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Atheism vs Theism confusion

CodyFaith

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Not so fast buddy :p

Consider this:

A monotheist believes in 1 God.
A polytheist believes in more than 1 God.
An atheist believes in 0 God.

I mean, it's Latin or Greek (not sure which), it's how we construct terms, especially defining terms.
It's how anyone anywhere at any time in history (or future) can understand something.

Anyway, matrix music... :D
I thought a-
meant lack or without, or something like that I remember reading.

Just wikipedia'd, The term 'atheism' originated from the Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "without god(s)", used as a pejorative term applied to those thought to reject the gods worshiped by the larger society.

So "a" does mean without, and theism being the belief in God, atheism is without the belief in God. If you are to take it just from that anyway.
I was without the belief in God, although was open to the possibility of there being a God, so I was an agnostic atheist.
 
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Hieronymus

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I thought a-
meant lack or without, or something like that I remember reading.

Just wikipedia'd, The term 'atheism' originated from the Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "without god(s)", used as a pejorative term applied to those thought to reject the gods worshiped by the larger society.

So "a" does mean without, and theism being the belief in God, atheism is without the belief in God. If you are to take it just from that anyway.
I was without the belief in God, although was open to the possibility of there being a God, so I was an agnostic atheist.
So how many Gods are there without God?
I think that's zero. :)
It's "without God - ism", not "without - theism".
Because it's "atheos - ism".
The "a" says something about "theos", not about the "ism".

You can also see here in the comments people who i estimate older than you and TS use it in the same way i do (me being a grey haired 40+ guy), so it seems the meaning in daily use has shifted over time, causing confusion.
 
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HitchSlap

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Agnosticism speaks to knowledge; as in, I don't know a god/s exists.

Atheism speaks to belief; as in, theists haven't met their burden of proof, therefore, I'm unconvinced a god/s exist.

It is within this context, that I consider myself an agnostic atheist.
 
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Soyeong

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Ok, I admit that the title is a bit of a "click bate" for both ends, but here it goes.

Browsing through some popular threads here, it seems like there's a general confusion as to what Atheism really is, and how that label tends to take on a "form" that shouldn't be ascribed to Atheism.

First of all, it should be noted that labels like Christian, Atheist, Republican, Democrat tend to be more pragmatic than carry some full scope of ontology of reality that these labels supposed to describe. These are very different from a more precise labels like "human", etc.

Thus, it's very easy to get lost in arguments against your own perception of the label as to what that label means to a person who takes it on as a description. In such, I'm not sure whether such labels are useful as shortcuts, or these create problematic perception.

We generally use them, because we are either "lazy" to repeat a list of what we believe, or because we find solace in some form of "righteous identity".

But, in short time I've spent on this forum, I've already had to clarify several times that "Atheism" is not a charge that God doesn't exist, at least it's not necessarily the case. In scope of our human experience, it tends to be a default position of not knowing and not believing.

From there we can progress into:

1) Staying in the default - not knowing and not believing that a God exists
2) Not knowing and believing that God exists
3) Claiming to know and by extension believing that God exists
4) Claiming to know and by extension not believing that God exists

So, there are a variety of positions. Some refuse to believe without evidence. Some believe without evidence.

But generally, #1 is labeled as "Agnosticism" and not Atheism, and here where confusion lies. Agnosticism is merely a claim of lack of knowledge through some form of experience or evidence. Both Atheists and theists have an overlap of not knowing.

IMO, the more general form of Atheism is anyone's default position of #1 - not knowing and not believing by extension. There are people who attempt to convince people both successfully and unsuccessfully to shift to a position of believe, but if they do shift to theism based on claims alone... that would make them Agnostic Theists.

The reason why I'm writing this is primarily because a lot of Christians associate Atheism as being closed to possibility of God, and view atheists on this board as trolls. That can be the case, but generally not IMO. There are cynics on either side of the spectrum and it's not inherent to either Christians or theists. I think people like myself are interested following up with whatever innovative evidence there may be for existence of supernatural and God, and such evidence and line of reasoning can come from individuals.

I hope that all of us would be interested to know if we indeed mistaking. I hope that would be true for either side of this issue. But, I don't think it's helpful to assume what a person believes or doesn't solely based on a one word label.

An atheist has historically been someone who holds the belief that there is no God, and all this is just a poor attempt to redefine atheism as the default position in order to avoid shouldering the burden of proof. Holding any position other than the agnostic position of not knowing whether something is true requires evidence and thus shouldering burden of proof. Atheism is the negation of theism, so it is the equal and opposite position of theism, which is the belief that God exists, so it is the belief that God does not exist. It other words, the negation of 1 is -1, not 0, but you are trying to redefine atheism as the null position. When you redefine a position purely in terms of what it does not believe, then you quickly run to absurdities, such as babies and rocks, who also lack a belief, or with redefining aatheism as a lack of a lack of a belief in the existence of God, thus also escaping shouldering the burden of proof. The things that I know and the things that I believe are both based off of evidence, so redefining terms to make it about your confidence level rather than the actual positive position that you hold is a slight of hand that is entirely unhelpful and only muddles the waters. Every position other than agnosticism requires evidence, otherwise you would have no way of moving from agnosticism, so if you hold a position about whether or not God exists, then you should be willing to to provide evidence for it regardless of your confidence level, and if you don't know, then you don't have to provide evidence, but don't get into any of this nonsense about holding a position on something with having any evidence that it is true.
 
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HitchSlap

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An atheist has historically been someone who holds the belief that there is no God, and all this is just a poor attempt to redefine atheism as the default position in order to avoid shouldering the burden of proof. Holding any position other than the agnostic position of not knowing whether something is true requires evidence and thus shouldering burden of proof. Atheism is the negation of theism, so it is the equal and opposite position of theism, which is the belief that God exists, so it is the belief that God does not exist. It other words, the negation of 1 is -1, not 0, but you are trying to redefine atheism as the null position. When you redefine a position purely in terms of what it does not believe, then you quickly run to absurdities, such as babies and rocks, who also lack a belief, or with redefining aatheism as a lack of a lack of a belief in the existence of God, thus also escaping shouldering the burden of proof. The things that I know and the things that I believe are both based off of evidence, so redefining terms to make it about your confidence level rather than the actual positive position that you hold is a slight of hand that is entirely unhelpful and only muddles the waters. Every position other than agnosticism requires evidence, otherwise you would have no way of moving from agnosticism, so if you hold a position about whether or not God exists, then you should be willing to to provide evidence for it regardless of your confidence level, and if you don't know, then you don't have to provide evidence, but don't get into any of this nonsense about holding a position on something with having any evidence that it is true.
Atheism is the null position.
 
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HitchSlap

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Yes, I know you'd like to think that, but atheist is against another position, so it can not be the null position by definition.
I'm not "against" anything. Would you call someone that doesn't collect stamps "against" someone that does?

I simply don't believe your claim that a god/s exist. The null hypothesis. If you think you have a case, then prove it.
 
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Soyeong

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I'm not "against" anything. Would you call someone that doesn't collect stamps "against" someone that does?

I simply don't believe your claim that a god/s exist. The null hypothesis. If you think you have a case, then prove it.

Atheism is the negation of theism, so they are inherently against each other. You don't have to be against anything, but then again, you don't have to incorrectly identify as an atheist. Someone who doesn't collect stamps is not the negation of someone who collects stamps. If don't believe that God exists and you don't believe that God doesn't exist, then you don't know whether or not God exists, and you have not moved from agnosticism, which is the only null position. The moment you take any other position, such as atheism, then you are not longer at the null position.
 
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HitchSlap

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Atheism is the negation of theism, so they are inherently against each other. You don't have to be against anything, but then again, you don't have to incorrectly identify as an atheist. Someone who doesn't collect stamps is not the negation of someone who collects stamps. If don't believe that God exists and you don't believe that God doesn't exist, then you don't know whether or not God exists, and you have not moved from agnosticism, which is the only null position. The moment you take any other position, such as atheism, then you are not longer at the null position.
Word salad.
 
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Davian

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The rub, as I see it, is the great and opposing difference between the two worlds.

"Evidence" for instance, is not defined the same - nor should it, or could it be. They are two different worlds, after all. If we could come together on that one fact alone...it would be huge, a leap of progress. So, we need to include the misdefined use of the word "evidence" in your list of labels. Example: Have Christians not been clear that in order to have access to the proofs or evidences of our witness - that you must literally be born again first? Indeed, we have been clear. And so, what is left is just talk, which is not acceptable, because, understandably, it's not evidence.
An ideal position to take for those that lack evidence for their assertions.
So, then, where does the shortcoming fall - to those who extend their hand, or to those who refuse it?
The shortcoming lies with you. I don't refuse your offer; I find it to be incoherent.
 
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Davian

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Words have meanings, you see.
Words are defined by how we use them.
Rejecting theism is indeed atheism, because atheists believe God does not exists,<snip>
In this statement, you have allowed the [hypothetical] atheist to define the "God" that you believe in.

Does this work for you?
 
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Hieronymus

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I did read the damn topic. It's why I said you were dishonest with your definition.

Atheism is the null position. You claim God/s exist, prove it.
You did not read (or comprehend) the topic when you say that.
Goodbye.
 
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