much, are causing ethical dilemmas for mainstream medicine...

 

[Shempster]

That's a little unfair - Western medicine advocates a healthy, varied, natural diet, and treats causes when it can (nothing wrong with treating symptoms too if it doesn't do harm). Eastern medicine has a history of attending to the mind (how the patient feels) that modern Western medicine has been slow to pick up on; ironically, the benefits of the placebo effect, that alternative and complementary medicine relies on so much, are causing ethical dilemmas for mainstream medicine...

This came from a doctor from China i spent a good while with during a summer.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

This came from a doctor from China i spent a good while with during a summer.

My comments were based on the UK Health Service doctors, nutritionists, and medical advisors; other Western countries may be slightly different.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

I just finally figured out that this major shift in my world that happened is akin to switching from a western world view to an Eastern one. Thing is, its been 2 years and I just learned that this mindset had a name. Not only that but it goes all the way back to pentecost.
The change did NOT come from reading books or sitting under some teacher. IT was real though and I am fascinated by the whole concept of eastern thought vs. western.
I do know that the gnostics may have had some far out ideas about the origins of spiritual entities. That doesnt matter to me because you cannot prove or disprove any of that. Its more about the real-ness of the spiritual experience over knowledge of practices and beliefs. I kind of feel like beliefs and practices don't really lead to the real-ness of eternal life.

Can anyone "enlighten" me (pun intended) on the subject or your position on it?

By "Eastern mindset", do you mean the general worldview held by Eastern organized religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, etc) or do you mean the general worldview held by Eastern mystics?

I believe the Eastern approach to medicine is to eat natural substances to promote a healthy body which fights off all disease (in varying degrees) but western medicine treats symptoms.

The Eastern approach to medicine (and many other things) is essentially "mind over matter". Many Eastern mystics (from Hinduism to Buddhism to Taoism) have an implicit belief that the Mind is more powerful than the Body/Nature. There is a subtle difference to Western religions which say that God (the Perfect Omniscient Mind) is more powerful than the Body/Nature. But in Western religions, "God" is an external being. So Western religions pray to God (an external being) while Eastern religions meditate on God/Brahma/Tao/Nothingness by looking within (an internal force). There is no supplication in Eastern mysticism because there is a persistent theme that you can achieve great things if you put your mind to it. Western religions say that you can achieve great things with God's help.


But I might be biased towards certain branches of Eastern mysticism, mostly of the Indian subcontinent. There were many Indian gurus who brought Eastern ideas to the West in the early and mid-20th century. This is part of the reason that yoga is so popular today in the West (although it has largely morphed from a Hindu spiritual practice to a purely physical exercise).

 

[Shempster]

I guess I was not being clear. I am not talking about Eastern non-Christian doctrines here.
What I am referring to is hard to define or explain but I believe it is what Paul was talking about when he mentioned the simplicity of the gospel.
It is certainly not simple today. The first problem is that the modern version is belief-based. But that simply cannot be the proper understanding as the church is fragmented thousands of ways as far as beliefs go. So in a way it matters not what you believe, because regardless....what is truth is truth no matter what. The problem is that the bible seems designed to allow for unlimited variations. Be honest...do you believe everything you did 20 years ago?
So... belief would seem more like a starting point. Belief in the Father and the son and the reality that we can actually have Christ in us. But belief alone doesn't actually DO anything for us. It is merely a catalyst that propels us to the next level.
And the next level is not a set of rules and practices...that is what the church gives us. We get just enough to prick our conscience and stimulate guilt. Then we NEED the church to rush to the alter to cry and feel more guilty and hope that maybe this time we will get our big breakthrough. Yet Monday brings reality around the loop again.Nothings changed.

I honestly know the gospel message and the power of God goes way beyond that. When you get the new nature and you needed no willpower to obtain it then you get it. That's the only way it works.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... belief alone doesn't actually DO anything for us. It is merely a catalyst that propels us to the next level.
And the next level is not a set of rules and practices...that is what the church gives us. We get just enough to prick our conscience and stimulate guilt. Then we NEED the church to rush to the alter to cry and feel more guilty and hope that maybe this time we will get our big breakthrough. Yet Monday brings reality around the loop again.Nothings changed...

You poor things, that sounds so sad...

 

[Paradoxum]

I have absolutely no idea. I have never studied any of them. All I understand is that the Christian "mystic" ideology sounds exactly like the way I have felt my entire life.
Yes, I am aware of the new age movement tenets. Those things have to do with manipulating the world to achieve more power and wealth for ones self. You know Jesus ain't about that, silly.

So, you base your beliefs on how you feel?

Would you agree that personal belief doesn't definite truth?

 

[Shempster]

So, you base your beliefs on how you feel?



Would you agree that personal belief doesn't definite truth?

Based on feelings? No.
I am rather saying that beliefs don't really DO anything for you. They might you feel happy or sad but basing anything on feelings is probably a dead end road. Its more about walking in the Spirit...not looking to a set of beliefs or rules but the inner guidance of the Spirit.

Do beliefs define truth?
Not at all.
Once again...what one believes may not be true. So therefore, you have to even take your own beliefs with a grain of salt. Do you believe exactly like you did 10 years ago? So which belief was better or truer? The one you had then or the one you have now?

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

I guess I was not being clear. I am not talking about Eastern non-Christian doctrines here.
What I am referring to is hard to define or explain but I believe it is what Paul was talking about when he mentioned the simplicity of the gospel.
It is certainly not simple today. The first problem is that the modern version is belief-based. But that simply cannot be the proper understanding as the church is fragmented thousands of ways as far as beliefs go. So in a way it matters not what you believe, because regardless....what is truth is truth no matter what. The problem is that the bible seems designed to allow for unlimited variations. Be honest...do you believe everything you did 20 years ago?
So... belief would seem more like a starting point. Belief in the Father and the son and the reality that we can actually have Christ in us. But belief alone doesn't actually DO anything for us. It is merely a catalyst that propels us to the next level.
And the next level is not a set of rules and practices...that is what the church gives us. We get just enough to prick our conscience and stimulate guilt. Then we NEED the church to rush to the alter to cry and feel more guilty and hope that maybe this time we will get our big breakthrough. Yet Monday brings reality around the loop again.Nothings changed.

I honestly know the gospel message and the power of God goes way beyond that. When you get the new nature and you needed no willpower to obtain it then you get it. That's the only way it works.

I no longer have any idea what this thread is about...