Why did Jesus Leave?

[amariselle]

You claimed that I said that we can "choose to change our beliefs". Show me where I said that, or admit that you were uttering a mistruth.

Alright, this is what you said:

But they can't change your beliefs. YOU do that!

You clearly said I can change my beliefs.

 

[amariselle]

I didn't say that there are no exceptions, but exceptions validate the rule of thumb, these don't disprove the rule of thumb. These are called exceptions for a reason.

Again, a culture isn't a monolithic entity. You will have pockets of micro-culture that follow entirely different paradigm.

Actually, Christians dealing with persecution is far from an "exception."

 

[devolved]

As I said, for true indoctrination to occur, a person can only be exposed to one viewpoint (or belief) and taught that they should never consider any others

Doesn't Bible teach that?

 

[amariselle]

Doesn't Bible teach that?

Does the Bible teach that we should live in a bubble, cut off from all other beliefs? Absolutely not.

 

[devolved]

Actually, Christians dealing with persecution is far from an "exception."

These are exceptions in context of that cultural belief. That's the point. That's the very reasons they are persecuted, and that's the very reason why Christians persecute other people in context of their cultural beliefs.

 

[amariselle]

These are exceptions in context of that cultural belief. That's the point. That's the very reasons they are persecuted, and that's the very reason why Christians persecute other people in context of their cultural beliefs.

I think there's more going on than that, but that is a topic for another thread perhaps.

 

[Deidre32]

Well, true Christian faith cannot exist apart from the Bible (the word of God) but just because I read the Bible, does not mean I'm "indoctrinated." As I said, for true indoctrination to occur, a person can only be exposed to one viewpoint (or belief) and taught that they should never consider any others. I've read many many secular books as well as the Bible, and as I also said, the majority of what I've been exposed to in my life has been secular, not Christian. So how is it that I've been "indoctrinated" into the Christian faith?

This is a great post. It's always assumed that all religious people, not just Christians have been 'indoctrinated.' I'll say that I was indoctrinated as a child into Catholicism, and that is where the term comes into play. Not until I left Christianity, did I see that I was indoctrinated. Returning to faith wasn't about me, though...it was about God leading me back. That's the beauty of being born again, and being able to choose what you believe.

 

[devolved]

Does the Bible teach that we should live in a bubble, cut off from all other beliefs? Absolutely not.

It depends which epoch you are talking about. During the OT epoch.... absolutely. In fact, God is fairly brutal to dissidents who don't measure up or doing something as minor as picking up the sticks for fire.

In the NT, things have clearly loosened up, but it's not the same idea as open educational experience in which people are encouraged to know about various faiths and ideas. In fact, some ideas are clearly a "no no" and shouldn't even be considered.

Hence, yes. In many ways it does.

 

[devolved]

Well, it's understandable that a non-believer would think that a believer is using faulty logic in order to 'believe' in a deity's existence. Is this what you mean?

Well, it's actually demonstrably faulty logic, switching semantic meaning, correlating feelings and events based on a hunch without clear way to demonstrate the veracity... resorting to arguments from ignorance.

Again, I'm not saying all of this because I don't like you or can't sympathize with your thought process. I've been there for many years. I'm saying it because these kind of things are demonstrably unreliable means of describing reality at best, and false at worst.

 

[amariselle]

It depends which epoch you are talking about. During the OT epoch.... absolutely. In fact, God is fairly brutal to dissidents who don't measure up or doing something as minor as picking up the sticks for fire.

In the NT, things have clearly loosened up, but it's not the same idea as open educational experience in which people are encouraged to know about various faiths and ideas. In fact, some ideas are clearly a "no no" and shouldn't even be considered.

Hence, yes. In many ways it does.

If you want to put your own interpretation on it, so be it.

 

[amariselle]

Well, it's actually demonstrably faulty logic, switching semantic meaning, correlating feelings and events based on a hunch without clear way to demonstrate the veracity... resorting to arguments from ignorance.

Again, I'm not saying all of this because I don't like you or can't sympathize with your thought process. I've been there for many years. I'm saying it because these kind of things are demonstrably unreliable means of describing reality at best, and false at worst.

Again, it's quite interesting that non-Christians (or non-religious) people automatically assume that Christians are less intelligent because of their beliefs.

 

[devolved]

Again, it's quite interesting that non-Christians (or non-religious) people automatically assume that Christians are less intelligent because of their beliefs.

I've been Christian for most of my life. I don't need to assume . Once I recognized where my reasoning was faulty... I was honest enough about it, and devolved into Christian Realism, and then I didn't really see a difference between that and Atheism in a agnostic sense.

I could be wrong. But all I can do is to provide reasins as to why I don't think so.

 

[amariselle]

I've been Christian for most of my life. I don't need to assume . Once I recognized where my reasoning was faulty... I was honest enough about it, and devolved into Christian Realism, and then I didn't really see a difference between that and Atheism in a agnostic sense.

I could be wrong. But all I can do is to provide reasins as to why I don't think so.

Fair enough. Obviously I don't agree with you however. I too have been a Christian for most of my life, and I don't think I'm any less intelligent than you because of that.

 

[Deidre32]

Well, it's actually demonstrably faulty logic, switching semantic meaning, correlating feelings and events based on a hunch without clear way to demonstrate the veracity... resorting to arguments from ignorance.

Again, I'm not saying all of this because I don't like you or can't sympathize with your thought process. I've been there for many years. I'm saying it because these kind of things are demonstrably unreliable means of describing reality at best, and false at worst.

Here we go again...

Okay...I'm not seeking your approval, brah.

That said, you seem to think that your opinion transcends all of us simpletons so...I will bow out of this discussion. Be well.

 

[Deidre32]

Again, it's quite interesting that non-Christians (or non-religious) people automatically assume that Christians are less intelligent because of their beliefs.

lol true

 

[devolved]

Here we go again...

Okay...I'm not seeking your approval, brah.

That said, you seem to think that your opinion transcends all of us simpletons so...I will bow out of this discussion. Be well.

Why do you think I'm seeking you approval? It's a forum context... debates section . What do you expect to hapoen here?

The nature of any debate is to present you arguments and provide refutation to reasoning you don't agree with.

I don't expect you to agree with me, neither I daid anything about superior intelligence.

 

[SteveB28]

Alright, this is what you said:



You clearly said I can change my beliefs.

Yes, and for the fourth or fifth time, while it is obviously you who changes your belief, YOU DONT CHOOSE TO DO IT!! At no point did I say as you claimed, that we can CHOOSE to change our belief. Withdraw your untrue claim.

Again, follow the explanation.....

You can CHOOSE which evidence you examine - that is indeed a choice.

However, the impact that that evidence has upon your brain is NOT a result of choice! The reason/s that our friend Archaeopteryx no longer holds his former religious belief are not because he one day CHOSE to stop believing in gods. I presume that it was a result of him being exposed to evidence which caused his brain to begin to question those beliefs. Eventually, this led to a change in his beliefs. He didn't choose that change - it was a logical consequence of the effect of that evidence.

Why do you think that so many fundamentalist creationists refuse to examine the evidence for evolution? They can see for themselves that people who do so, frequently change their opinions and beliefs about the nature of life on earth. So, they CHOOSE not to look at the evidence, for fear that those changes in their brains mentioned above don't occur.

Withdraw your false claim.

 

[ScottA]

How would Holy Spirit do the conversion? Does it send electrical impulses inside people's brain? Because such would be the implication? How does that work? I mean, people would have to feel or think something. Our thoughts and feelings are derived from our brain physiology.

How do you think that works?

Whenever Christian say something like that, it seems to be detached from the reality of our nervous system.

That is somewhat correct, it is detached from our nervous system: There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body.

There is more to the spirit than brain activity, more than conscious and subconscious. The two may share one mind, but not one brain. The brain is organic and carnal.

 

[SteveB28]

That is somewhat correct, it is detached from our nervous system: There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body.

There is more to the spirit than brain activity, more than conscious and subconscious. The two may share one mind, but not one brain. The brain is organic and carnal.

Totally unfounded claims. Where is your evidence for this "spiritual body"?

 

[ScottA]

Totally unfounded claims. Where is your evidence for this "spiritual body"?

Beyond.