Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

[-57]

Well, I didn't invent the Bible in what it says. God did. There are plenty of verses that you have to twist beyond recognition in order for you to NOT believe that a believer cannot fall away from the faith. Unless of course you believe saints are sinners like the wicked. But does not even the word "saint" tell you that sinning is not a part of what a "saint" even means? Do you not know that he that does righteousness is righteous? (See 1 John 3:7). Or do you just not want to hear that part of the Bible?



Was it selfish of you to respond to God's grace in the first place? How is selfish to respond to what He wants you to do? A Command is not a suggestion from God. It is called a Command for a reason. The Bible says the fear of the Lord, men depart from evil (Proverbs 16:6). James says we are to put away filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness (sin) which is able to save our souls (James 1:21). Also, when you obey God's Commands, they lead to be unselfish in behavior and thought. To love God and to love others are commands from God that lead you to think about others besides yourself.



But God gives these commands within His World and says there are consequences if you do not keep them. Surely you have read Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, 1 John 3:15, and Revelation 21:8. Why would God appear to to threaten us with destruction if we behave in a wrong way just to quickly later say that is not what He means? It doesn't add up. Please explain these verses and other strong warnings by God that are similar.

Besides, does not life teach us that there are consequences to our actions?
You know, you reap what you sow? (Galatians 6:7).



Paul says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
The word "fear" is actually talking about "fear" because it is in context to the word "trembling." A person trembles if they are in fear.



So you are saying that following the Commands in the New Testament from the Lord) is more wrong than say doing evil and having a belief on Jesus? Are you saying that God is going to reward the wicked and punish the righteous? Is that what you are saying?
Please take note that I do believe Jesus ulltimately saves us. If a believer sins, they do not get right with God by going out and doing another work. They get cleansed by God's grace by repenting of their sins (i.e. by confessing and forsaking sin) (See 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, Proverbs 28:13, Matthew 12:41 cf. Jonah 3:6-10).



It's actually both. A true believer will keep God's Commands because they realize that there is no other way. Abiding in Christ means one will abide in God's good ways. To not abide in God's good ways is to abide in the devil's kingdom; And that path always leads to death and not life. A person who is a true believer not only obey because they realize that there is punishment if they do not obey, but they also want to obey because they are a changed and new creature in Christ who desires to truly please God (Not on their own terms but on God's terms).



Actually, the Bible teaches that. Again, read Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, 1 John 3:15, and Revelation 21:8. Also see 1 Corinthians 14:37 and 1 Timothy 6:3-4.



If this was the case, then Jesus would have never scared anyone with hell fire for a person looking upon a woman in lust. He would have stressed that a person can lust after a woman and merely have a belief on Jesus so as to to miss out on hell fire. But is that what we see in Scripture? No. Not even close.


...

Jason, I would imagine you're overcome with with fear and trembling...because if you can lose your salvation you already have.

You're very first paragraph talks about twisting verses....YET THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE DONE. As an example I'll pull one out of your post. "You know, you reap what you sow? (Galatians 6:7)" That verse isn't about losing ones salvation. Why have you used it as if it has? This is what makes corresponding with your type extremely hard. You even have misapplied the "looking upon a woman in lust" verse. You're view tells us Jesus can't forgive the sin of lust. Which is bad news for every guy.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Why don't you think God saves the wicked?"

Because scripture says they won't be saved.

Why did you ignore the verses where Jesus said who He came to save then?

"God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. (Romans 2:6-8, NIV)"

If "doing good" persistently is the basis and requirement for receiving eternal life, then there are a whole lot of verses that are UNTRUE. Why in the world would anyone believe that Rom 2:6-8 represents how people CAN get saved?

Instead, the passage teaches that only total perfection (persistence in doing good) would result in receiving eternal life.

However, we KNOW that isn't possible, because Paul followed that statement up with Rom 3:9 and 23, where he states that everyone is under sin, and that all have sinned.

So much for trying to persist in doing good. Ain't going to work, if that's your plan for getting to heaven.

Further, using that verse in the way you've presented it would eliminate the very reason Jesus Christ died for our sins.

If it were possible for anyone to actually persist in going good, then Christ's death on their behalf wasn't necessary. That is not only heresy, but blasphemy. Nullifying the work of Christ on the cross is blatantly UN-Christian.

Correct, but Jesus came to save them from their sins, not so they could continue to live in sin.

Then why do you persist in using Rom 2:6-8 in the way you do?

 

[samir]

So, now it becomes legalism with a loop hole.

There is no loop hole. If you were willing to humble yourself you might be able to understand scripture.

 

[samir]

I know my salvation isn't based upon me not sinning. All of my sins, and I will say it again...ALL...of my sins were imputed to Jesus Christ on the cross.
Should I live a sinful life? Of course not. Will I sin in the future? Yes. Has that sin already been forgiven? Yes.

That is a license to sin and condemned by scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Jesus also taught that those He gives eternal life will NEVER perish.
John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "

You always leave out verse 27, and I keep including it.

V.27 doesn't define those to whom He gives eternal life to. 10:9 does that.
7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

Having eternal life and being saved are synonymous. Can't have one without the other.

Those who "enter through Me" refers to believing in Christ for salvation. That's the criterion for receiving eternal life, and Jesus promises those who have believed that they WILL NEVER PERISH.

Therefore, it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone who has believed to every PERISH. Jesus said so.

FG2, do you hear Jesus' voice?
If you do, He knows you ...
meaning He has a personal relationship with you.

I have a personal relationship with Him because I have placed my full trust in Him for salvation. iow, I have entrusted my very soul to Him to save me.

And those who follow Jesus obey His commands.

Just know that no one follows Him perfectly.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are 15 NT verses which teach us (hopefully) that ...
One must endure in his/her faith until the end of physical life
to be given eternal life!
This one of the NT topics which proves that salvation is a process.

One can "hope" all they want, but that won't change the truth. And the bolded words in your post have a very narrow application. It's only about the Tribulation period. It's NOT a blanket statement for all of humanity.

 

[samir]

I said this:
"Why don't you think God saves the wicked?"

Why did you ignore the verses where Jesus said who He came to save then?

I didn't. I believe all those verses.

If "doing good" persistently is the basis and requirement for receiving eternal life, then there are a whole lot of verses that are UNTRUE. Why in the world would anyone believe that Rom 2:6-8 represents how people CAN get saved?

You misinterpreted Rom 2:6-8. It isn't about how people CAN get saved but about who WILL be saved. Everyone who persists in doing good will be saved by grace, not by works.

Instead, the passage teaches that only total perfection (persistence in doing good) would result in receiving eternal life.

If it taught that, then everyone would go to hell and God's word would be nullified since it doesn't apply to anyone. I KNOW that's definitely not possible.

However, we KNOW that isn't possible, because Paul followed that statement up with Rom 3:9 and 23, where he states that everyone is under sin, and that all have sinned.

Actually Paul taught in Rom 5 that some people have not sinned so your interpretation of Rom 3 is clearly in error.

So much for trying to persist in doing good. Ain't going to work, if that's your plan for getting to heaven.

My plan is to rely on the grace of God who promises to give heaven as a reward to those who love him.

Further, using that verse in the way you've presented it would eliminate the very reason Jesus Christ died for our sins.

Jesus' sacrifice is what allows those who persist in doing good to get to heaven. Without it, they would all go to hell despite their good deeds.

If it were possible for anyone to actually persist in going good, then Christ's death on their behalf wasn't necessary. That is not only heresy, but blasphemy. Nullifying the work of Christ on the cross is blatantly UN-Christian.

Nothing is nullified. Jesus didn't die so you could live in sin.

Then why do you persist in using Rom 2:6-8 in the way you do?

Because my interpretation fits the context, agrees with scripture, and is how the Christian church has understood it from the beginning.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That is a license to sin and condemned by scripture.

Where do we read anywhere in Scripture about this alleged "license to sin"?? There isn't one. Unless one counts the human nature itself.

By having a human nature, we ARE sinners. We don't need to license.

Just like one doesn't need a license to drive a car. One just needs to know how to drive a car in order to do it.

Same for sin. We don't need to be taught to sin because it is within our human nature to sin.

So let's just cease from the ridiculous notion that there is such a thing as "license to sin".

The Bible reveals even spiritually mature believers are quite capable of sinning. And do.

 

[-57]

There is no loop hole. If you were willing to humble yourself you might be able to understand scripture.

So, what are you saying here? You have to be humble to understand scripture? Where is that in the bible?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I didn't. I believe all those verses.

Your posts clearly indicate otherwise.

You misinterpreted Rom 2:6-8. It isn't about how people CAN get saved but about who WILL be saved. Everyone who persists in doing good will be saved by grace, not by works.

All misinterpreting is on your side. Let's hear what the Word of God really says:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

So, to summarize:
your position:
everyone who persists in doing good will be saved by grace.

The words "doing good" means keeping the Law, since the Law prescribed good behavior.
we have been saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. Not by persisting in doing good.

I said this:
"Instead, the passage teaches that only total perfection (persistence in doing good) would result in receiving eternal life."

If it taught that, then everyone would go to hell and God's word would be nullified since it doesn't apply to anyone. I KNOW that's definitely not possible.

Sometimes one must read a bit further to get the whole concept. In Rom 3:9 and 23 Paul stated that everyone is under sin, and that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Actually Paul taught in Rom 5 that some people have not sinned.

So, have you snipped Rom 3:9 and 23 out of your Bible???

Please cease from making such outrageous claims that aren't supported by Scripture.

So, please quote specific verses from Romans 5 that support your claim.

I said this:
"So much for trying to persist in doing good. Ain't going to work, if that's your plan for getting to heaven."

My plan is to rely on the grace of God who promises to give heaven as a reward to those who love him.

Once again you've claimed something that is NOT taught in Scripture.

Jesus' sacrifice is what allows those who persist in doing good to get to heaven.

No His sacrifice DOES NOT ALLOW what you are claiming. His sacrifice is precisely BECAUSE no human can persist in doing good. That's WHY He paid the penalty for our sins. The issue is NOT about what we do to get to heaven, but what He did FOR US so that we can get to heaven.

Without it, they would all go to hell despite their good deeds.

Again, His sacrifice has NOTHING to do with our behavior at all.

Nothing is nullified. Jesus didn't die so you could live in sin.

He died to pay the penalty for our sins. It appears to me that this isn't understood by you.

I said this:
"Then why do you persist in using Rom 2:6-8 in the way you do?"

Because my interpretation fits the context, agrees with scripture, and is how the Christian church has understood it from the beginning.

My explanations, which include more of what Paul wrote in Romans refutes your interpretation.

 

[samir]

Your posts clearly indicate otherwise.

The problem lies with your reasoning, not the posts.

Let's hear what the Word of God really says:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

So, to summarize:
your position:
everyone who persists in doing good will be saved by grace.

Correct.

The words "doing good" means keeping the Law, since the Law prescribed good behavior.

No. Doing good means doing good. It has nothing to do with keeping the Law of Moses regardless of what is prescribed. If public school teacher gave a student a sticker for doing good, it wasn't because he kept the Law of Moses.

we have been saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. Not by persisting in doing good.

Those who persist in doing good do so because they have faith. They are saved by grace, not by any works they have done.

I said this:
"Instead, the passage teaches that only total perfection (persistence in doing good) would result in receiving eternal life."

Sometimes one must read a bit further to get the whole concept. In Rom 3:9 and 23 Paul stated that everyone is under sin, and that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.


So, have you snipped Rom 3:9 and 23 out of your Bible???

Please cease from making such outrageous claims that aren't supported by Scripture.

So, please quote specific verses from Romans 5 that support your claim.

I agree with Rom 3:9 that all are under sin since original sin effects everyone. Rom 3:23 is hyperbole. Rom 5:14 says, "death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin"

I said this:
"So much for trying to persist in doing good. Ain't going to work, if that's your plan for getting to heaven."

Once again you've claimed something that is NOT taught in Scripture.


No His sacrifice DOES NOT ALLOW what you are claiming. His sacrifice is precisely BECAUSE no human can persist in doing good. That's WHY He paid the penalty for our sins. The issue is NOT about what we do to get to heaven, but what He did FOR US so that we can get to heaven.


Again, His sacrifice has NOTHING to do with our behavior at all.


He died to pay the penalty for our sins. It appears to me that this isn't understood by you.

The sacrifice is what makes salvation possible. Faith working through love is what allows people to receive salvation as a result of that sacrifice.

I said this:
"Then why do you persist in using Rom 2:6-8 in the way you do?"

My explanations, which include more of what Paul wrote in Romans refutes your interpretation.

My interpretation is consistent with all of scripture. That's not the case with your interpretation.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Peace be with you.

10 While he was at table in his house, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat with Jesus and his disciples.

11 The Pharisees saw this and said to his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?"

12 He heard this and said, "Those who are well do not need a physician, but the sick do.

In case you don't know this, Jesus regards sinners as "sick".

If you are a sinner, you are sick so you Need Jesus to cure you.

God bless you.

 

[-57]

Perhaps someone can provide a biblical standard on just how good, or just how few sins a believer needs to ensure themself they have endured to the end.

 

[EmSw]

I fail to see the point of that post.

Do you obey Biblical laws (legalism), or do you not obey Biblical laws (lawlessness)?

 

[EmSw]

Perhaps someone can provide a biblical standard on just how good, or just how few sins a believer needs to ensure themself they have endured to the end.

A true believer does not even think about such things. Their heart is upon obeying and becoming more like Jesus throughout their whole life. We don't think about how much we can get away with, but rather, how much we can do for Him and please Him.

 

[-57]

Do you obey Biblical laws (legalism), or do you not obey Biblical laws (lawlessness)?

You're definitions are flawed. That's why you arn't making much sense.

 

[-57]

A true believer does not even think about such things. Their heart is upon obeying and becoming more like Jesus throughout their whole life. We don't think about how much we can get away with, but rather, how much we can do for Him and please Him.

Do you think people who understand their salvation can't be lost....Think about how much they can get away with?

 

[EmSw]

Jason, I would imagine you're overcome with with fear and trembling...because if you can lose your salvation you already have.

You're very first paragraph talks about twisting verses....YET THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE DONE. As an example I'll pull one out of your post. "You know, you reap what you sow? (Galatians 6:7)" That verse isn't about losing ones salvation. Why have you used it as if it has? This is what makes corresponding with your type extremely hard. You even have misapplied the "looking upon a woman in lust" verse. You're view tells us Jesus can't forgive the sin of lust. Which is bad news for every guy.

Why isn't Galatians 6:7 about salvation? Have you actually read verses 7 and 8?

Galatians 6
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Do you not know corruption is damnation? Do you not know everlasting life is salvation?

 

[EmSw]

You're definitions are flawed. That's why you arn't making much sense.

Give me your definitions.

 

[EmSw]

Do you think people who understand their salvation can't be lost....Think about how much they can get away with?

I'm not one of those people, so I can't answer that question.