Have heaven and earth passed away yet?

[Travis93]

Matthew 7:17 Do not think I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfil.
Matthew 7:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 7:19 Whosoever therefor shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men to do so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven, but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law of to fail.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, and there was no more sea.

 

[bugkiller]

Is Heb 7:12 true?

bugkiller

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Is Heb 7:12 true?

bugkiller

Lets see where we should place the emphasis of weight for this passage comparison. Jesus spoke the first scripture, so we know without a doubt, clearly given, that nothing shall pass from the law till the heaven and earth pass.

The second passage, from the peer admitted convoluted writing style of Paul, would need to agree with what Jesus clearly taught or he would be preaching another gospel apart from Christ. The better understanding of Heb 7 is that there was a change in how we perceive the law compared to the Jewish economy... as Jeremiah says, this new covenant or understanding will be written in our hearts for the Holy Spirit to affect... something which the Israelites never had the benefit of.... that is the change, from dutifully doing a physical only thing through the sanctuary service, accepted as obedience, to the Spirit convicting our hearts of our sinfulness and need of a Saviour. We would not know sin but for the Commandments so the Spirit can show us our hearts in the light of God's requirements, His character, His government.

 

[bugkiller]

Lets see where we should place the emphasis of weight for this passage comparison. Jesus spoke the first scripture, so we know without a doubt, clearly given, that nothing shall pass from the law till the heaven and earth pass.

The second passage, from the peer admitted convoluted writing style of Paul, would need to agree with what Jesus clearly taught or he would be preaching another gospel apart from Christ. The better understanding of Heb 7 is that there was a change in how we perceive the law compared to the Jewish economy... as Jeremiah says, this new covenant or understanding will be written in our hearts for the Holy Spirit to affect... something which the Israelites never had the benefit of.... that is the change, from dutifully doing a physical only thing through the sanctuary service, accepted as obedience, to the Spirit convicting our hearts of our sinfulness and need of a Saviour. We would not know sin but for the Commandments so the Spirit can show us our hearts in the light of God's requirements, His character, His government.

Is Jesus your priest (advocate) with God? Yes or No.

bugkiller

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Is Jesus your priest (advocate) with God? Yes or No.

bugkiller

Do you just throw out questions for me to answer like I am beholden to answer you... your attitude is very arrogant and not conducive to intelligent conversation... I have you on my ignore list and I thought I would try and dialogue with you again but I now remember why I don't.

 

[bugkiller]

Do you just throw out questions for me to answer like I am beholden to answer you... your attitude is very arrogant and not conducive to intelligent conversation... I have you on my ignore list and I thought I would try and dialogue with you again but I now remember why I don't.

I would love to make statements, but you don't, won't or can't respond to them. So why not ask questions to someone who knows everything and is always correct in their eyes?

bugkiller

 

[Travis93]

Psalms 19:7-10 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
Psalms 111:7-10 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness. He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
Deuteronomy 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
Deuteronomy 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Isaiah 2:2-3 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Micah 4:2-3 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

 

[Bob S]

To all you non farmers who depend on the local grocery store for your provisions do you believe the law is still in effect and you must observe all of the 613 laws of Torah that pertain to you, I ask the following questions.
Of the following laws of Torah how would you know if the crops you are eating are Torah compliant. Remember you are still under Torah law and must keep all the laws that pertain to the individual. Also, are you compliant with the laws pertaining to the Jubilee years. If you are not then why not. Is it your contention that all of these laws are written on our hearts and we should know them by heart? Do you know when the seventh year occurs.

SDAs, if you too believe the law has yet to be fulfilled then according to Jesus not one jot nor one tittle can be removed from the law. This meaning you must also be compliant to the 613 laws that would pertain to you. Number 14 tells you that you must keep the Jubilee holy by not working that year. Is that holy as in holy concerning the weekly Sabbath where you are restricted from even preparing food on the day? If everyday of the year is holy then how do you ever get anything to eat? Do the people you work for allow you the year off?


The Sabbatical and Jubilee Years

1. To let the land lie fallow in the Sabbatical year (Ex. 23:11; Lev. 25:2) (affirmative) (CCI20).
2. cease from tilling the land in the Sabbatical year (Ex. 23:11) (affirmative) (Lev. 25:2) (CCI21).
3. Not to till the ground in the Sabbatical year (Lev. 25:4) (negative) (CCI22).
4. Not to do any work on the trees in the Sabbatical year (Lev. 25:4) (negative) (CCI23).
5. Not to reap the aftermath that grows in the Sabbatical year, in the same way as it is reaped in other years (Lev. 25:5) (negative) (CCI24).
6. Not to gather the fruit of the tree in the Sabbatical year in the same way as it is gathered in other years (Lev. 25:5) (negative) (CCI25).
7. To sound the Ram's horn in the Sabbatical year (Lev. 25:9) (affirmative).
8. To release debts in the seventh year (Deut. 15:2) (CCA64).
9. Not to demand return of a loan after the Sabbatical year has passed (Deut. 15:2) (CCN57).
10. Not to refrain from making a loan to a poor man, because of the release of loans in the Sabbatical year (Deut. 15:9) (CCN56).
11. To assemble the people to hear the Torah at the close of the seventh year (Deut. 31:12) (affirmative)
12. To count the years of the Jubilee by years and by cycles of seven years (Lev. 25:8) (affirmative).
13. To keep the Jubilee year holy by resting and letting the land lie fallow (Lev. 25:10) (affirmative).
14. Not to cultivate the soil nor do any work on the trees, in the Jubilee Year (Lev. 25:11) (negative).
15. Not to reap the aftermath of the field that grew of itself in the Jubilee Year, in the same way as in other years (Lev. 25:11) (negative).
16. Not to gather the fruit of the tree in the Jubilee Year, in the same way as in other years (Lev. 25:11) (negativ
17. To grant redemption to the land in the Jubilee year (Lev. 25:24) (affirmative).

 

[Bob S]

Here are a few more laws I would ask you to ponder. If you are to convince others that they must also follow Torah we need to lnow how t deal with all the laws that pertain to us. How do you comply with the following laws taken from the 613 laws of Torah?

Never to settle in the land of Egypt (Deut. 17:16) (CCN192).
Not to indulge in evil thoughts and sights (Num. 15:39) (CCN156).
Not to plow nor sow the rough valley (in which a heifer's neck was broken) (Deut. 21:4) (negative).
To impose a penalty of fifty shekels upon the seducer (of an unbetrothed virgin) and enforce the other rules in connection with the case (Ex. 22:15-16) (affirmative). How much would that be in US dollars today.
To do unto false witnesses as they had purposed to do (to the accused) (Deut. 19:19) (affirmative). An eye for an eye?
Not to punish any one who has committed an offense under duress (Deut. 22:26) (negative).
Not to drink wine of idolaters (Deut. 32:38) (CCN15). See Grape Products. That would keep the kosher stampers busy.
Not to round the corners of the head, as the idolatrous priests do (Lev. 19:27) (CCN176).
Not to cross-breed cattle of different species (Lev. 19:19) (according to the Talmud,
this also applies to birds) (CCN142).
Not to eat the fruit of a tree for three years from the time it was planted (Lev. 19:23) (CCN105). Do you all buy kosher fruit?
That the fruit of fruit-bearing trees in the fourth year of their planting shall be sacred like the
second tithe and eaten in Jerusalem (Lev. 19:24) (affirmative) (CCI16). See Tu B'Shevat. Wow, are you in compliance?
Not to eat the produce of diverse seeds sown in a vineyard (Deut. 22:9) (negative). All you non farmers beware.

That every person shall write a scroll of the Torah for himself (Deut. 31:19) (CCA15). See Torah. Have you all written your Torah yet?

 

[Travis93]

I don't live in Egypt, so I'm satisfying Deuteronomy 17:16. I ordered my tassels online, they should be here in a few days, to satisfy Numbers 15:39. Deuteronomy 21:4 is about what the elders and judges do in case of finding someone dead, it's not for me. I'm not going to sleep around, the penalty of Exodus 22:16-17 will never apply to me (I agree with the principle, a man should be willing to marry whoever he sleeps with or pay a fine). I'm not going to falsely accuse people, so the penalty of Deuteronomy 19:19 won't apply to me (I agree with the principle, if someone falsely accuses someone it could ruin their life, they deserve whatever punishment they were bringing on other person). I don't drink wine at all, satisfying Deuteronomy 32:38. Deuteronomy 22:26 is common sense, if a woman gets raped it's not her fault. As far as Leviticus 19:27, I stopped shaving my beard altogether. For my hair, I don't shave it all off, but I do keep it short as seems to be suggested in Ezekiel 44:20 and 1 Corinthians 11:14. I never intent to cross breed animals, I'm safe on Leviticus 19:19. I haven't figured out how to deal with the ones about eating fruit.

All those punishment commandments are for judges to deal with, not the common man. Jesus made it clear in Matthew 5:38-39 that eye for an eye isn't about people taking personal vengeance.

 

[Bob S]

I don't live in Egypt, so I'm satisfying Deuteronomy 17:16. I ordered my tassels online, they should be here in a few days, to satisfy Numbers 15:39. Deuteronomy 21:4 is about what the elders and judges do in case of finding someone dead, it's not for me. I'm not going to sleep around, the penalty of Exodus 22:16-17 will never apply to me (I agree with the principle, a man should be willing to marry whoever he sleeps with or pay a fine). I'm not going to falsely accuse people, so the penalty of Deuteronomy 19:19 won't apply to me (I agree with the principle, if someone falsely accuses someone it could ruin their life, they deserve whatever punishment they were bringing on other person). I don't drink wine at all, satisfying Deuteronomy 32:38. Deuteronomy 22:26 is common sense, if a woman gets raped it's not her fault. As far as Leviticus 19:27, I stopped shaving my beard altogether. For my hair, I don't shave it all off, but I do keep it short as seems to be suggested in Ezekiel 44:20 and 1 Corinthians 11:14. I never intent to cross breed animals, I'm safe on Leviticus 19:19. I haven't figured out how to deal with the ones about eating fruit.

All those punishment commandments are for judges to deal with, not the common man. Jesus made it clear in Matthew 5:38-39 that eye for an eye isn't about people taking personal vengeance.

Very good Travis. It appears that you are so good that you really do not need Jesus to cover for you. But wait, there are more laws that you must keep to be complaint.

You must have just enrolled in old covenant rituals since you have yet to get your tassels.

How about all the stuff imposed during the Jubilee year and the Sabbatical year? Will you be taking a year of rest? When does all the special years come up. I have never heard of Jews taking a year off like the Torah demands. It would seem like Jews who own any type of a service oriented business would have a very hard time complying with that demand. How would a family without income survive such a demand?

 

[Travis93]

Very good Travis. It appears that you are so good that you really do not need Jesus to cover for you. But wait, there are more laws that you must keep to be complaint.

You must have just enrolled in old covenant rituals since you have yet to get your tassels.

How about all the stuff imposed during the Jubilee year and the Sabbatical year? Will you be taking a year of rest? When does all the special years come up. I have never heard of Jews taking a year off like the Torah demands. It would seem like Jews who own any type of a service oriented business would have a very hard time complying with that demand. How would a family without income survive such a demand?

I don't think I'm good enough to merit salvation by my works, I'm trying to follow these laws because Jesus did. Was Paul thinking he didn't need Jesus because he kept Sabbath (Acts 17:2), kept feasts (Acts 18:21, Acts 20:16, Acts 27:9), and even kept the rest of the law long after conversion (Acts 24:14, Acts 25:8)?

The seventh year sabbath and Jubilee are rest for the land, as in farming, not all work. I'm not a farmer, it doesn't apply to me. Not every law applies to every person. Some are just for women, some just for judges, some just for kings, and so on.

 

[1John2:4]

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father in Heaven. On that day many will say to me "Lord Lord did we not prophecy in your name, cast out demons in your name and do many mighty works in your name? And I will declare to them, away from me I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness.

Lawlessness
ἀνόμως, adverb, without the law(see ἄνομος, 1), without a knowledge of the law: ἀνόμωςἁμαρτάνειν, to sin in ignorance of the Mosaic law,

The will of The Father
The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecclesiastes 12:13

 

[Bob S]

The seventh year sabbath and Jubilee are rest for the land, as in farming, not all work. I'm not a farmer, it doesn't apply to me. Not every law applies to every person. Some are just for women, some just for judges, some just for kings, and so on.

Maybe not. I wouldn't be so quick in determining who is to celebrate the Jubilee year.. Read this:
The Year of Jubilee
8 “‘Count off seven sabbath years—seven times seven years—so that the seven sabbath years amount to a period of forty-nine years. 9 Then have the trumpet sounded everywhere on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement sound the trumpet throughout your land. 10 Consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you; each of you is to return to your family property and to your own clan. 11 The fiftieth year shall be a jubilee for you; do not sow and do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the untended vines. 12 For it is a jubilee and is to be holy for you; eat only what is taken directly from the fields.

I want to thank you for starting this thread Travis. There is so much in Torah that I have always glossed over because I thought I knew Torah didn't pertain to me. After reading all the laws I am even more convinced they were for Israel only. Israel was a totalitarian country and all of their laws could be practiced within their boundaries. Once God cancelled the covenant and the Israelites lost their country the people could not practice all the commands they once were able to do. I doubt that you today are able to kill the Pascal lamb as required by the Torah. You tell me you are not a farmer and certain laws don't pertain to you, so you are safe from many laws. What if you were a farmer. How would you cope with the laws outside of Israel? As the law points out during Jubilee you would have to travel to your family property. I am sure you wouldn't be able to carry out that command and there are many more laws that could not be carried out beyond the boundaries of Israel. I am more convinced than ever that the covenant Christians are under is not Torah. So, again thanks for causing me to study some of the laws of the Torah for I now realize more than ever what is written on the hearts of man is certainly not Torah, what is written on our hearts is the law of love. Love is the theme of the New Testament (covenant). I will endeavor to live the life of loving my fellow man which has to do with all of morality. You can take your Torah with all its ritual laws meant for Israel only and try to gain perfection by your own works by following Moses. Jesus gave us a new command to love others as He loves us. That is a noble task, one I fully subscribe to. May the gift from Jesus to me, the Holy Spirit continue to guide me in all that I do. Thank you Jesus for living Torah in my stead and then giving me the law of love as my challenge and privilege.

 

[Bob S]

Do you realize the under the Torah and following Moses a whole generation died before they were ready to enter the promised land. Even then God told Moses that those entering the promised land would become corrupt until God finally broke the covenant containing Torah. The covenant, Torah, is no longer the relationship God has with the Israelite people.

Moses was a wonderful leader, but under Torah all of his subjects failed. Even Moses himself failed and was not given the privilege to enter Canaan. Torah has no ability to promise anyone eternal life. Torah becomes a death sentence to those who follow it. Only by our belief in Jesus are we able to enter the real promised land. All this was made possible for us because Jesus did what no man could do and fulfilled the Torah at Calvary. Heaven and Earth did not have to pass for Jesus to accomplish all for us. As Paul so nobly wrote in Galatians 3: 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

All really has been fulfilled by Jesus concerning the law. Thanks be to God!

 

[SAAN]

If obeying God's commands was only of Israel, then you are pretending to be an Israelite by respecting your parents, loving your neighbor not lying, stealing, killing, having sex with animals, performing child sacrifices etc

Remember, God gave those commands to nation of Israel. He didn't give them to any other nation. So, if you keep those commands, you are pretending to be a Jew/Israelite by the reasoning on here.

The commandments are necessary because they are instructions for how to love God and how to love our neighbor. Part of loving God is not worshiping other false Gods and not having idols, not taking his name in vain, honoring your father and mother etc AND loving God means to love your neighbor, by not killing, stealing, bearing false witness, not committing adultery, sexual immorality, etc.

The entire Torah is summed up in Loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself, but that doesn't mean there aren't instructions for how to love God and love your neighbor. God defines how we love him & our neighbor, NOT US. We can't say we love God and our neighbor if we don't live our lives according to how He says to love Him & our neighbor.

Like it has been said many times on here, not all of the Torah still applies to everyone.

God is the one being worshiped , NOT US.

 

[Bob S]

If obeying God's commands was only of Israel, then you are pretending to be an Israelite by respecting your parents, loving your neighbor not lying, stealing, killing, having sex with animals, performing child sacrifices etc

Remember, God gave those commands to nation of Israel. He didn't give them to any other nation. So, if you keep those commands, you are pretending to be a Jew/Israelite by the reasoning on here.

The commandments are necessary because they are instructions for how to love God and how to love our neighbor. Part of loving God is not worshiping other false Gods and not having idols, not taking his name in vain, honoring your father and mother etc AND loving God means to love your neighbor, by not killing, stealing, bearing false witness, not committing adultery, sexual immorality, etc.

The entire Torah is summed up in Loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself, but that doesn't mean there aren't instructions for how to love God and love your neighbor. God defines how we love him & our neighbor, NOT US. We can't say we love God and our neighbor if we don't live our lives according to how He says to love Him & our neighbor.

Like it has been said many times on here, not all of the Torah still applies to everyone.

God is the one being worshiped , NOT US.

I think that is your summation of the Torah. To those who really are dedicated to keeping Torah means wearing the tassels, observing all the feasts as prescribed, observing all the nots and believing that one must be observant to gain salvation.

Saan, who is able to discern what parts of Torah are applicable today. Remember what Jesus said: not one jot nor one tittle.....Who are you to break what Jesus said? You don't believe all has been fulfilled because that would change your whole perspective. This has to be a conundrum.

 

[bugkiller]

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father in Heaven. On that day many will say to me "Lord Lord did we not prophecy in your name, cast out demons in your name and do many mighty works in your name? And I will declare to them, away from me I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness.

Lawlessness
ἀνόμως, adverb, without the law(see ἄνομος, 1), without a knowledge of the law: ἀνόμωςἁμαρτάνειν, to sin in ignorance of the Mosaic law,

The will of The Father
The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecclesiastes 12:13

Sorry but you're the intruder here.

bugkiller

 

[1John2:4]

I am sorry, I thought this was an open forum.

2 Thessalonians

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

[Bob S]

If obeying God's commands was only of Israel, then you are pretending to be an Israelite by respecting your parents, loving your neighbor not lying, stealing, killing, having sex with animals, performing child sacrifices etc

Remember, God gave those commands to nation of Israel. He didn't give them to any other nation. So, if you keep those commands, you are pretending to be a Jew/Israelite by the reasoning on here.

The commandments are necessary because they are instructions for how to love God and how to love our neighbor. Part of loving God is not worshiping other false Gods and not having idols, not taking his name in vain, honoring your father and mother etc AND loving God means to love your neighbor, by not killing, stealing, bearing false witness, not committing adultery, sexual immorality, etc.

The entire Torah is summed up in Loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself, but that doesn't mean there aren't instructions for how to love God and love your neighbor. God defines how we love him & our neighbor, NOT US. We can't say we love God and our neighbor if we don't live our lives according to how He says to love Him & our neighbor.

Like it has been said many times on here, not all of the Torah still applies to everyone.

God is the one being worshiped , NOT US.

Interesting Saan, the problem with your assessment is that God didn't give anyone except Israel all the rituals found in Torah. Morality such as love was given by God to Israel and all His children. It is for every human being. The rituals found in Torah were for the Israelites only.

The law of Love, as Jesus new command, supersedes the 10 with its ritual command to keep the Sabbath. They were to keep the Sabbath in remembrance of God's mercy in their escape from slavery in Egypt. Christians are to remember Jesus sacrifice to deliver us from bondage in sin. We rest in Him because of His works for us. Jesus is our Sabbath rest and we find rest in Him every day.