Why did Jesus Leave?

[SteveB28]

Beyond.

Exactly.....you have no evidence, merely unfounded claims.

 

[amariselle]

Yes, and for the fourth or fifth time, while it is obviously you who changes your belief, YOU DONT CHOOSE TO DO IT!!

So when you said that others don't change my belief, that I change my own belief, you really meant that I don't change my belief at all. Well, that's as clear as mud. How can I change my belief, if I don't CHOOSE to change my belief? How am I able to act on my change in belief without choosing to? If my belief changes without my involvement or conscious choice, then I'm not changing anything. And yet, you clearly said I do change my belief, which naturally means I CHOOSE to do so.

At no point did I say as you claimed, that we can CHOOSE to change our belief. Withdraw your untrue claim.

No thank you, it wasn't an "untrue claim", so I will do no such thing. I even quoted you directly, and from there you proceeded to play some highly convoluted game of semantics, claiming that what you clearly said isn't what you said at all.

Again, follow the explanation.....

You can CHOOSE which evidence you examine - that is indeed a choice.

However, the impact that that evidence has upon your brain is NOT a result of choice! The reason/s that our friend Archaeopteryx no longer holds his former religious belief are not because he one day CHOSE to stop believing in gods. I presume that it was a result of him being exposed to evidence which caused his brain to begin to question those beliefs. Eventually, this led to a change in his beliefs. He didn't choose that change - it was a logical consequence of the effect of that evidence.

And yet, I have been "exposed" to the same "evidence". So, if our beliefs are not in any way a choice, why do I believe differently than he does?

Merely being exposed to certain evidence is no indication of what a person will or will not believe. What you DO with the evidence you're exposed to (whether you accept it or reject it) IS a choice.

Once again, I CHOSE to believe in God. That was my CHOICE.

Why do you think that so many fundamentalist creationists refuse to examine the evidence for evolution? They can see for themselves that people who do so, frequently change their opinions and beliefs about the nature of life on earth. So, they CHOOSE not to look at the evidence, for fear that those changes in their brains mentioned above don't occur.

But I have "examined the evidence" for evolution (referring to Darwinian evolution of course). It is full of more holes than Swiss cheese. I don't find it threatening to my faith in the least.

Withdraw your false claim.

Again, it wasn't a false claim, so it will not be withdrawn.

Just out of curiosity, do you think you can order people around just because you don't agree with them?

 

[ScottA]

Exactly.....you have no evidence, merely unfounded claims.

You not having access or capacity was a point I preferred not to detail - but since you press the point - that is the complete answer.

You show me evidence of your access and capacity to understand spiritual matters, and I will give you all the evidence you want. It all depends on you.

 

[amariselle]

<staff edit>

I am no victim, but apparently you'd like to think so, as you keep bringing it up. Quite interesting.

 

[devolved]

You not having access or capacity was a point I preferred not to detail - but since you press the point - that is the complete answer.

You show me evidence of your access and capacity to understand spiritual matters, and I will give you all the evidence you want. It all depends on you.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof

 

[Deidre32]

Why do you think I'm seeking you approval? It's a forum context... debates section . What do you expect to hapoen here?

lol ok

The nature of any debate is to present you arguments and provide refutation to reasoning you don't agree with.

I guess sometimes I feel strange for lack of a better word, 'arguing' faith matters. Faith is such a personal thing, it's a private thing often times, and it seems odd to have to defend why I believe in God, or why I have come to love Jesus.

I don't expect you to agree with me, neither I daid anything about superior intelligence.

Well, sometimes, you come across condescending, but if you say so, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Deidre32]

I am no victim, but apparently you'd like to think so, as you keep bringing it up. Quite interesting.

You are a victim of this debate! lol

 

[amariselle]

You are a victim of this debate! lol

He he, indeed.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Y'all realize that JESUS DID NOT LEAVE the unbelievers ? (after His resurrection, before His ascension)

 

[SteveB28]

You not having access or capacity was a point I preferred not to detail - but since you press the point - that is the complete answer.

You show me evidence of your access and capacity to understand spiritual matters, and I will give you all the evidence you want. It all depends on you.

Excuse me, just one minor detail......how does anyone show you their capacity "to understand spiritual matters" before it is established that spiritual matters actually exist!??

 

[SteveB28]

For the uninformed......

"The difference is that sexual orientation is determined almost entirely by biology, whereas religious disbelief is much more a combination of biology and environment. But in both cases, there's really no choice."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201109/disbelief-is-not-choice

"Religious belief is not a choice in that we cannot choose to believe a statement as the result of a conscious decision to belief or by the exercise of free will. This position is known as doxastic involuntarism. [1]"

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Religious_belief_is_not_a_choice

"No. When the influence of people’s reasons on their "beliefs" become stronger by evidences, their "beliefs" becomes less voluntary. Try voluntarily to believe something you now strongly disbelieve because there are strong evidences, say, that you are Barack Obama or that being stabbed will not injure you. You can’t. If there is strong evidence, there isn't a voluntary decision to "believe"."

https://www.quora.com/Is-the-belief-in-any-particular-religion-or-atheism-a-choice


"But the fatal flaw in this is the assumption that we can choose what we believe in the first place."

https://laicite.wordpress.com/2010/03/08/belief-is-not-a-choice/

"we form our beliefs on the basis of evidence, not on the basis of desire, i.e. that we cannot choose our beliefs. No matter how much I may want to believe that a given proposition is true, I cannot bring myself to do so simply by willing that I do so. Rather, in order to come to believe that the proposition is true I require some evidence for its truth."

http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/theistic-proofs/pascals-wager/we-cannot-choose-our-beliefs/

 

[amariselle]

<staff edit>

Have I expressed concerns? Absolutely. That does not justify your condescension and mockery.

 

[amariselle]

<staff edit>

Exactly, you prove my point once again.

 

[ScottA]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof

Try that with learning a new language, or getting a degree, or a job. "Burden of proof" - that's a good one!

 

[ScottA]

Y'all realize that JESUS DID NOT LEAVE the unbelievers ? (after His resurrection, before His ascension)

Not ever. Great point.

 

[ScottA]

Excuse me, just one minor detail......how does anyone show you their capacity "to understand spiritual matters" before it is established that spiritual matters actually exist!??

You're dating yourself...and you haven't learned for 2000 years:

"How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!” Romans 10:14-15

 

[Archaeopteryx]

In question one - you think that I would know the answer as to why random religious people make foolish choices that harm others? How can I know what motivates people to make choices that harm others? I suppose you can blame religion, but people sometimes make bad choices and use religion as their excuse.

What if they explicitly tell you that they are doing it for religious reasons? Also, that still leaves the other two posts unaddressed, along with the lingering question of how exactly I have misrepresented you.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Have I expressed concerns? Absolutely. That does not justify your condescension and mockery.

Actually, I think it is justifiable ridicule, and not too far from the truth.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I've shared it here, and I'm reluctant to share it anymore with skeptics. I had a witness to what I believed, as it happened at work. One of the occurrences. The first time, could be categorized as a feeling, but in reading the stories about how people have responded or reacted to the presence of the Holy Spirit, it fell in line with that. For me, it changed my life for the better. I had grown completely indifferent to faith, Jesus, etc...it wasn't a part of my life at all, at the time. I wasn't actively seeking God, and had given up on a deity existing, so this is why it rang true for me when it happened. More than a feeling. But, I've shared some details before, and just not willing to share with someone who no offense to you, isn't interested in just hearing it, but is rather more interested in telling me not to believe in God. If you choose to not believe, that is your choice. But, you should let others have their choices, too.

I don't think anyone is explicitly telling you not to believe in God, though that seems to be what you're gleaning from the conversation. They are asking you about your experiences and claims, which is not unusual for a philosophy forum. As I said to stevenfrancis earlier:

I don't doubt your sincerity, or the sincerity of any believer when they say that they have had a religious experience that, in their mind, is interpreted as a glimpsing of certain divine truths. Such experiences are not uncommon, as you pointed out. What interests me (and most other skeptics of religion) is whether the supposed divine wisdom gleaned from such experiences is indeed wisdom and whether it genuinely originated from something divine.

 

[SteveB28]

You're dating yourself...and you haven't learned for 2000 years:

"How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!” Romans 10:14-15

Again, these are merely the claims of other men, like you.

Claims are not evidence. Where is the EVIDENCE that a spiritual world exists?

Not the claims by men that it exists....the EVIDENCE that it does!