Rapture timing

[JLB777]

Now that's even funnier!

How can that be a post-trib rapture when you just admitted Christ returns to gather His people and destroys the antichrist?

The tribulation end afters the antichrist dies, not before!

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!

I think you are finally getting it.

The rapture/resurrection take place at His coming.
The destruction of the antichrist takes place at His coming.

Read it for yourself:

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


The same coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection/rapture, is the same coming that destroys the antichrist.


The antichrist is destroyed, after the tribulation, by the brightness of His coming, when the Lord comes to gather His people.


This passage of scripture is the nail in the coffin for the false doctrine of "pre-trib rapture.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

I don't need to refute anything here as Mark already refuted you when he said the elects are gathered from heaven.

In a rapture, people go up, they down come down.............silly clown!

No post-trib rapture here either!

How funny.

People who are in heaven, come DOWN from heaven with the Lord to earth, whereby the ones on earth who are alive and remain, are CAUGHT UP, together with those who come down from heaven with the Lord.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

This coming of the Lord at the resurrection/rapture is what destroys the antichrist, which is after the tribulation.


Unless you think the antichrist is destroyed before the tribulation.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2;8


JLB

 

[Straightshot]

"Your going to have to do better than personal insults and opinion, in the face of such overwhelming truth."


I don't have to do anything for you son .... the fact is that your post-tribulation theology is bogus

.... and this is your problem, not mine

 

[Psalm3704]

People who are in heaven, come DOWN from heaven with the Lord to earth, whereby the ones on earth who are alive and remain, are CAUGHT UP, together with those who come down from heaven with the Lord.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

This is the only way post-tribbers can make their argument work by claiming people come down from heaven during the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, however, the bible completely refutes such foolish nonsense.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
14 We believe that Jesus died, but we also believe that he rose again. So we believe that God will raise to life through Jesus any who have died and bring them together with him when he comes.

15 What we tell you now is the Lord’s own message. Those of us who are still living when the Lord comes again will join him, but not before those who have already died. 16 The Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And the people who have died and were in Christ will rise first.​

1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 New Living Translation (NLT)
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.

15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died will rise from their graves.​

Jesus died and Jesus rose from the dead. The dead in Christ died and will also rise from the dead, not descend from heaven. You do know there's no such thing as dead people in heaven, right?

This might be difficult for a post-tribber to comprehend but in a rapture, people go up, they don't come. Dead people come out of the grave and ascend, not descend. Once you understand the basic concept, the flaw in a post-tribulation rapture is easily visible as the blinders are removed.






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[Psalm3704]

Read it for yourself:

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


The same coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection/rapture, is the same coming that destroys the antichrist.

You don't even know what the gathering is. God has been gathering His people back to the holy land for thousands of years after scattering them. It's literally written throughout the old testament, something you definitely don't know much about. It'll be no different in the future. The Israelites will be scattered from war during the great tribulation and God will gather them back after the tribulation. "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." ~ Ecclesiastes 1:9

Those being gathered on earth after the tribulation to bring the scattered Jewish people back to the holy land after being scattered by war. There's no rapture here. They're not being caught up into the air and return down to earth after the tribulation.

Basically there's a "Pre-Trib Rapture" before the tribulation follow a "Post-Trib Gathering" after the tribulation to unite all of Christ's people in the holy land ushering in the millennium.

Ezekiel 39:21-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
21 “I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. 22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day forward. 23 The Gentiles shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I have dealt with them, and hidden My face from them.”’

25 “Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name— 26 after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own land and no one made them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations, 28 then they shall know that I am the Lord their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their land, and left none of them captive any longer. 29 And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord God.”


.
Isaiah 49:8-23 Good News Translation (GNT)
8 The Lord says to his people,
“When the time comes to save you, I will show you favor
and answer your cries for help.
I will guard and protect you
and through you make a covenant with all peoples.
I will let you settle once again
in your land that is now laid waste.
9 I will say to the prisoners, ‘Go free!’
and to those who are in darkness,
‘Come out to the light!’
They will be like sheep that graze on the hills;
10 they will never be hungry or thirsty.
Sun and desert heat will not hurt them,
for they will be led by one who loves them.
He will lead them to springs of water.

11 “I will make a highway across the mountains
and prepare a road for my people to travel.
12 My people will come from far away,
from the north and the west,
and from Aswan in the south.”
13 Sing, heavens! Shout for joy, earth!
Let the mountains burst into song!
The Lord will comfort his people;
he will have pity on his suffering people.

14 But the people of Jerusalem said,
“The Lord has abandoned us!
He has forgotten us.”
15 So the Lord answers,
“Can a woman forget her own baby
and not love the child she bore?
Even if a mother should forget her child,
I will never forget you.
16 Jerusalem, I can never forget you!
I have written your name on the palms of my hands.

17 “Those who will rebuild you are coming soon,
and those who destroyed you will leave.
18 Look around and see what is happening!
Your people are assembling—they are coming home!
As surely as I am the living God,
you will be proud of your people,
as proud as a bride is of her jewels.

19 “Your country was ruined and desolate—
but now it will be too small
for those who are coming to live there.
And those who left you in ruins
will be far removed from you.
20 Your people who were born in exile
will one day say to you,
‘This land is too small—
we need more room to live in!’
21 Then you will say to yourself,
‘Who bore all these children for me?
I lost my children and could have no more.
I was exiled and driven away—
who brought these children up?
I was left all alone—
where did these children come from?’”

22 The Sovereign Lord says to his people:
“I will signal to the nations,
and they will bring your children home.
23 Kings will be like fathers to you;
queens will be like mothers.
They will bow low before you and honor you;
they will humbly show their respect for you.
Then you will know that I am the Lord;
no one who waits for my help will be disappointed.”​

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Jeremiah 31:1-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 “At the same time,” says the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”

2 Thus says the Lord:
“The people who survived the sword
Found grace in the wilderness—
Israel, when I went to give him rest.”

3 The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying:
“Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love;
Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.
4 Again I will build you, and you shall be rebuilt,
O virgin of Israel!
You shall again be adorned with your tambourines,
And shall go forth in the dances of those who rejoice.
5 You shall yet plant vines on the mountains of Samaria;
The planters shall plant and eat them as ordinary food.
6 For there shall be a day
When the watchmen will cry on Mount Ephraim,
‘Arise, and let us go up to Zion,
To the Lord our God.’”

7 For thus says the Lord:
“Sing with gladness for Jacob,
And shout among the chief of the nations;
Proclaim, give praise, and say,
‘O Lord, save Your people,
The remnant of Israel!’
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country,
And gather them from the ends of the earth,
Among them the blind and the lame,
The woman with child
And the one who labors with child, together;
A great throng shall return there.
9 They shall come with weeping,
And with supplications I will lead them.
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters,
In a straight way in which they shall not stumble;
For I am a Father to Israel,
And Ephraim is My firstborn.
10 “Hear the word of the Lord, O nations,
And declare it in the isles afar off, and say,
‘He who scattered Israel will gather him,
And keep him as a shepherd does his flock.’
11 For the Lord has redeemed Jacob,
And ransomed him from the hand of one stronger than he.
12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion,
Streaming to the goodness of the Lord—
For wheat and new wine and oil,
For the young of the flock and the herd;
Their souls shall be like a well-watered garden,
And they shall sorrow no more at all.
13 “Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance,
And the young men and the old, together;
For I will turn their mourning to joy,
Will comfort them,
And make them rejoice rather than sorrow.
14 I will satiate the soul of the priests with abundance,
And My people shall be satisfied with My goodness, says the Lord.”

​

Bottom line is the gathering is not a rapture!

​

***************************************************************************

The rapture/resurrection is before the tribulation.

Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.​

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[Straightshot]

Good post just above revealing the truth about the subject of this thread

The gatherings after the days of the tribulation are not resurrections of anyone, but to separate tribulation believers from unbelievers, first of Israel, and then of the Gentiles .... those found believing of the Gentile nations and favoring the Lord's brethren [His kin] of His nation of Israel will enter and populate His millennial kingdom on the earth .... those of the unbelieving who did not favor Israel during the tribulation will be rejected and not allowed into the kingdom [this should be a warning to those who are against Israel today and yet claim to be the followers of Jesus Christ]

And the gathering referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is the pre-tribulation call for the Lord's true ecclesia to immortalize them [both the dead in Christ and those living at the time] .... the Thessalonians of the early church thought that they had missed the call and Paul sets them straight

.... they already knew this this [1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9]

He said that the day of the Lord's judgment had not yet come and therefore the Thessalonians had not missed .... that there were teachers who were telling that the day of the Lord had already come and was present

We have false teachers today who do the same in a different way, they say that the day of the Lord was back in 70 AD and that His kingdom is already on the earth today .... therefore, no pre-tribulation calling .... and go on to say that the Lord has no future intent to judge the world again

These are the scoffers of the last days .... most of the divides of professing Christianity teach this lie today [2 Peter 3]

 

[JLB777]

ou don't even know what the gathering is. God has been gathering His people back to the holy land for thousands of years after scattering them.

The gathering of His people to Israel is just that.

However the gathering together to Him, is a reference to the resurrection/rapture that happens at His coming.

The gathering together to Him is in direct reference and coincides with His coming.

26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Mark 13:26-27


All those who are His will be gathered from Heaven and from earth, to be together with Him.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:17

The gathering together of God's people is when those who are in heaven [those who sleep] are gathered together with those who are alive and remain on earth, so that both groups are gathered together to be with the Lord.

This gathering together to Him happens at His coming.

The same coming of the Lord to gather His people, also destroys the antichrist.


Let's now look again at 2 Thessalonians, and see the coming of the Lord and the gathering together to Him, as well as the destruction of the antichrist.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


Your desperate last ditch effort to twist what the scriptures so plainly say, has failed, because it's the gathering together to Him.

Together to Him.

Not gather the Jews to Israel!


JLB

 

[Straightshot]

No resurrections for the gathernings just after the days of the tribulation JBL .... not one

If that is where you are looking for yours, forget it

And if you are alive and find yourself in the tribulation you will know that you have missed your transformation to immortality

If so, pay careful attention to this warning from the Lord [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:9-15]

You can go through the door, or be tossed into the tribulation .... your choice before the "thief" comes

Then you will have to repent and if you do you will either be martyred for your faith during the tribulation, or gathered as a survivor just after .... as a mortal .... and you can be a sheep

Your post-tribulation view that you have been taught is a ruse, and you need to adjust your thinking .... it is a misleading trap to catch you off guard

It is the devil who calls the pre-tribulation calling of the Lord's intent a "lie"

He has motive .... he wants to meet you in the tribulation where he will hunt and kill you [Revelation 12:12]

.... you should want to be one of those who dwell in heaven during the tribulation .... and not on the earth

 

[Psalm3704]

Your desperate last ditch effort to twist what the scriptures so plainly say, has failed, because it's the gathering together to Him.

Together to Him.

Not gather the Jews to Israel!

Why is it whenever you call me desperate I'm at my best at making you look foolish?

Example. Two weeks ago you quoted Zechariah 14:4 revealing Jesus coming to earth when His feet touches the Mount of Olives.

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.

Guess where the Mount of Olives is located at when Christ arrives to earth? Here's a hint. It's not in New York city!

Acts 1:11-12 New Living Translation (NLT)
11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why are you standing here staring into heaven? Jesus has been taken from you into heaven, but someday he will return from heaven in the same way you saw him go!”
12 Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives, a distance of half a mile.​

JBL, you're so brilliant (cough!), if Jesus isn't gathering His people to Him from Israel, than where is this Jerusalem the bible speaks of? In New York city?







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[Biblewriter]

The whole problem lies in assuming that all the prophecies about our Lord's coming speak of the same time. This is a 100% pure, unadulterated, assumption. And as long as it is maintained, the apparent contradictions between various prophecies about His coming cannot be resolved. But as soon as we realize that He is coming back more than just one time, all apparent contradictions disappear.

 

[Straightshot]

I agree with BW in a sense

First of all the Lord has never left His attention .... He is omniscient and omnipresent

And when He decides to break into the affairs of humanity suddenly and without warning He will immortalize His own in an instant, and then continue on with His intent to bring His judgment upon an unbelieving world which will play out for 2550 days, and then He will appear to the surviving earth dwellers

So there are not two comings .... His attention will start at the onset .... finish with His visible appearance upon the earth

 

[Bible2+]

Psalm3704 said in post 549:

. . . if Jesus isn't gathering His people to Him from Israel, than where is this Jerusalem the bible speaks of? In New York city?

Note that the rapture will gather together the church not only from Israel, but from the uttermost part of the earth (Mark 13:27).

For the rapture will first take believers straight up into the sky wherever they are on the earth's surface. But this will be thousands of different places in the sky (the 1st heaven), all around the globe. So then they will need to be gathered together by angels (Mark 13:27; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where Jesus will be, above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). For example, if a believer is raptured into the sky above New Zealand, he will then need to be led by an angel over oceans and continents until he arrives above Jerusalem.

So this is one purpose for the rapture: to get believers from all around the globe into one place in the sky above Jerusalem, to meet with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17b).

A 2nd purpose will be so that the church can then be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church can then be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), in the sky, before Jesus descends to wage war against the armies of the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

 

[Bible2+]

Straightshot said in post 551:

He will immortalize His own in an instant, and then continue on with His intent to bring His judgment upon an unbelieving world which will play out for 2550 days . . .

Note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's judgment or wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his judgment or wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's judgment or wrath, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the 1st stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what Satan could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath, none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[Psalm3704]

Note that the rapture will gather together the church not only from Israel, but from the uttermost part of the earth (Mark 13:27).

if Jesus isn't gathering His people to Him from Israel, than where is this Jerusalem the bible speaks of? In New York city?

We're not talking about where the church will be when they're being gathered. We're talking about where Jesus will be when He gathers, which will be in Israel. Enjoying that foot in your mouth Bible2?

*****************************************

Note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's judgment or wrath

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16)

Winner of the Bonehead award!







.

 

[JLB777]

No resurrections for the gathernings just after the days of the tribulation JBL .... not one

If that is where you are looking for yours, forget it

And if you are alive and find yourself in the tribulation you will know that you have missed your transformation to immortality

If so, pay careful attention to this warning from the Lord [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:9-15]

You can go through the door, or be tossed into the tribulation .... your choice before the "thief" comes

Then you will have to repent and if you do you will either be martyred for your faith during the tribulation, or gathered as a survivor just after .... as a mortal .... and you can be a sheep

Your post-tribulation view that you have been taught is a ruse, and you need to adjust your thinking .... it is a misleading trap to catch you off guard

It is the devil who calls the pre-tribulation calling of the Lord's intent a "lie"

He has motive .... he wants to meet you in the tribulation where he will hunt and kill you [Revelation 12:12]

.... you should want to be one of those who dwell in heaven during the tribulation .... and not on the earth

The resurrection/rapture are one event that occurs on the last day, at His coming.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


Both the living and the dead will be caught up together, in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:39-40


JLB

 

[JLB777]

Guess where the Mount of Olives is located at when Christ arrives to earth? Here's a hint. It's not in New York city!

Acts 1:11-12 New Living Translation (NLT)
11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why are you standing here staring into heaven? Jesus has been taken from you into heaven, but someday he will return from heaven in the same way you saw him go!”
12 Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives, a distance of half a mile.
JBL, you're so brilliant (cough!), if Jesus isn't gathering His people to Him from Israel, than where is this Jerusalem the bible speaks of? In New York city?

Jesus returns to Jerusalem to reign as King.

Another desperate attempt to try and change the subject of the discussion.

The coming of the Lord results in: The gathering [resurrection/rapture] of His people and the destruction of the antichrist.

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 Thessalonians 2:1

• And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

The coming of the Lord = Gathering of His people.
The coming of the Lord = Destruction of the antichrist


JLB

 

[Straightshot]

Here is the order:

The gathering and transformation to immortality of the Lord's true ecclesia noted in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 will come first

Then the Lord will being His judgment against an unbelieving world which will last for 2550 days

Then the Lord will imprison Satan in the abyss

.... and then He will gather the human survivors just after the days of the tribulation .... this gathering is not a resurrection of anyone, but a separation of those found believing and those found in unbelief .... these mortals will enter His millennial kingdom on the earth

Again .... the first gathering will come just before the day of the Lord begins in which Satan's man of lawlessness will operate until he and his human followers are destroyed at the battle of Armageddon at the end of the tribulation period, and Satan' will be tossed into the abyss

Then the Lord will gather the mortal survivors of the tribulation into His millennial kingdom upon the earth

Post-tribulation thinking is bogus by attempting to make the gathering and transformation to immortality of the Lord's true ecclesia the same as the gathering of the mortal survivors who will enter and populate His millennial kingdom .... none of these will be resurrected to immortality at the time

.... resurrected beings do not procreate [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

 

[JLB777]

Here is the order:

The gathering and transformation to immortality of the Lord's true ecclesia noted in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 will come first

Completely False!

The order is the resurrection of the dead in Christ is first.

Then, we who alive and remain will be caught up together WITH them.

This gathering of ALL of God's people will take place at His coming on the last Day.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:39-40

The Gathering of ALL His people on the last Day, at His coming, is the very same coming by which the false Christ is destroyed.
2 Thessalonans 2:8


JLB

 

[Straightshot]

"This gathering of ALL of God's people will take place at His coming on the last Day"


Negative

The passage that you refer to does not exist as you state it .... it is either "in" the last day, or "at" the last day .... never stated as "on" the last day

"In" or "at" refers to the time of the coming "day of the Lord" which is a period of time, not just one day at the end of the period .... He will come as a thief to execute this period of 2550 days of his judgment .... and He will appear upon the earth just at the end of the same [Matthew 24:29-31; Revelation 1:7]

This term is used by the prophets many times "in that day" referring to events that will take place during a period of time

In addition, your idea of a resurrection after the days of the tribulation is bogus

Because the gatherings of the few survivors of the tribulation of both Israel and the nations are of believing mortals who will be separated for entrance into the Lord's millennial kingdom on the earth .... and these will procreate and populate the kingdom .... as mortals

You view would necessarily prohibit this truth because according to you all believers will be made immortal and there will be none to populate His kingdom on the earth .... but there will be

This is one of the biggest flaws in the post tribulation theology .... there are others

His millennial kingdom will consist of both immortals and mortals during the 1000 years

The immortals will be the pre-tribulation numbers of those believers already on thrones of both the dead in Christ and those living at the time .... these are seen in heaven as immortals during the tribulation upon the earth [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14;18:4 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:1-4 [those already on thrones]]

.... and those who will become believers during the tribulation period who will be martyred and resurrected at the end of the tribulation [Revelation 6:9-11; 11:7-12; 13:7; 14:13; 15:2-3]

Believe what you want, but I can tell you the scriptural evidence is against your view hands down .... and the dogma of the post-tribulation concept has potential dangers laced within

 

[Bible2+]

Straightshot said in post 557:

.... resurrected beings do not procreate [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

Regarding Matthew 25:31-46, note that Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the "nations" will be finally-judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will finally-judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when the unsaved of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent into the everlasting suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of God the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

*******

Straightshot said in post 559:

In addition, your idea of a resurrection after the days of the tribulation is bogus

Note that the 2nd-coming resurrected church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, just as the 2nd-coming married church is mentioned in Revelation 19:7.

Straightshot said in post 559:

You view would necessarily prohibit this truth because according to you all believers will be made immortal and there will be none to populate His kingdom on the earth .... but there will be

Those who will populate the millennium, in the sense of having offspring during the millennium, will be the unsaved people "left" alive in their mortal bodies at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:39b-40, Zechariah 14:16-19). The millennium could also be populated by the elect Jews who will get saved at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14). For they could enter the millennium (Zechariah 14:5-21) while still in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of the saved into immortal physical bodies at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) could be only for those who had become saved before the 2nd coming.

Straightshot said in post 559:

The immortals will be the pre-tribulation numbers of those believers already on thrones . . .

Regarding "the pre-tribulation numbers", note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Straightshot said in post 559:

.... these are seen in heaven as immortals during the tribulation upon the earth [Revelation 3:10 . . .

Regarding Revelation 3:10, note that the 7 letters to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is today western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself or from the earth in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself or from the classroom in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the 1st century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

Straightshot said in post 559:

.... these are seen in heaven as immortals during the tribulation upon the earth [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10 . . .

Regarding Revelation 4:4 and Revelation 5:1-10, note that the 24 elders could be 24 chief angels who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24, Hebrews 8:5), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as humans on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which is the lament of a female millworker in the 19th century).

The 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.

Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).

Also, the 24 elders sitting on thrones (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the devil can sit on a throne (Revelation 2:13, Revelation 13:2b), then some angels can sit on thrones.

Also, the 24 elders being called "elders" (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, even though angels don't age. For they can be a special group of elder angels simply in the sense of them having been created sometime before other angels.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because no other part of the Bible ever refers to angels as "elders". But this argument is like the argument of full preterism, which claims that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can't be physical because all the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all. Similarly, Revelation can be the only place where "elders" refers to angels.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because they wear crowns of victory. But in Revelation 4:4, the original Greek word (stephanos: G4735) translated as crowns doesn't have to always refer to a crown of victory, but can sometimes refer to a crown signifying "honor generally" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Also, angels can win victories (Revelation 12:7-9), and so can wear crowns of victory.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because they perform physical acts (Revelation 4:10). But angels can perform physical acts, like how the 2 angels who rescued Lot and his family grabbed their hands to hasten them out of Sodom (Genesis 19:1,16).

Straightshot said in post 559:

.... these are seen in heaven as immortals during the tribulation upon the earth [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17 . . .

Regarding Revelation 7:9-17, note that it doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture into heaven. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude could be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Regarding the rapture, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

-

There are 3 heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b). The 1st heaven is the sky, the atmosphere, in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The 2nd heaven is outer space, where the sun, moon, and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2), and so it is beyond outer space, in the sense of it being in a higher (i.e. a 4th) spatial dimension. And it is a physical place, for Jesus ascended there in his physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39). And Paul said that he could have visited there in his physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken up there in their physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5). And the 2 witnesses will be taken up there in their physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12).

In the 3rd heaven, there is currently a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), which is called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is above (Galatians 4:26), and the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a new earth (a new surface of the earth) and a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will come down in New Jerusalem from the 3rd heaven to the new earth to live with people on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It is New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) which people ascribe to heaven. So what people think of as heaven, in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the new earth.

Currently, the 3rd heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where believers go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So believers go to the 3rd heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when people go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem.

The earth's 3rd heaven could be high above the north pole (cf. the connection between heaven and the north in Isaiah 14:13, KJV). Regarding what we today call "the northern lights", even though they can been explained by physics, they could still point to the location of the glory of the earth's 3rd heaven. And Psalm 48:2's reference to the north could refer to the location of New Jerusalem in heaven.

Straightshot said in post 559:

.... these are seen in heaven as immortals during the tribulation upon the earth [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 12:12; 13:6 . . .

Regarding Revelation 12:12 and Revelation 13:6, those in the church who will be dwelling in heaven at that mid-tribulation time will be those who have died (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11) and those who are part of the 144,000 (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus; Revelation 12:5b).

Straightshot said in post 559:

.... these are seen in heaven as immortals during the tribulation upon the earth [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14 . . .

Regarding Revelation 17:14, note that Jesus' coming FOR the faithful and WITH the faithful will occur at the same 2nd coming. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth, and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be in the clouds above Jerusalem, before he descends to set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

Straightshot said in post 559:

.... these are seen in heaven as immortals during the tribulation upon the earth [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:1-9 . . .

Regarding Revelation 19:1-9, the people in the church who will be dwelling in heaven at the end-of-the-tribulation time of Revelation 19:1 will be those who have died (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11) and those who are part of the 144,000 (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus; Revelation 12:5b).

In Revelation 19:6, the "great multitude" could consist only of angels (cf. Revelation 5:11). For it could be distinguishing itself from the church, the "wife" in Revelation 19:7-8.

Revelation 19 is Jesus' 2nd coming, which is when other passages show he will rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31). At Jesus' 2nd coming, before he goes to war (Revelation 19:11-21), he will rapture (gather together) the church (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:14-30), and marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-13).

So in Revelation 19:7, the church is in the 1st heaven, the sky, for the wedding, and it got there at the post-tribulation rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31).

Regarding Revelation 19:9, the marriage supper won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Similarly, the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

That is, Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation 16:15 could mean that 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), Jesus' 2nd coming will occur, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up; and if the 7 vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1); and if the first 6 vials will be poured out over 30 days; then the 6th vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).

It is on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the 6th vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus' 2nd coming on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the world's armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and their total defeat (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

Straightshot said in post 559:

.... these are seen in heaven as immortals during the tribulation upon the earth [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:14 . . .

Regarding Revelation 19:14, there the original Greek word (ouranos: G3772) translated as "heaven" can refer to the "sky" (Matthew 16:2-3, Luke 12:56), which will be the location of the literal clouds and air of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Revelation 19:14 refers to the future point in time when the already physically-resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) and married obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8) will descend with Jesus from the sky (the 1st heaven), where the church will have been raptured to in order to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).