Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

[samir]

Why don't you think God saves the wicked?

Because scripture says they won't be saved.

"God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. (Romans 2:6-8, NIV)"

What did Jesus say?

"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. (John 5:28-29, NIV)"

For whom did Jesus come to save? The ungodly, and sinners.

Correct, but Jesus came to save them from their sins, not so they could continue to live in sin.

Jesus saves the ungodly, the sinners, and the wicked when they repent (turn from their wickedness to follow Christ).

2 Timothy 2:19
"Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

Acts 3:26
When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”

Acts 8:22
Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
Acts 24:12-16
14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Bottom line.....nothing can snatch you from Jesus' hands. Nothing.

It's what the bible says.

And yet one has to also read the context of that saying in Scripture.

You made a loose quote of Jesus in Scripture from John 10:28. The verse says,

"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me" (John 10:28).​

Yet, the verse before it says this,

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:27).​

Did you catch what it said?

Jesus, says this about His sheep. "they FOLLOW me."

Now, is someone who is not keeping the Commands of Christ truly following Jesus? No. That would be silly.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus also said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Jesus also essentially said if one looks upon a woman in lust their whole body can be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

This is pure legalism.

First, I am not sure how my quoting of Scripture is legalism. I am merely relaying to you what the Bible is saying. If you have a problem with the Bible, take it up with God, my friend.

Second, pure legalism is the religion of the Pharisees and Scribes. They believed in a type of salvation that was soley based on Law alone. Some of these laws were from God's Word and other laws were man made. The biggest problem with the Pharisees is that they left out the Savior in their plan of salvation. There was no real repentance from sin towards God. It was all pure legalism and no Savior.

Third, I believe Jesus is the one who initially and ultimately saves a person. In fact, Christ is the source of a person's salvation. So a believer must abide in Jesus in order to have eternal life. For 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. When a person abides in Christ, they will naturally bring forth fruits worthy of repentance. They will obey God as a result of the Lord working in them to do of His good will and pleasure. So a believer cannot boast and take all the credit for any good done in their life as a believer because it is Christ (God) who does the work in them (when the believer surrenders their life to the Lord and His Word). For Jesus said you can do nothing without me (John 15:5).

Your problem is this...if you fail to keep one of Jesus' commandments....you lose. Just imagine if you don't keep 3 or 4 of them.

Actually, I see the Eternal Security Proponent's problem as minimizing sin and not having any true or real standard of morality. There is no Law that is truly necessary to uphold so as to stay right with God. One can live in sin (have their cake) and get into God's Kingdom (and eat it), too. Jesus said His burden is easy and it is light. But it is still a burden or yoke. Jesus says if you love me, keep my Commandments (John 14:15). The Commandments of Jesus would be all of the Commands given to us in the New Testament. For Paul said that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). In addition, Paul essentially says that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Is not sinning itself an act of pride? Think. Everywhere you go in the New Testament, there are many warnings given to believers (not unbelievers because they have no spiritual understanding).

I mean, when you actually think about it, you have things backwards. You are saying that obedience to God's Commands as being a part of his Kingdom is more wrong than say sinning and doing evil and having a mere belief alone on Jesus. Yet, did not Jesus judge the Pharisees for their teaching the laws of God (when in reality they did not keep those laws themselves)?


....

 

[EmSw]

This is pure legalism.

Your problem is this...if you fail to keep one of Jesus' commandments....you lose. Just imagine if you don't keep 3 or 4 of them.

Everyone has a choice - legalism or lawlessness. Ever read anything about lawlessness?

Matthew 7:23
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Matthew 13:41
The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,

Matthew 23:28
Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

Matthew 24:12
And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

Romans 6:19
I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

Hebrews 1:9
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than your companions.”

1 John 3:4
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

What will it be, legalism or lawlessness? Either you follow the law or not. Choose wisely.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And the Eternal Security Proponent cannot get around saying they are not under any kind of law, either. For the name of their game is all about just having a belief alone so as to have eternal life. However, having a belief on Jesus is a Commandment (See 1 John 3:23). So are they under that Law or Command in 1 John 3:23 or not? If they are, then they are under some kind of Law. Which means they are legalistic when it comes to this particular Law in God's Word.


...

 

[EmSw]

And the Eternal Security Proponent cannot get around saying they are not under any kind of law, either. For the name of their game is all about just having a belief alone so as to have eternal life. However, having a belief on Jesus is a Commandment (See 1 John 3:23). So are they under that Law or Command in 1 John 3:23 or not? If they are, then they are under some kind of Law. Which means they are legalistic when it comes to this particular Law in God's Word. ...

In Romans, the book most lawless Christians take their belief against the law, is written:

Romans 13:8
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

James adds this:

James 1:25
But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, “you shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;

 

[-57]

I wouldn't call God's word legalism.



It doesn't say with perfection. If you love God you will choose to keep the commandments so any disobedience would be due to less then full knowledge or consent.

You shouldn't reject God's word just because you don't understand it.

So, now it becomes legalism with a loop hole.

 

[-57]

And the Eternal Security Proponent cannot get around saying they are not under any kind of law, either. For the name of their game is all about just having a belief alone so as to have eternal life. However, having a belief on Jesus is a Commandment (See 1 John 3:23). So are they under that Law or Command in 1 John 3:23 or not? If they are, then they are under some kind of Law. Which means they are legalistic when it comes to this particular Law in God's Word.


...

Your salvation isn't dependent on how well you keeep Jesus' commandments. You are not brought to salvation by WORKS nor retained in salvation by WORKS.

 

[-57]

First, I am not sure how my quoting of Scripture is legalism. I am merely relaying to you what the Bible is saying. If you have a problem with the Bible, take it up with God, my friend.

I have taken it up with God. God says STOP misquoting His bible Jason.

 

[-57]

Actually, I see the Eternal Security Proponent's problem as minimizing sin and not having any true or real standard of morality. There is no Law that is truly necessary to uphold so as to stay right with God. One can live in sin (have their cake) and get into God's Kingdom (and eat it), too. Jesus said His burden is easy and it is light. But it is still a burden or yoke. Jesus says if you love me, keep my Commandments (John 14:15). The Commandments of Jesus would be all of the Commands given to us in the New Testament. For Paul said that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). In addition, Paul essentially says that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Is not sinning itself an act of pride? Think. Everywhere you go in the New Testament, there are many warnings given to believers (not unbelievers because they have no spiritual understanding).

I mean, when you actually think about it, you have things backwards. You are saying that obedience to God's Commands as being a part of his Kingdom is more wrong than say sinning and doing evil and having a mere belief alone on Jesus. Yet, did not Jesus judge the Pharisees for their teaching the laws of God (when in reality they did not keep those laws themselves)?


....

If you want to think you can lose your salvation...go on believing that....

Your obedience to Jesus' commandments are for purely selfish reasons. Do you keep Jesus' commandments to glorify Christ? Nope...you keep them to prevent yourSELF from going to hell....or so you think.

You hope that after you die all your commandment following will be put onto a scale...and if it tips to the salvation side...your in.

You present a gospel that depends upon you, what you do, how good you are, self righteousness ......many call that a gospel of WORKS.

A TRUE christian will keep Jesus' commandments because they WANT to...not because they HAVE to.
Your theology teaches that if a christian fails to keep Jesus' commandments they go to hell....True theology teaches their sins have already been forgiven, imputed to Christ Jesus and if they fail to keep Jesus' commandments that sin was also paid for at the cross 2,000 years ago.

 

[-57]

Everyone has a choice - legalism or lawlessness. Ever read anything about lawlessness?

Matthew 7:23
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Matthew 13:41
The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,

Matthew 23:28
Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

Matthew 24:12
And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

Romans 6:19
I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

Hebrews 1:9
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than your companions.”

1 John 3:4
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

What will it be, legalism or lawlessness? Either you follow the law or not. Choose wisely.

I fail to see the point of that post.

 

[ZacharyB]

Jesus also taught that those He gives eternal life will NEVER perish.
John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

You always leave out verse 27, and I keep including it.
The blue is who Jesus is referring to ...
John 10:
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;
neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

FG2, do you hear Jesus' voice?
If you do, He knows you ...
meaning He has a personal relationship with you.
And those who follow Jesus obey His commands.

 

[ZacharyB]

There is absolutely no question about it ...
People are saved through their continuing FAITH in Jesus
that he died on the Cross at Calvary for their sins!

But, somehow there must be more to SAVING FAITH than the above.

We must also acknowledge (and come to grips with) such passages as ...
Romans 8:13-14
"For if you live according to the flesh you will die (eternal death);
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body,
you will live (eternal life).
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”

James says works is required to prove our faith is genuine.
But, I do not believe 8:13b above is referring to works.
IMO, 8:13b is referring to our reasonable service ...
Romans 12:1
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God,
that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God,
which is your reasonable service."

BTW, this echoes Paul's instruction in Romans 6 where he says ...
CHOOSE to be a slave of obedience,
CHOOSE to be a slave of righteousness,
CHOOSE to be a slave of God.
Please note that these Roman Christians were NOT being these things!
They were continuing to be slaves of sin!
That's why Paul reminded them 3 times in 8 verses ...
sin results in (eternal) death.

 

[-57]

There is absolutely no question about it ...
people are saved through their continuing FAITH in Jesus
that he died on the Cross at Calvary for their sins!

But, we must also acknowledge (and come to grips with) such passages as ...
Romans 8:13-14
"For if you live according to the flesh you will die (eternal death);
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body,
you will live (eternal life).
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”

James says works is required to prove our faith is genuine.
But, I do not believe 8:13b above is referring to works.
IMO, 8:13b is referring to our reasonable service ...
Romans 12:1
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God,
that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God,
which is your reasonable service."

It's possible for someone to lose their "faith" in Christ and remain saved.

 

[ZacharyB]

It's possible for someone to lose their "faith" in Christ and remain saved.

There are 15 NT verses which teach us (hopefully) that ...
One must endure in his/her faith until the end of physical life
to be given eternal life!
This one of the NT topics which proves that salvation is a process.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your salvation isn't dependent on how well you keeep Jesus' commandments. You are not brought to salvation by WORKS nor retained in salvation by WORKS.

Salvation is intially received by accepting Jesus Christ as one's Savior when they repent of their sins towards Him. Repenting of one's sins involves them admitting that they are a sinner and with them calling out to God for the forgiveness of their sins and desiring Jesus to save them from their sins. This prayer is done with the intention that they will not sin again (i.e. they will forsake their sin from now on). This will lead the believer to abide in Christ and allow Jesus to do the good work in their heart and lives. It is still the work of the Lord done thru the believer and not entirely the work of the believer alone. It is still primarily the work of the Lord. For Jesus said, without me you can do nothing (John 15:5). So there is no boasting in one's own work. However, you have to cooperate with the Lord. Even in coming to the faith for the first time, you had to respond to His call in some way. You did not do nothing in coming to God (Unless of course you are a Universal Salvationist). You had to do something so as to respond or cooperate with God (Which can be interpreted as action or a work on some level). You also believe you are not under any kind of Law salvation wise, either. But as I pointed out before, 1 John 3:23 tells us that to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is a Commandment. So if you are claiming to not be under any kind of law salvation wise, then you must believe that people are even saved even if they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, too. So this would mean you are Universal Salvationist.

In other words, unless you can explain 1 John 3:23, you really are not convincing me in any way that what you say is true with Scripture.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have taken it up with God.

Then why are you not explaining the verses I brought forth using the context, and by showing me cross references?
Why do you respond with the words "legalism" when I primarily quoted Scripture to you?

God says STOP misquoting His bible Jason.

I did not know that you speak for God. Do you receive messages or visions from Him?
See, the burden of proof is on you to show me what those verses are actually saying with Scripture (and by way of real world examples) instead of just repeating words of mere opinion.


...

 

[-57]

There are 15 NT verses which teach us (hopefully) that ...
One must endure in his/her faith until the end of physical life
to be given eternal life!
This one of the NT topics which proves that salvation is a process.

How can I say this....wrong...

You have no scripture that says that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you want to think you can lose your salvation...go on believing that....

Well, I didn't invent the Bible in what it says. God did. There are plenty of verses that you have to twist beyond recognition in order for you to NOT believe that a believer cannot fall away from the faith. Unless of course you believe saints are sinners like the wicked. But does not even the word "saint" tell you that sinning is not a part of what a "saint" even means? Do you not know that he that does righteousness is righteous? (See 1 John 3:7). Or do you just not want to hear that part of the Bible?

Your obedience to Jesus' commandments are for purely selfish reasons.

Was it selfish of you to respond to God's grace in the first place? How is selfish to respond to what He wants you to do? A Command is not a suggestion from God. It is called a Command for a reason. The Bible says the fear of the Lord, men depart from evil (Proverbs 16:6). James says we are to put away filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness (sin) which is able to save our souls (James 1:21). Also, when you obey God's Commands, they lead to be unselfish in behavior and thought. To love God and to love others are commands from God that lead you to think about others besides yourself.

Do you keep Jesus' commandments to glorify Christ? Nope...you keep them to prevent yourSELF from going to hell....or so you think.

But God gives these commands within His Word and says there are consequences if you do not keep them. Surely you have read Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, 1 John 3:15, and Revelation 21:8. Why would God appear to to threaten us with destruction if we behave in a wrong way just to quickly later say that is not what He means? It doesn't add up. Please explain these verses and other strong warnings by God that are similar.

Besides, does not life teach us that there are consequences to our actions?
You know, you reap what you sow? (Galatians 6:7).

You hope that after you die all your commandment following will be put onto a scale...and if it tips to the salvation side...your in.

Paul says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
The word "fear" is actually talking about "fear" because it is in context to the word "trembling." A person trembles if they are in fear.

You present a gospel that depends upon you, what you do, how good you are, self righteousness ......many call that a gospel of WORKS.

So you are saying that following the Commands in the New Testament from the Lord) is more wrong than say doing evil and having a belief on Jesus? Are you saying that God is going to reward the wicked and punish the righteous? Is that what you are saying?
Please take note that I do believe Jesus ulltimately saves us. If a believer sins, they do not get right with God by going out and doing another work. They get cleansed by God's grace by repenting of their sins (i.e. by confessing and forsaking sin) (See 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, Proverbs 28:13, Matthew 12:41 cf. Jonah 3:6-10).

A TRUE christian will keep Jesus' commandments because they WANT to...not because they HAVE to.

It's actually both. A true believer will keep God's Commands because they realize that there is no other way. Abiding in Christ means one will abide in God's good ways. To not abide in God's good ways is to abide in the devil's kingdom; And that path always leads to death and not life. A person who is a true believer will not only obey because they realize that there is punishment if they do not obey, but they also want to obey because they are a changed and new creature in Christ who desires to truly please God (Not on their own terms but on God's terms).

Your theology teaches that if a christian fails to keep Jesus' commandments they go to hell....

Actually, the Bible teaches that. Again, read Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, 1 John 3:15, and Revelation 21:8. Also see 1 Corinthians 14:37 and 1 Timothy 6:3-4.

True theology teaches their sins have already been forgiven, imputed to Christ Jesus and if they fail to keep Jesus' commandments that sin was also paid for at the cross 2,000 years ago.

If this was the case, then Jesus would have never scared anyone with hell fire for a person looking upon a woman in lust. He would have stressed that a person can lust after a woman and merely have a belief on Jesus so as to to miss out on hell fire. But is that what we see in Scripture? No. Not even close.


...

 

[-57]

Salvation is intially received by accepting Jesus Christ as one's Savior when they repent of their sins towards Him. Repenting of one's sins involves them admitting that they are a sinner and with them calling out to God for the forgiveness of their sins and desiring Jesus to save them from their sins. This prayer is done with the intention that they will not sin again (i.e. they will forsake their sin from now on). This will lead the believer to abide in Christ and allow Jesus to do the good work in their heart and lives. It is still the work of the Lord done thru the believer and not the entirely the work of the believer alone. It is still primarily the work of the Lord. For Jesus said, without me you can do nothing (John 15:5). So there is no boasting in one's own work. However, you have to cooperate with the Lord. Even in coming to the faith for the first time, you had to respond to His call in some way. You did not do nothing in coming to God (Unless of course you are a Unversal Salvationist). You had to do something so as to respond or cooperate with God (Which can be interpreted as action or a work on some level). You also believe you are not under any kind of Law salvation wise, either. But as I pointed out before, 1 John 3:23 tells us that to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is a Commandment. So if you are claiming to not be under any kind of law salvation wise, then you must believe that people are even saved even if they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, too. So this would mean you are Universal Salvationist.

In other words, unless you can explain 1 John 3:23, you really are not convincing me in any way that what you say is true with Scripture.


....

No I'm not a "Universal Salvationist".....I believe Gods chooses some people for grace and mercy while others are not and face justice.

I know my salvation isn't based upon me not sinning. All of my sins, and I will say it again...ALL...of my sins were imputed to Jesus Christ on the cross.
Should I live a sinful life? Of course not. Will I sin in the future? Yes. Has that sin already been forgiven? Yes.