Gal 4 "under the Law" vs "under Grace" in Romans 6 and not sinning

[bugkiller]

Seems? That is what you wrote, but in your heart you really mean you know I don't. Either way is an attack on my credibility. Sabbath was a ritual. Jews know it is their ritual. Case closed.

You accuse me of discrediting God because I give you bible texts that refute the Sabbath as a Christian duty? That is just plain sick. Your personal attacks prove to me that you cannot refute the scripture I have presented.


This is true. In the plan of salvation God has and continues to deal with His children. He certainly gave Adam and Eve a plan, then came Noah, Abraham, then the Israelites and now us. Each has a special plan or commands that God deemed/deems necessary. Our plan is the last plan and it too differs with the other plans. That does not mean that God changes. What we read is what He planned for mankind from before He created man. God gave Israel Torah and He gives us the covenant of grace. The Torah covenant ended when Israel would not obey it. No more Torah. It all ended at the Cross. Jesus fulfilled Torah and payed the price for all of our sins.

You just don't seem to get it and I guess I am tired of pounding the keys in an effort to help you see the real truth. So, I will end my dialogue with you except when you attack me personally.

I just don't get why they fail to see God's program to redeem man(kind) is progressive.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Bob anytime we accept a change in God, we are taking away from God and is not longer God. it is the only thing we have as believers to stand firm against the devil deceiving ways. It is the core of what faith is since we have never nor will ever see God. The plan is the same since people are the same, sinners. it is like saying then that an animal life was enough to redeem sinners in the OT. If it was so simple Jesus would not have to die for us. God does not take sin so lightly
and Jesus work is not done. He is the High Priest. Hebrew 5
Romans 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Yeah your inference is the false doctrine called the renamed IJ.

bugkiller

 

[1John2:4]

The Torah would cease to be when the covenant relationship ceased. The covenant was with only Israel.

Do you have scripture, anything written in any of the prophets that proves the Torah would be cancelled in the new covenant?

 

[1John2:4]

Paul was human and did some things He never asked any other Christian to do. We don't know why except he did say he tried to be all things to all people. What Paul did does not obligate Christians. The new covenant is not about old covenant rituals.

What do you consider old rituals? Yeshua is our Passover Lamb, 1 Corinthians 5:7 and Penicost happened to fall on the same time as Shavuot not by chance by design. These are fulfilled, filled up with meaning not abolished. We learn about our Messiah when we keep them, we learn they are all about Him. Daniel warned us about the last days Daniel 7:25 the beast would change times and law, times means Moedim in Hebrew which translates to Gods Holy days. Those are Gods days to spend with us, he appointed them, he created the stars and moon and seasons at the creation of the world so we could be with Him. The more I am willing to keep and learn about God and His days the more I understand Him. Having a loving relationship is when you desire to learn about who you love, what they like, what they hate, the times that are important to them. This is what God wants from us too, to find him in this world and to be His peculiar people. He does not want us to do what is right in our own eyes, like Israel or to just keep a list of rules like the Pharisees and be a bunch of hypocrites. He is more than that.

 

[1John2:4]

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and the prophets. He didn't mention anything about the day of the Lord or the Millennium. He did what He said he would do. He fulfilled the law. He by His death ended the old covenant and ushered in the new. That is why Paul's words do not have to be interpreted. They stand on their own. He said in Gal 3 that the Torah was until Jesus. I await your comments.

I knew that eventually I would end up with you in Galatians

I will be honest, this is one of the trickiest books for me to understand. That being said I know it is scripture and it does not contradict the rest of the Bible so I guess here we go.

Let's start in 2 if that is alright with you, 1 just reconfirmes Pauls apostleship. Paul is angry at Peter because Peter is separating himself from the hethen converts. Paul reminds Peter that we are all made righteous through faith in Yeshua. I completely agree with Paul, we are not made righteous by our own works. But we can not be rightous and full of willful sin. Once we are saved from our sin through Yeshua we must keep our garment clean.

"But if, while we seek to be made righteous in Messiah then are found to be sinners, then is Messiah a servent of sin? God forbid! For if I build again these things which I destroyed, I have established myself a transgressors. Galatians 2:17, 2:18

I believe what Paul is stating here is that if you have Yeshua living in you, you cannot have willful sin dwelling in you because living by faith means following
Yeshua.

I also agree that by following a list of does and don'ts with no relationship is fruitless. That is nothing but filthy rags.

 

[1John2:4]

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and the prophets. He didn't mention anything about the day of the Lord or the Millennium. He did what He said he would do. He fulfilled the law. He by His death ended the old covenant and ushered in the new. That is why Paul's words do not have to be interpreted. They stand on their own. He said in Gal 3 that the Torah was until Jesus. I await your comments.

Mark 13 Yeshua predicts the distruction of the temple which came to pass in 70ad. Mark 13 His disiples asked about the sign of the end of days.
Mark 13:14 Yeshua talks about the abomination of desolation also 70 ad when the Church headed for the hills and Rome distroyed the temple. Beginning of despora, no temple.
Mark 13:25, Matt 24:29-31, Luke 21:25-28 and the book of Revelation all talk about the Day of the Lord or the coming of the Son of Man, it's the same thing. This prophecy is found thought the prophets in the Tenakh and Yeshua himself talks about it in the passages I listed above. How can you say it will not come to pass. Do you believe in the pre trib rapture? Please don't be offended if you don't, I am just trying to understand your reasoning.

 

[Bob S]

Mark 13 Yeshua predicts the distruction of the temple which came to pass in 70ad. Mark 13 His disiples asked about the sign of the end of days.

What Jesus or anyone else said doesn't change the fact that Jesus fulfilled the Torah. These other things you refer to are not the Torah.

Mark 13:14 Yeshua talks about the abomination of desolation also 70 ad when the Church headed for the hills and Rome distroyed the temple. Beginning of despora, no temple.

Again not the law He fulfilled.

Mark 13:25, Matt 24:29-31, Luke 21:25-28 and the book of Revelation all talk about the Day of the Lord or the coming of the Son of Man, it's the same thing. This prophecy is found thought the prophets in the Tenakh and Yeshua himself talks about it in the passages I listed above. How can you say it will not come to pass.

Please, where did I say it would not come to pass? I said the Torah ended at Jesus death on the Cross He paid the price for our redemption in full. There is nothing more needed to be done. If you are a believer you have claimed the promise. There is no need to observe any of the rituals given only to Israel.

Do you believe in the pre trib rapture? Please don't be offended if you don't, I am just trying to understand your reasoning.

No, I do not subscribe to the rapture, secret or otherwise. I am wondering why you would ask since it has nothing to do with whether we are still under Torah? Lets stay focused on the real issue. Jesus is coming and we who He has claimed will rise up and become immortal just as was planned from the beginning. Matt 24 tells us it should have happened soon after Jesus said the words. I still believe He i coming and soon.

 

[Bob S]

Do you have scripture, anything written in any of the prophets that proves the Torah would be cancelled in the new covenant?

Why must I always defend my position with scripture. How about you defending your position with scripture. Is there any scripture that says Torah is still in existence?

 

[Bob S]

What do you consider old rituals?

I believe I have made myself clear on that subject.

Yeshua is our Passover Lamb, 1 Corinthians 5:7 and Penicost happened to fall on the same time as Shavuot not by chance by design. These are fulfilled, filled up with meaning not abolished. We learn about our Messiah when we keep them, we learn they are all about Him.

Those ritual days are shadows now. I do not worship shadows. Question: why should we worship shadows. The covenant with Israel is no longer in existence. It is gone brother and you still insist it is relevant today? OY!

Daniel warned us about the last days Daniel 7:25 the beast would change times and law, times means Moedim in Hebrew which translates to Gods Holy days.

Sounds like you believe Christians are following the beast because we do not subscribe to your shadow days.

Those are Gods days to spend with us, he appointed them,

He appointed them for the Israel. Please answer where He ever appointed them to gentile nations.

he created the stars and moon and seasons at the creation of the world so we could be with Him.

I am sorry but I don't understand your statement. Do you?

The more I am willing to keep and learn about God and His days the more I understand Him.

His days for Israel only. All those special days had to do with Israel and not with any other nation or people. You act as though you have to observe those days to be blessed. I get my blessings from the new covenant law of loving others as Jesus loves us. Try it and I am sure you will like it.

 

[Bob S]

I knew that eventually I would end up with you in Galatians

I will be honest, this is one of the trickiest books for me to understand. That being said I know it is scripture and it does not contradict the rest of the Bible so I guess here we go.

Let's start in 2 if that is alright with you, 1 just reconfirmes Pauls apostleship. Paul is angry at Peter because Peter is separating himself from the hethen converts. Paul reminds Peter that we are all made righteous through faith in Yeshua. I completely agree with Paul, we are not made righteous by our own works. But we can not be rightous and full of willful sin. Once we are saved from our sin through Yeshua we must keep our garment clean.

Question: Did Paul ever write that it is okay to willfully sin? We are sinners saved by grace. WE cannot "keep our garments clean" by ourselves. If you say otherwise you are not telling the truth. We are sinners. Keeping old Israel's days and all the other old covenant rituals you can do will not keep you from sinning or make you more faultless in God's eyes. Only through the blood spent for our redemption are our sins covered.

"But if, while we seek to be made righteous in Messiah then are found to be sinners, then is Messiah a servent of sin? God forbid! For if I build again these things which I destroyed, I have established myself a transgressors. Galatians 2:17, 2:18

I believe what Paul is stating here is that if you have Yeshua living in you, you cannot have willful sin dwelling in you because living by faith means following
Yeshua.

I also agree that by following a list of does and don'ts with no relationship is fruitless. That is nothing but filthy rags.

All this is explaining your stance is great, but again you are not staying on the subject and from now on I will not respond to your off the subject comments. Is that fair?

 

[1John2:4]

Sorry but this above quote doesn't come from Matthew. Besides that I don't know what version of the Scripture you're quoting. My Greek transliterated text says "prei emou" - concerning me. If you like I can post the Greek script.These aren't included in the Mat 5 text because of LK 24:44. Yes I understand you say they are. I also understand why you believe that.Why do you insist that Jesus is lying or that Dr. Luke is a false prophet/teacher?

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom 10

Why do you refuse to believe?

bugkiller

End of the law means what we aim to be like, Yeshua it is our goal, look it up for yourself in the Greek. While you are at it lookup lawlessness anti nomos without the law of God. If the cross did away with law how come there are so many verses warning us against lawlessness? Matthew 7:23, 13:41, 24:12 Romans 6:9, Corinthians 6:14, II Thessalonians 7-9, 1 Timothy 1:9, Hebrews 1:9, 2 Peter, 1 John 3:4. Lawlessness was a pretty big concern for these authors. Quite a few warnings for something that can not exsist because the law has been nailed to the cross.

 

[1John2:4]

I believe I have made myself clear on that subject.


Those ritual days are shadows now. I do not worship shadows. Question: why should we worship shadows. The covenant with Israel is no longer in existence. It is gone brother and you still insist it is relevant today? OY!


Sounds like you believe Christians are following the beast because we do not subscribe to your shadow days.


He appointed them for the Israel. Please answer where He ever appointed them to gentile nations.


I am sorry but I don't understand your statement. Do you?


His days for Israel only. All those special days had to do with Israel and not with any other nation or people. You act as though you have to observe those days to be blessed. I get my blessings from the new covenant law of loving others as Jesus loves us. Try it and I am sure you will like it.

Please provide scripture from the prophets that state the Torah was to be abolished. I see only that the Messiah abolished our sin, making us right with God, (salvation) not so we could continue in sin but live a new life through Yeshua. The new covenant is not with the Gentiles you need to re read Jerimiah 31 it states the covenent is with the House of Judah and the House of Isreal. I don't see a House of Gentiles? Gentiles are graphed in. Romans 11.

 

[1John2:4]

He appointed them for the Israel. Please answer where He ever appointed them to gentile nations.

Please read Isaiah 56

 

[1John2:4]

Question: Did Paul ever write that it is okay to willfully sin? We are sinners saved by grace. WE cannot "keep our garments clean" by ourselves. If you say otherwise you are not telling the truth. We are sinners. Keeping old Israel's days and all the other old covenant rituals you can do will not keep you from sinning or make you more faultless in God's eyes. Only through the blood spent for our redemption are our sins covered.


All this is explaining your stance is great, but again you are not staying on the subject and from now on I will not respond to your off the subject comments. Is that fair?

Well I'm sorry if you feel I am straying off topic and you no longer choose to debate. I will respect your wishes. I hope we can debate another time my friend.

 

[Bob S]

Please provide scripture from the prophets that state the Torah was to be abolished. I see only that the Messiah abolished our sin, making us right with God, (salvation) not so we could continue in sin but live a new life through Yeshua. The new covenant is not with the Gentiles you need to re read Jerimiah 31 it states the covenent is with the House of Judah and the House of Isreal. I don't see a House of Gentiles? Gentiles are graphed in. Romans 11.

1Jn, you wrote that you really wanted to debate. Well, I am a little tired of doing all the answering. Either you go back and answer all the questions and comments like I have done for you or this lopsided debate will stop. I have no idea if you agree or disagree with my comments. Take each comment or question and answer it please.

Also, make sure that you quote me properly. Example, You wrote that I said the Torah was abolished. If I did, and I don't think I did, I meant to write that Jesus fulfilled them and they went away when God stopped the covenant relationship with Israel. I know I wrote something very similar to that.

 

[1John2:4]

1Jn, you wrote that you really wanted to debate. Well, I am a little tired of doing all the answering. Either you go back and answer all the questions and comments like I have done for you or this lopsided debate will stop. I have no idea if you agree or disagree with my comments. Take each comment or question and answer it please.

Also, make sure that you quote me properly. Example, You wrote that I said the Torah was abolished. If I did, and I don't think I did, I meant to write that Jesus fulfilled them and they went away when God stopped the covenant relationship with Israel. I know I wrote something very similar to that.

Why the harshness? What do you mean, that you are doing all of the answering? I am sorry if I missed something I will go back and take a look. I am on my cell phone so it is a little more complicated than when I am on a desktop.

Maybe I need to reword my question. What is your definition of fulfilled? It sounds like to me your definition is Yeshua came to put an end to the law of God.

I would love to continue this debate, but please provide the scripture I requested, where in the prophets does it say the Messiah's purpose was to put an end to the Torah.

This is the 3rd time I have requested scripture from you on this matter.

 

[love2obey]

I just don't get why they fail to see God's program to redeem man(kind) is progressive.

bugkiller

when I was younger I used to get frustrated with my parents. I wanted to yell to my mom "you got to change, things change. You used to ride on a horse and now you ride on a plain". Then as I got older and wiser, I realize that things had not changed since we still had an issue of transportation. LOL.... So I changed and started to listen to my parents more.
For the truth to be truthful it has to stand the test of time and all questions that it can be challenge without loosing its validity.
For instance, God can do anything or everything. Not the truth about God. He may be able to lie but He wont for it is against His character. So, He cant lie. Now that is the truth about God.

 

[1John2:4]

What Jesus or anyone else said doesn't change the fact that Jesus fulfilled the Torah. These other things you refer to are not the Torah.

I apologize, obviously I did miss a lot of your side of the debate.

 

[1John2:4]

Did Paul ever write that it is okay to willfully sin? We are sinners saved by grace. WE cannot "keep our garments clean" by ourselves. If you say otherwise you are not telling the truth. W

Paul never wrote it is OK to willfully sin but the definition of sin is transgression of the law 1 John 3:4. So if there is no law there is no sin. Why would we even need help keeping our garments clean?

 

[1John2:4]

m sorry but I don't understand your statement. Do you?

Yes, He created His days in the beginning during creation and they make up His prophetic calendar.