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Where did the laws of nature come from?

stevevw

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What "original genetic makeup"?
The genetic makeup that you or I and any living creature has that is deemed to be functional and fit. The more mutational changes to this the less fit and sicker we become. So when our genetics were being copied any mistakes were rectified to ensure everything was kept to the proper genetic codes that were needed to produce fit and health life. Any mutational changes to that normally mean we become sick and diseased.

Some say that the genetic makeup for life was better in the past and didn't have so much buildups of mutations in it. We are gradually accumulating mutational errors and therefore becoming less fit as time goes by. Certainly there are many species dying out and people are getting all sorts of illnesses, viral diseases and other types of maladies.
 
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Ophiolite

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The genetic makeup that you or I and any living creature has that is deemed to be functional and fit. The more mutational changes to this the less fit and sicker we become. So when our genetics were being copied any mistakes were rectified to ensure everything was kept to the proper genetic codes that were needed to produce fit and health life. Any mutational changes to that normally mean we become sick and diseased.
My comment here is not addressed to SteveW, but to any reader of this thread with an open mind. If you wish to determine the truth or falsehood of the emboldened assertion then consult any textbook on genetics. You will find that the assertion is false. Of course one can imagine that tens of thousands of scientists, including atheists, agnostics, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Moslems and others, have decided to manipulate the data and engage in a massive conspiracy that has been maintained for half a century and more. Or one can accept that the data clearly indicate that most mutations are neutral, some are deleterious and some are beneficial - and which is which often depends on the environment in which they are expressed. The choice of which view you accept (accept, not believe) is up to you.
 
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stevevw

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My comment here is not addressed to SteveW, but to any reader of this thread with an open mind. If you wish to determine the truth or falsehood of the emboldened assertion then consult any textbook on genetics. You will find that the assertion is false. Of course one can imagine that tens of thousands of scientists, including atheists, agnostics, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Moslems and others, have decided to manipulate the data and engage in a massive conspiracy that has been maintained for half a century and more. Or one can accept that the data clearly indicate that most mutations are neutral, some are deleterious and some are beneficial - and which is which often depends on the environment in which they are expressed. The choice of which view you accept (accept, not believe) is up to you.
So if DNA have this incredible mechanism to repair cells so that it can rectify the errors made in copying how are they not a mistake and something that would contribute to the cell not performing at its optimal best. The fact that the DNA has this error rectifying mechanism that will detect even the smallest mistake in one letter instruction for building proteins shows how sensitive the process is in needing to get things right. It doesn't make sense that you can say that a mistake in this copying process of what was already good and needed is beneficial or even neutral. The fact they call it neutral isn't because its really neutral. Its because the error is so small that it has no effect on its own. But when accumulated these small errors will have an effect. Even the so called beneficial mutations will have a cost to fitness when added together.

Diminishing Returns Epistasis Among Beneficial Mutations Decelerates Adaptation
These results provide the first evidence that patterns of epistasis may differ for within-and between-gene interactions during adaptation and that diminishing returns epistasis contributes to the consistent observation of decelerating fitness gains during adaptation.

The thing is any mutation is an error because it has changed what was already working and needed to be copied and passed on. To think that an error in the copying of what is suppose to be already good is the basis for all the amazing complexity and variety we see in life that has ever existed in the past and living today seems hard to believe. Its like taking 1000s of steps backwards to take one step forward.

Here is an educational site which explains what mutations do and the copying and rectifying process and as far as I can see there is no mention of mutations being positive or even neutral.

A mutation alters the gene message so that it no longer sends the correct information to the cells

It is important that the correct gene message is read in order for the correct protein to be built.

If the sequence of DNA letters in a gene is not able to be read in the correct way, the protein:
* May not be produced in the right amount
* May be produced in a form that will not function
* Is not produced at all.

TYPES OF MUTATIONS
a) Spelling changes in the code
Changing the spelling of a word in the message by substituting one letter with another is called a point mutation
DNA changes that cause a different amino acid to be included in the protein are called missense changes.
DNA changes that cause an early stop message in the protein are called nonsense changes.
b) Deletion of a code word
A mutation can also occur when part of the gene is ‘deleted’ from the genetic code. If this occurs, the message will be too short and therefore will not make the correct protein.
c) Insertion of a code word
An insertion mutation occurs when extra DNA is ‘inserted’ in to the genetic code. If this occurs, the message will be too long and therefore will not make the correct gene product or protein.
d) Repeated code words
Another type of gene mutation is called a trinucleotide repeat where certain code words are repeated in a sequence more often than usual.
http://www.genetics.edu.au/Publications-and-Resources/Genetics-Fact-Sheets/FactSheetMutations

Mutations take place at the base pair level. A base pair here or there is going to make little difference overall in an organism except for the loss of genetic information in most cases. Mutations do not happen with high frequency and when they do they are generally detrimental on the order of 1,000 bad mutations to 1 beneficial mutation. In order for mutations to make much difference there need to be a number of them at one time. If it took just two base pairs to make a beneficial mutation then it would take 1,000 x 1,000 tries before only the two beneficial synergistic mutations happened together. Take into account the rarity of mutations, there is little likelihood that this is even going to happen.
 
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KCfromNC

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The genetic makeup that you or I and any living creature has that is deemed to be functional and fit.

So humans today are an original form? Seems to be a strange use of the word "original" for something that tool 4 billion years of evolution to get here, but OK.

The more mutational changes to this the less fit and sicker we become.

Citation needed.

So when our genetics were being copied any mistakes were rectified

Citation needed.

Any mutational changes to that normally mean we become sick and diseased.

Normally or always?

Some say that the genetic makeup for life was better in the past and didn't have so much buildups of mutations in it.

Citation needed.

We are gradually accumulating mutational errors and therefore becoming less fit as time goes by.

Citation needed.

Certainly there are many species dying out and people are getting all sorts of illnesses, viral diseases and other types of maladies.

And these are related to mutations in what way?
 
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KCfromNC

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Diminishing Returns Epistasis Among Beneficial Mutations Decelerates Adaptation

These results provide the first evidence that patterns of epistasis may differ for within-and between-gene interactions during adaptation and that diminishing returns epistasis contributes to the consistent observation of decelerating fitness gains during adaptation.

Fitness gains? I thought you said there was no such thing as a beneficial mutation - and then you cite a paper which explains how much fitness gain is observed from certain combinations of beneficial mutations. That's not really going to impress anyone.
 
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Loudmouth

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Wolves are the ultimate hunting dog . . .

They are the worst hunting dog because they eat the things you are trying to hunt. We have bred out the instinct to kill prey in the hunting breeds. That's why retrievers bring back a bird instead of eating them when they find them.
Most of what else you mention can be more to do with an epigenetic influence.

Evidence?

But overall nothing you mention is beyond what already exists and there is nothing new added to the dog breed that would be a step towards changing/morphing them into another different type of creature.

Chimps and humans are still the same type of creature. We are both still primates.

Bears and humans are still the same type of creature. We are both still mammals.

Fish and humans are still the same type of creature. We are both still vertebrates.

Amoeba and humans are still the same type of creature. We are both still eukaryotes.

Do you still not understand how evolution works?

There are limits to mutations changing the original genetic makeup which has mechanisms to ensure it remains that way.

Yet another claim you refuse to back up with evidence.
 
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stevevw

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I would say that we describe them, but that they govern, regardless of what we say about them.
I would have thought they govern as there is order in life and the universe. When a scientist is explaining weather patterns or a astrophysicist is explaining what happens in the universe they are using maths to calculate things. Maybe humans are the ones that came up with the mathematical equations but thats our way of trying to describe whats happening. Because it fits to those mathematical equations just like maths works for equations to designs and programs it works to explain whats happening. So in that sense we all agree that nature has processes that are similar to what we would call patterns, codes and order. The question is what caused that order or patterns.
 
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They show that there are limits to evolving organisms away from their original genetic makeup.
That is very ignorant, stevevw.
You had the irrelevant to evolution examples of dogs and GMO showing no limits of "evolving" (humans breeding and engineering) organisms away from their original genetic makeup.

It is a lie to state that dogs and GMO show limits to evolution. The evolution of animals from single cells to whales, etc. show that any limits do not prevent evolution.

Do you really think that "Researchgate and science direct" are scientific journals :eek:!
Try to actually understand what you cited.
You cited the ID proponent Douglas Axe with a paper in the defunct BIO-Complexity in-house non-peer reviewed journal published by the Biologic Institute which is staffed and funded by the Discovery Institute.
 
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Insults that that nothing to do with the fact that it is ignorant to think that
  • evolution is humans breeding dogs or genetically engineering organisms.
  • humans breeding dogs or genetically engineering organisms is evidence for a limit to "evolving organisms away from their original genetic makeup".
Unless your point is that you do think that, Michael?
 
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Michael

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Insults that that nothing to do with the fact .....

That's just it RC, you don't discuss the 'facts'. You consistently slander and belittle human beings (all human beings you disagree with) in some brutish attempt to stuff your personal beliefs down everyone's throat by force.

You can't post a single post without including one or more of the following terms, usually multiple times in every post: Ignorant, deluded, lie, fantasy, crackpot, crank, etc. You also always make it personal by highlighting their first name during the debate. You burn strawmen out of their statements. You never stick to just discussing the *topic*, you attack the *individual*. In terms of the use of underhanded tactics in debate, you're the least ethical debater that I have ever met in cyberspace, and that's nothing to be proud of.
 
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That's just it RC, you don't discuss the 'facts'.
That is a lie as my signature shows. I cite facts about the Sun (e.g. a temperature of 5700 K that increases with depth vaporizes any delusion about a "rigid iron surface), a textbook about magnetic reconnection has an example of MR in vacuum, the fact that several published scientific papers mention MR in vacuum, the fact that Fe loses 9 electrons to form Fe IX at temperatures > 160,000 K and more facts.

There is no discussion to be had about a mistake of thinking that dog breeding or GMO is evolution.
The fact is that is a wrong statement.
The next fact is that a statement not about evolution cannot be evidence for a limit to "evolving organisms away from their original genetic makeup".
 
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Michael

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That is a lie as my signature shows.

Actually your signature shows that you simply cite yourself over and over and you lied about discharges being impossible in plasma. That's all your signature line demonstrates RC.

I cite facts about the Sun (e.g. a temperature of 5700 K that increases with depth

Even that statement isn't a 'fact'. You have no evidence that it increases with depth, and it wouldn't matter on iota if the rigid cathode is a plasma rather than a solid. Your argument is moot either way you look at it. You're still lying and trying to make a big deal about nothing.

vaporizes any delusion about a "rigid iron surface),

No it doesn't. The term "rigid" does not *require* solids. You're lying about my model again.

a textbook about magnetic reconnection has an example of MR in vacuum,

But the "fact" you left out is that it *requires* plasmas and the transfer of energy. You don't know "facts", just your own opinions which you *assume* are "facts".

the fact that several published scientific papers mention MR in vacuum,

Priest called that a "toy" and Somov's vacuum included plasma

the fact that Fe loses 9 electrons to form Fe IX at temperatures > 160,000 K and more facts.

You then asserted as "fact" that I claimed the surface was 160,000 degrees! You simply lied, you didn't present "facts" that came out of my mouth, or from my statements.

There is no discussion to be had about a mistake of thinking that dog breeding or GMO is evolution.
The fact is that is a wrong statement.

Even still, it doesn't excuse your belligerent behaviors or your emotional and egotistical need to attack *people* rather than ideas. Your debate tactics are down right sleazy, mean, and nasty. You don't discuss facts, you just talk trash.
 
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Actually your signature shows that you simply cite yourself over and over and you lied about discharges being impossible in plasma.
The irrational demand that I write my entire posts and the science that they contain again and again rather then just linking to them!
Lying about my signature and science, Michael:
It is "electrical discharges that require the breakdown of dielectric medium are impossible in plasma because plasma is not a dielectric medium" or Actual electrical discharges are impossible in plasma, etc.
This is simply that electrical discharges that result from the breakdown of a insulating medium are impossible in plasma because plasma conducts!

The evidence that temperature increases with depth inside the Sun has been given to you.

I do not claim that your delusion of a "rigid iron surface" requires solids.
I note that the temperature of the Sun means that iron is not a solid or a liquid - it is a gas and probably a plasma. The temperature vaporizes your delusion of a "rigid iron surface"

Repeat of the lies and delusions about the published accounts of MR in vacuum as listed in my signature for anyone to read e.g. (no plasma in Somov's example of MR in vacuum where MR actually happens in vacuum - literally X marks the spot :doh:).

A lie that I claimed that you stated that your surface is 160,000 K. It is your evidence for the delusion of a "rigid iron surface" that puts its temperature at greater than 160,000 K (that is when Fe loses 9 electrons). The images you have cited are of plasma at temperature at 160,000 to 2,000,000 K.
16 June 2016 Michael: A lie - It is the evidence you have for your "rigid iron surface" that puts its temperature at greater than 160,000 K (that is when Fe loses 9 electrons).
 
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[serious]

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Yep, same sleazy debate tactics, regardless of the topic or the individual you're attempting to bully into submission. You're so unethical.
Trouble being that that is not a proper quote. It would like making the above quote into:

sleazy individual. You're so unethical.

I mean, those are all words that appeared in your post in that order, but I cut out all the middle stuff.
 
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Michael

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The irrational demand that I write my entire posts and the science that they contain again and again rather then just linking to them!

In a scientific debate, nobody cares what *you personal said*. It's supposed to require linking to *external* support for your claim. You never do that however when cornered. When you blow it, and I ask you for references, you site *yourself* over and and over and over again. Your own links to your own false statements is not "supporting" your claim RC.

Lying about my signature and science, Michael:

There you go again putting loaded, pointless, emotional terms into a conversation where none are necessary or warranted. The only one lying around here is you. In fact you constantly lie about my beliefs on virtually a daily basis, and you've done so for *years* while stalking me around the internet. You simply cheat a debate RC. You constantly lie about my beliefs. Case in point:

It is your evidence for the delusion of a "rigid iron surface" that puts its temperature at greater than 160,000 K (that is when Fe loses 9 electrons).

Liar. That's another perfect example of a complete lie you told. I never made any such claim. You simply lied, and you packed your post with irrelevant personal attack nonsense *as usual*.

I won't let you hijack another thread. My comment was about your *behaviors* and the unethical nature of those immoral behaviors.
 
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Michael

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Trouble being that that is not a proper quote. It would like making the above quote into:

I was simply pointing out to RC that every single one of his posts, including his posts that are not directed at me personally, contains multiple personal attacks, multiple terms that are derogatory toward the individual, and terms which have no place in an honest scientific debate. I'll be the first to admit that in RC's case, I've fought fire with fire recently. I'm just sick and tired of the ridiculous nonsense at this point and the complete misrepresentation of my statements in a highly deceitful manner.
 
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stevevw

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That is very ignorant, stevevw.
You had the irrelevant to evolution examples of dogs and GMO showing no limits of "evolving" (humans breeding and engineering) organisms away from their original genetic makeup.
Why isn't examples of dog breeding showing genetic limits. If you say its because its to do with man made selection how does that make a difference. I would have thought man made selection could be more directed because it can navigate its way through trial to find the better paths. The same with GMC crops. Thy spend more money on the research for this than any other sector because it has large profits attached. So there is more research done on this to find the best possible genetic manipulation possible.

It is a lie to state that dogs and GMO show limits to evolution. The evolution of animals from single cells to whales, etc. show that any limits do not prevent evolution.
You say this but dont back up your claims. Everyone knows what evolution claims about single cells morphing into whales or whatever else they want to state. But no one has the verifiable evidence. In fact try and look up the steps it takes just to evolve a single cell organism to a multi celled one. Some steps are near impossible to explain let alone prove they happened.

Do you really think that "Researchgate and science direct" are scientific journals :eek:!
Do you use google scholar. Well thats what researchgate is like but more refined. It is a good tool for finding and accessing journals from around the world. Any paper I will post will normally be from a journal like nature, or plos anyway. So the papers are vaid journals that are peer reviewed. Over 9 million scientists use researchgate and it is becoming a good way to connect academics throughout the world to form collaborations for example.
Try to actually understand what you cited.
You cited the ID proponent Douglas Axe with a paper in the defunct BIO-Complexity in-house non-peer reviewed journal published by the Biologic Institute which is staffed and funded by the Discovery Institute.
First off an
ad hominem is a faulty premise for an proving an argument to begin with. Second his papers are also published on other scientific journals and peered reviewed. ie
Stylus: A System for Evolutionary Experimentation Based on a Protein/Proteome Model with Non-Arbitrary Functional Constraints
Douglas D. Axe ,
Brendan W. Dixon, Philip Lu
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0002246
Estimating the prevalence of protein sequences adopting functional enzyme folds.
Axe DD1.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15321723
Third there are other papers by other scientist who are not associated with the bio complexity of discovery institute that state similar things and are peer reviewed which I have posted.
Last and not least Doug Axe is a molecular biologist and an expert in the field of biological evolution and his associations do not diminish that fact. Once again you are trying to discredit qualifications by association.
 
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Loudmouth

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Why isn't examples of dog breeding showing genetic limits.

Would you watch a construction crew for 5 minutes to determine the limits of how high they could make a building?

We are talking about hundreds of millions of years of evolution. Looking at a few thousand years of evolution is not a valid example of what can happen over millions of years. The kinds of changes that you are asking about require many, many generations where accumulating mutations can interact and produce new phenotypes. A few thousand years of shuffling mutations that already exist is not a model for the accumulation of mutations over many generations.

If you say its because its to do with man made selection how does that make a difference. I would have thought man made selection could be more directed because it can navigate its way through trial to find the better paths. The same with GMC crops. Thy spend more money on the research for this than any other sector because it has large profits attached. So there is more research done on this to find the best possible genetic manipulation possible.

The irony is that we violate a nested hierarchy all of the time when we design organisms. Why wouldn't the supposed designer of life do the same? Why would the designer go to the painstaking effort to make species look like they evolved when there is no need to? Why not create species with an exact copy of a mammal, bird, and jellyfish gene?

Everyone knows what evolution claims about single cells morphing into whales or whatever else they want to state. But no one has the verifiable evidence.

There is evidence.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html

In fact try and look up the steps it takes just to evolve a single cell organism to a multi celled one. Some steps are near impossible to explain let alone prove they happened.

Yet another claim you never bother to back up.

Estimating the prevalence of protein sequences adopting functional enzyme folds.

According to this paper, your cytochrome c gene does not have function because it does not degrade beta-lactam antibiotics. In fact, no human protein anywhere in your body has function because none of them breakdown beta-lactam antibiotics.

How do you explain that?
 
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