Why did Jesus Leave?

[amariselle]

Actually, given that they are your claims, yes, you have the burden of proof for them.

No, I have a responsibility to give a reason for the hope I have, and I have done so and will continue to do so. When someone asks me HONEST questions about my faith, I will answer to the best of my ability.

It is NOT my responsibility to make anyone else accept what I say or to ensure that they find my answers "satisfactory." Everyone has a choice and I cannot make that choice for them, nor do I wish to. God Himself doesn't make that choice for us.

 

[amariselle]

You can't do it, which demonstrates my point.

But I did. I already told you, at one point I DID choose to believe in unicorns, I have since chosen to reject that belief. And just because I have no desire to take that belief up again, doesn't mean that my beliefs aren't a choice, they are.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, I have a responsibility to give a reason for the hope I have, and I have done so and will continue to do so. When someone asks me HONEST questions about my faith, I will answer to the best of my ability.

It is NOT my responsibility to make anyone else accept what I say or to ensure that they find my answers "satisfactory." Everyone has a choice and I cannot make that choice for them, nor do I wish to. God Himself doesn't make that choice for us.

Already addressed this:

Yes, and I explained why your answers didn't satisfy the question or why they raised further questions. You ignored my explanations or gave the meagre rebuttal of "that's just your opinion, man." In other words, it seems as though you don't care about the merit of your answers, so long as you are able to say that you gave an answer.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

But I did. I already told you, at one point I DID choose to believe in unicorns, I have since chosen to reject that belief. And just because I have no desire to take that belief up again, doesn't mean that my beliefs aren't a choice, they are.

Well, then go ahead and show us. Show us that you can choose to believe that there is a unicorn prancing in your backyard right now. Why can't you do that?

 

[amariselle]

You are switching the semantics here, as you do it quite often. Beliefs are not the same as people. You can't damage a belief. That's what you originally said - people are damaging faith (a belief). You can't damage a belief. You can have an effect that alters a belief that may has result in personal actions that will damage something... but it's not a consequences of any single belief. The network of belief are extremely complex today. There a plenty of people who are bigots and racists, yet their beliefs are not damaging to society because these are constrained by other sets of beliefs.

Really? You think that "bigots" and "racists" aren't damaging to society? Do you think their words don't hurt anyone? Needless to say I completely disagree. Again, words are VERY powerful. Just ask someone who has been bullied, people have even killed themselves because of hurtful words spoken to and about them.

How so? If they are outside of physical and material realm... that means that you have to imagine them, right? It's obviously not something that you can see. So, how do you know that these things exist, if they are outside of material and physical realm and you have to imagine how they work?

Have you considered that there are other kinds of evidence? (Other than physical and material evidence)

 

[amariselle]

Well, then go ahead and show us. Show us that you can choose to believe that there is a unicorn prancing in your backyard right now. Why can't you do that?

I will not play games. Stop trying to force a certain belief just to prove your point. I chose to believe it once, and I long ago rejected that belief. How many times do I have to tell you I made my choice? It was my right to do so.

You will get absolutely nowhere with this ultimatum.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I will not play games. Stop trying to force a certain belief just to prove your point. I chose to believe it once, and I long ago rejected that belief. How many times do I have to tell you I made my choice? It was my right to do so.

You will get absolutely nowhere with this ultimatum.

What ultimatum? The fact that you clearly cannot choose demonstrates the very point I've been arguing all along.

 

[amariselle]

I'm not asking about what Christians think in general. I'm asking you what you think. In what way is that rhetorical? I can't read your mind. I don't know what your thoughts are regarding faith. I have my suspicions though. For instance, I suspect that you consider faith to be a virtue. But if I assume that is your position when it isn't then you'd accuse me of creating a strawman. The entire point of asking is to avoid a situation in which you accuse me of misrepresenting your views. Instead of simply outlining what you think on that matter, you've been persistently evasive.

Actually, I chose to give you credit for knowing the answer already (since you were a Christian once by your own admission).

 

[toLiJC]

I think it's a valid question from a position of any given skeptic.

I really don't buy the oversimplified answers like "If he didn't leave then Holy Spirit wouldn't come", Or "He left because the mission to spread the Gospel had to be fulfilled", or to "Prepare a place", again neither make a lot of sense in a scope what Christianity is and what it expects.

The question is whether this world is better if Jesus is there for all to be able to experience apart from some "feeling" or a book narrative? It wouldn't make Christianity to be so doubtable. Every Thomas out there could visit a 2000 year old dude with holes in his hands and believe.

Why leave without a trace, and except leave the world with a story and a promise of hope.

It seems like a good excuse to mask the reason as to why Jesus is not here. "Well, he was here, but you've missed him by about 2000 years, BUT he's coming back soon... so just wait and read this book about him".

Perhaps there are other reasonable explanations, but what would these be? What do you think?

Jesus is the Lord Himself, and in principle His place is in "heaven" to reign over all as an Intercessor/Mediator before God

Blessings

 

[amariselle]

What ultimatum? The fact that you clearly cannot choose demonstrates the very point I've been arguing all along.

The "Prove it" ultimatum. My faith is not a game to me. You have no idea whatsoever about what my life has been like and what I have gone through. You have no idea why and how I have chosen to believe in God.

Trying to force me to believe in unicorns to somehow prove your point is highly disrespectful. I refuse to play your games, and I've already explained why, repeatedly.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Actually, I chose to give you credit for knowing the answer already (since you were a Christian once by your own admission).

So you want me to just assume that what I previously thought about faith is what you must also think?

 

[amariselle]

So you want me to just assume that what I previously thought about faith is what you must also think?

No, I simply thought you understood the Christian perspective on what losing faith in God means. I apologize if I was wrong to think so.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The "Prove it" ultimatum. My faith is not a game to me.

You've persistently dodged questions about why it would be terrible for faith to erode, and yet I'm accused of playing games. Come on...

Trying to force me to believe in unicorns to somehow prove your point is highly disrespectful. I refuse to play your games, and I've already explained why, repeatedly.

Who is forcing you? You claimed that such a choice was open to you.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, I simply thought you understood the Christian perspective on what losing faith in God means. I apologize if I was wrong to think so.

Yeah, you aren't playing games at all...

So are you going to answer the question or keep dodging, like you have for pages now?

 

[devolved]

Really? You think that "bigots" and "racists" aren't damaging to society? Do you think their words don't hurt anyone? Needless to say I completely disagree. Again, words are VERY powerful. Just ask someone who has been bullied, people have even killed themselves because of hurtful words spoken to and about them.

That's not what I said. I said that there are plenty of bigots and racists that don't act out of their beliefs, because they have other constraining sets of beliefs.

Human beings are not as simple as a single word description. There are bigoted and racist beliefs in virtually every one of us. Hence, I don't see the need to oversimplify this issue. We are not who you (seem to) think we are. We are very complex beings that are driven by both conscious and subconscious expressions of neural networks, which is what beliefs are in reality. Majority of beliefs are subconscious expression of neural networks that dictate conscious actions. It's not something that you keep in your conscious mind every day of your life. Beliefs are neural shortcuts that help us navigate reality.

When you don't follow neurophysiology, you end up living in a conceptual reality of "belief" that has no analogous function in terms of how our brain actually functions. Thus it's difficult to have conversation when someone doesn't understand as to how exactly what they are talking about translates into our physiological function.

Have you considered that there are other kinds of evidence? (Other than physical and material evidence)

How would I know that it's there? And how would I know that it's not physical? How can you know that?

If it's not something that I can know, or can tell a difference between physical evidence and non-physical one... then it doesn't matter as far as my perception goes.

I can claim all sorts of imaginary concepts. For example, in the other thread I've made a hypothetical claim that I have magical powers and ability to manifest joy in other people. Do you have joy in your life? Well, that's a testament to my magical powers. How do I do it? By magical non-physical means.

Given the claim above, how can you know whether it's true or not when you accept that non-physical evidence is plausible? After all, the joy you experience from time to time IS as testament to my magical powers. Why wouldn't you accept that as evidence?

 

[amariselle]

That's not what I said. I said that there are plenty of bigots and racists that don't act out of their beliefs, because they have other constraining sets of beliefs.

And yet, even if they don't act on their beliefs, their words still do untold damage.

Human beings are not as simple as a single word description. There are bigoted and racist beliefs in virtually every one of us. Hence, I don't see the need to oversimplify this issue. We are not who you think we are. We are very complex beings that are driven by both conscious and subconscious expressions of neural networks, which is what beliefs are in reality.

Actually I don't think human beings are simple at all, and I never said they were.

Majority of beliefs are subconscious expression of neural networks that dictate conscious actions. It's not something that you keep in your conscious mind every day of your life. Beliefs are neural shortcuts that help us navigate reality.

My belief in God is everything to me. It is very much something I keep in my conscious mind every day of my life.

When you don't follow neurophysiology, you end up living in a conceptual reality of "belief" that has no analogous function in terms of how our brain actually functions. Thus it's difficult to have conversation when someone doesn't understand as to how exactly what they are talking about translates into our physiological function.

What are you getting at?

How would I know that it's there? And how would I know that it's not physical? How can you know that?

If it's not something that I can know, or can tell a difference between physical evidence and non-physical one... then it doesn't matter as far as my perception goes.

And that's fine. If it doesn't matter to you, then it doesn't. That does not mean, however, that it doesn't or shouldn't matter to me and every other Christian.

I can claim all sorts of imaginary concepts. For example, in the other thread I've made a hypothetical claim that I have magical powers and ability to manifest joy in other people. Do you have joy in your life? Well, that's a testament to my magical powers. How do I do it? By magical non-physical means.

By all means, you have every right to continue making such claims. However, you have not presented me with evidence comparative to that which I find in the Holy Bible and my relationship with my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. And, as my beliefs are a choice, I choose not to believe you.

Given the claim above, how can you know whether it's true or not when you accept that non-physical evidence is plausible? After all, the joy you experience from time to time IS as testament to my magical powers. Why wouldn't you accept that as evidence?

Because, as I said, such "evidence", is not sufficiently backed up. (As my faith in God is) Therefore, I choose to reject your claim.

 

[amariselle]

Yeah, you aren't playing games at all...

So are you going to answer the question or keep dodging, like you have for pages now?

That's right, I'm not playing games.

 

[amariselle]

You've persistently dodged questions about why it would be terrible for faith to erode, and yet I'm accused of playing games. Come on...

Who is forcing you? You claimed that such a choice was open to you.

You gave me an ultimatum to "Prove it" by believing something (a unicorn) exists. You chose what you want me to believe, and you told me to believe it just to prove your point.

As such, you are trying to choose for me what I should or shouldn't believe. Not going to work, my beliefs are not a game, they are very serious to me.

And I am done with comparing my belief in God to belief in a unicorn.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You gave me an ultimatum to "Prove it" by believing something (a unicorn) exists. You chose what you want me to believe, and you told me to believe it just to prove your point.

As such, you are trying to choose for me what I should or shouldn't believe. Not going to work, my beliefs are not a game, they are very serious to me.

And I am done with comparing my belief in God to belief in a unicorn.

You do realise that you are just demonstrating my point, right?

"Oh, I could choose to, but I just don't wanna..."

 

[Archaeopteryx]

That's right, I'm not playing games.

Except you are. LOL. You could just answer the question. Instead you evade and come up with excuses.