From faith to fact.

[Loudmouth]

Inspired by God.

So claims a person.

How long do you want to go in circles about this?

When you stop circling and provide evidence that God wrote anything.

 

[amariselle]

So claims a person.

When you stop circling and provide evidence that God wrote anything.

God has provided the evidence.

 

[amariselle]

Well, aren't we all?

In what way? I am speaking here of the Bible. (Obviously)

 

[tallbouy]

God has provided the evidence.

You are stuck in a loop.

 

[amariselle]

You are stuck in a loop.

I guess we all are.

I say the Bible is the word of God, you say it isn't.

We ALL believe something.

 

[Loudmouth]

God has provided the evidence.

Where?

 

[TLK Valentine]

In what way? I am speaking here of the Bible. (Obviously)

I'm speaking of being inspired... perhaps if you were to define it, we'd make more progress.

 

[Loudmouth]

I guess we all are.

I say the Bible is the word of God, you say it isn't.

You say the Bible is the word of God, and yet can't provide any evidence that this is the case. That is where we are stuck.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

You don't need to "give up" your "critical faculties" to come to God.

That is a false presumption often made of Christians. God wants us to use the minds He gave us. He doesn't desire mindless followers who never think, never question and never seek discernment.

Well, Reality dictates my beliefs. Knowing what I know about the Universe around me prevents me from accepting the Bible (or Qur'an, Torah, Bhagavad Gita, Vedas, etc.) because none of it comports with reality, it's literally a Non-Starter.

Because you have not correctly assessed your "reality."

If you knew that it was a prison and that you were sentenced to death after doing this hard labor, you would not hold on to your rations, your bars, and your pain. You too would be happy to put them down for what they are and make your appeal.

I've given great swathes of my time to discerning true things from false things. I am of course more than interested to hear how you think my "reality" ought be assessed, that's something I see as being of utmost importance. If God is real, then everybody would want to know that, I know I would. Also, if God were real, why would he go to such enormous and elaborate lengths to not only hide from me, but to create a universe in which it seems by every means available to me, that it doesn't exist?

Belief isn't a choice. In fact, let me demonstrate with this thought experiment; If you think belief is a choice, then go to the top of a very, very tall building, choose to believe gravity doesn't apply to you, and step off the building. Facts will always outdo Faith.

 

[JacksBratt]

Is "faith" still necessary at that point?

For some things, yes, for others, no.
It becomes apparent that you have changed, you can read the bible and see new meaning. Your attitude and general state of heart is fresh and free somehow.
Anyway, I'm making a poor attempt at describing a very personal and, in many ways, indescribable event.

In other ways, we do as is expected of us. Some say "What would Jesus do?". When making decisions in our lives, at home at work and elsewhere, we do so with the aim of doing what is righteous. We have faith that "everything that happens, good or bad, is done for our best interests from the viewpoint of God's will for what he has planned for us.

So, ya, no faith for some things that are made obvious. And, yes, faith in living our lives with Christ as our guide.

We are, saved by faith, live by faith and live our lives with everything to bring glory to God. All the while, we have something in our heart of hearts that is something that cannot be described, that assures of us Christs salvation and the presence of the Holy Spirit in our very being.

or perhaps we're just using different definitions...

I doubt it's that simple but you can believe what you want.

We'll all see what we want to see, then, is that it?

Not really. I see the words of man that you see. Science and all that. You cannot see, I repeat, Cannot see what a believer, saved, born again, human with Christ given salvation can see. You are blind to it until you come to accept it without evidence, without proof, only by faith......Then and only then will you see what I see. No matter how much you want to, you can't.

 

[ScottA]

You mean, either try to fool myself into believing something I know could not be true or, look for answers with the tools I have available? did you really need to ask?

That is so revealing, so organic!

 

[ScottA]

Do you honestly think that simply by believing something you can change the outcome of anything? how many times has that worked for you during your lifetime? let me guess, not once.
It's the story of the kings new clothes told to fool the gullible, "It's not there but if you believe hard enough it will appear".
"It's not true but if you believe hard enough it will become true".

Can that master plan be applied to all religions or only the one you believe in?

You haven't been paying attention.

I have (in fact) stated that I do not "believe", but "know." Please restate your comment with that information in the equation. And stop with the total conjecture about things you know nothing about.

 

[TLK Valentine]

For some things, yes, for others, no.
It becomes apparent that you have changed, you can read the bible and see new meaning. Your attitude and general state of heart is fresh and free somehow.
Anyway, I'm making a poor attempt at describing a very personal and, in many ways, indescribable event.

In other ways, we do as is expected of us. Some say "What would Jesus do?". When making decisions in our lives, at home at work and elsewhere, we do so with the aim of doing what is righteous. We have faith that "everything that happens, good or bad, is done for our best interests from the viewpoint of God's will for what he has planned for us.

So, ya, no faith for some things that are made obvious. And, yes, faith in living our lives with Christ as our guide.

We are, saved by faith, live by faith and live our lives with everything to bring glory to God. All the while, we have something in our heart of hearts that is something that cannot be described, that assures of us Christs salvation and the presence of the Holy Spirit in our very being.




I doubt it's that simple but you can believe what you want.

And yet, how to define faith, as opposed to simply listing all the things its used for, seems to be impossibly complex.

Not really. I see the words of man that you see. Science and all that. You cannot see, I repeat, Cannot see what a believer, saved, born again, human with Christ given salvation can see. You are blind to it until you come to accept it without evidence, without proof, only by faith......Then and only then will you see what I see. No matter how much you want to, you can't.

If only you could see your own words -- and the superiority complex contained within...

 

[ScottA]

Men were the author.

"F" - Wrong answer.

 

[ScottA]

I've given great swathes of my time to discerning true things from false things.

Comparatively, God has given you, not part, but all of your life, for that same purpose.

I am of course more than interested to hear how you think my "reality" ought be assessed, that's something I see as being of utmost importance. If God is real, then everybody would want to know that, I know I would. Also, if God were real, why would he go to such enormous and elaborate lengths to not only hide from me, but to create a universe in which it seems by every means available to me, that it doesn't exist?

Likewise, it is a good question if a child were to ask, "Why can't I learn everything all in the first grade, why do I have to go to school until I'm old?" The answer, is not because you could not be given the information in a shorter time...but because you could not process it, and it is you who needs the time it takes.

The other reason, is because you are one of billions. God has kept us in the dark in a process of small revelations, that includes every generation for all time. We each get a taste...and if it is good, we will desire more. Have you tasted of God? Do you desire more? Tell Him. But be patient - remember, all the time it takes...is according to you.

Belief isn't a choice. In fact, let me demonstrate with this thought experiment; If you think belief is a choice, then go to the top of a very, very tall building, choose to believe gravity doesn't apply to you, and step off the building. Facts will always outdo Faith.

Yes, it is a choice: Taste, swallow, or spit it out.

 

[ScottA]

You are stuck in a loop.

Yes, as are you.

But we have told you there is more than one loop, one that is natural and one that is spiritual, one that ends at physical death and one that does not.

Two loops.

 

[amariselle]

You say the Bible is the word of God, and yet can't provide any evidence that this is the case. That is where we are stuck.

What if you're looking for the wrong "evidence?"

And as I said, the evidence is God's, He gives it, not me. I am just a human being, like you.

 

[amariselle]

I'm speaking of being inspired... perhaps if you were to define it, we'd make more progress.

"Inspired: As in "God-breathed." Coming from God Himself, not from man.

 

[amariselle]

Where?

His word primarily, but also in the world around us.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Comparatively, God has given you, not part, but all of your life, for that same purpose.

Millions of people on this planet will never know about God. Heck, in some parts of the Amazon, there are tribes who don't even have a word for God, they simply have no concept of what that would be...

Likewise, it is a good question if a child were to ask, "Why can't I learn everything all in the first grade, why do I have to go to school until I'm old?" The answer, is not because you could not be given the information in a shorter time...but because you could not process it, and it is you who needs the time it takes.

The other reason, is because you are one of billions. God has kept us in the dark in a process of small revelations, that includes every generation for all time. We each get a taste...and if it is good, we will desire more. Have you tasted of God? Do you desire more? Tell Him. But be patient - remember, all the time it takes...is according to you.

Isn't my eternal salvation of utmost importance? Doesn't God want me to be saved? In any case, what if it turns out that Odin is the one true God, and YHWH is a fable? How am I supposed to decide on what spiritual direction is correct? After all, aren't we fallible creatures? Humans are prone to incorrect interpretations and imaginitive gap-filling, if I'm to seriously accept the existence of a God, I am obliged to ensure I have the right one, for both our sakes.

Yes, it is a choice: Taste, swallow, or spit it out.

Again, No, belief is not a choice. Let me know when & where you intend to step off that tall building...