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What do you mean by "Trinity"?

How do you define Trinity?

  • One God in three Persons - all of the persons, infinite, no beginning, eternal ...

    Votes: 17 85.0%
  • One God in threee persons - and not all the same attributes listed in option 1

    Votes: 1 5.0%
  • The definition does not include "one God in three persons" - so something else

    Votes: 2 10.0%

  • Total voters
    20

Erose

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Well, that presents two problems. One is how well you understand what the church presented. Given your posts, I have serious reservations about that. The other is that it assumes the church is inerrant and beyond question in what it has to say. That might fly in Catholicism, but certainly not with me and other Protestants here, not to mention those of us who are free thinkers and like to question.

Look obviously you have no understanding of classical concepts of being, and the Church's understanding, or lack thereof, of what a Divine Person is. The whole issue I see with your confusion, is that you want to equate person with being. They are not the same.

The Church really hasn't defined what a Divine Person is as far as I know, and there is an understanding that personhood when it comes to the divine is not identical as personhood in man or angel. What they have stated that the divine Persons are distinct due to their relation, not to their mode. So modalism is a heresy, and will remain one.

I'm hoping that you are wrong in your assessment that Protestants are moving away from trinitarianism to modalism. That would be a huge tragedy.
 
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ScottA

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No, no. it's not a matter of confusion here. It's simply a matter that language changes over the years. That's why, for example, there's a difference of about 20,000 changers between our KJV and the 1611KJV.
Nonetheless, providence belongs to God.
 
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Colter

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I just quoted a verse "wherein God had a Son who was also God."

...So, then...is your being "any more simple" mean that you are claiming that the scriptures are not the truth?
Scott, you just argue for the sake of it. The Jews did not and still do not interpret Izaiah as a Trinity, or multiple Gods. I stand by what I said the first time:

Sure, I agree, but I'm specifically talking about the Son that is the second member of the Trinity. Yahweh of Judaism wasn't thought of as a Trinity or having a divine Son. So all of this was revealed or re-revealed in Jesus.
 
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Righttruth

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Sorry, but I can't agree with that at all. I find you are reading far too much into the Genesis account. If that were in fact true, then "the people of the Book," the Jews, would have readily accepted Christ.

We cannot expect the Jews to understand what was implied earlier when they had difficulty in recognizing Him during His ministry.
 
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Righttruth

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Ex:

Psalms 82
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Psalms 86
8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.

Psalms 95
3 For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods.
 
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Righttruth

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Well, until you do present your sources, I'm going to rule your claim as totally bogus.

Sorry, it can't be easily done. I am convinced, and I was not trying convince or debate others at that time. Large number of people accept many bogus as truth including the man-made extrapolated concept of Trinity. I am least bothered about your ignorant assumption without any merit.
 
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Colter

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Ex:

Psalms 82
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Psalms 86
8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.

Psalms 95
3 For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods.
In the evolution of Judaism it wasn't that they didn't believe in other Gods, they just saw Yahweh as superior.
 
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ScottA

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Scott, you just argue for the sake of it. The Jews did not and still do not interpret Izaiah as a Trinity, or multiple Gods. I stand by what I said the first time:
I am not arguing. You seem to contradict yourself and then say you are not - so I question it, because what is clear, is: The scriptures say "a Son is given", "All mighty God"...then comes Jesus and fulfills all that is written.
 
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Righttruth

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In the evolution of Judaism it wasn't that they didn't believe in other Gods, they just saw Yahweh as superior.

I don't think so. They believed in one only God. They may have recognized gods or godly persons that were in tune with the attributes of their God.
 
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hedrick

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Look obviously you have no understanding of classical concepts of being, and the Church's understanding, or lack thereof, of what a Divine Person is. The whole issue I see with your confusion, is that you want to equate person with being. They are not the same.

The Church really hasn't defined what a Divine Person is as far as I know, and there is an understanding that personhood when it comes to the divine is not identical as personhood in man or angel. What they have stated that the divine Persons are distinct due to their relation, not to their mode. So modalism is a heresy, and will remain one.

I'm hoping that you are wrong in your assessment that Protestants are moving away from trinitarianism to modalism. That would be a huge tragedy.
This post raises a number of separate issues.

First, I don’t think the term “modes of existence” necessarily reflects modalism. Because the term isn’t used in any official definitions, it can be used in different ways. You’d need to see how a given writer is using it. One could, for example, say that it refers to God’s three ways of existing, as uncreated, begotten and proceeding.

Indeed the whole issue of modalism is complex, for reasons I’ve only realized while watching this discussion. Lots of people have been accused of it, and they’re not all saying the same thing. The essence of it seems to be denying an actual distinction of person within the Trinity, something that can happen in various ways.

Is modern Protestant theology modalist? I think that’s hard to judge. First, one of the characteristics of modern theology, going back for at least 200 years, is that it tends to avoid the metaphysical language in which Trinitarian theology has often been expressed. If that’s enough to make something heretical, then most modern Protestant theology is heretical. If not, you have to look at what’s being said and decide whether it’s trying to get at the same thing as the traditional definitions.

There I think you’ll find two basic strands, which are often mixed.

There’s a fair amount of modern theology that tries to maintain continuity with traditional theology, using modern concepts but trying to say the same thing. Most of it is not intentionally modalist.

The second strand starts from Scriptural scholarship, and is suspicious of doctrine that strays too far from it. Many of these people think that NT discussion of the logos and other ways of speaking of preexistence are referring to something that’s not ontologically equivalent to the Father, but is more a way of speaking of God’s way of being present with his people. These approaches may be closer to the original Monarchians, though it appears that even the Monarchians had probably lost some of the Jewish background to the NT language.

However these folks may still, as I do, think that if Jesus shows us God, then that God can’t be thought of as a pure monad, but there has to be some kind of personal relationship within his existence.

The following is the most recent official statement on the Trinity by my church: https://www.pcusa.org/site_media/media/uploads/theologyandworship/pdfs/trinityfinal.pdf. I believe it’s a representative of the first approach. Whether it actually manages to avoid modalism you’ll have to judge. Here is probably the most critical paragraph from that point of view:

“When we confess with the creeds of the universal church that God is “one in substance, and yet distinct in three persons” (The Scots Confession, BC, 3.01), we use terminology that is strange and perhaps off-putting to many members of the church today. However, the intent of these words is to declare that the mystery of the Trinity cannot be reduced either to a solitary individual or to a close-knit group of individuals. Trinitarian faith witnesses to the divine reality as living, active, dynamic, and relational. Relationship is at the heart of God’s being. One yet richly differentiated, God’s being is in communion. God lives and acts in mutual, self-giving love.”

I agree with this document, including the paragraph just quoted. But it avoids a review of the NT evidence, which I think would lead to a good deal of circumspection in how one asserts the Trinity.
 
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hedrick

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I don't think so. They believed in one only God. They may have recognized gods or godly persons that were in tune with the attributes of their God.
He said "in the evolution of Judaism." The OT certainly makes it appear that during the earliest periods many accepted the existence of more than one God but worshipped only the Lord. That's not true of Judaism by NT times, of course.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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He said "in the evolution of Judaism." The OT certainly makes it appear that during the earliest periods many accepted the existence of more than one God but worshipped only the Lord. That's not true of Judaism by NT times, of course.
Where they not deemed false gods even then?
 
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Erose

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This post raises a number of separate issues.

First, I don’t think the term “modes of existence” necessarily reflects modalism. Because the term isn’t used in any official definitions, it can be used in different ways. You’d need to see how a given writer is using it. One could, for example, say that it refers to God’s three ways of existing, as uncreated, begotten and proceeding.

Indeed the whole issue of modalism is complex, for reasons I’ve only realized while watching this discussion. Lots of people have been accused of it, and they’re not all saying the same thing. The essence of it seems to be denying an actual distinction of person within the Trinity, something that can happen in various ways.

Is modern Protestant theology modalist? I think that’s hard to judge. First, one of the characteristics of modern theology, going back for at least 200 years, is that it tends to avoid the metaphysical language in which Trinitarian theology has often been expressed. If that’s enough to make something heretical, then most modern Protestant theology is heretical. If not, you have to look at what’s being said and decide whether it’s trying to get at the same thing as the traditional definitions.

There I think you’ll find two basic strands, which are often mixed.

There’s a fair amount of modern theology that tries to maintain continuity with traditional theology, using modern concepts but trying to say the same thing. Most of it is not intentionally modalist.

The second strand starts from Scriptural scholarship, and is suspicious of doctrine that strays too far from it. Many of these people think that NT discussion of the logos and other ways of speaking of preexistence are referring to something that’s not ontologically equivalent to the Father, but is more a way of speaking of God’s way of being present with his people. These approaches may be closer to the original Monarchians, though it appears that even the Monarchians had probably lost some of the Jewish background to the NT language.

However these folks may still, as I do, think that if Jesus shows us God, then that God can’t be thought of as a pure monad, but there has to be some kind of personal relationship within his existence.

The following is the most recent official statement on the Trinity by my church: https://www.pcusa.org/site_media/media/uploads/theologyandworship/pdfs/trinityfinal.pdf. I believe it’s a representative of the first approach. Whether it actually manages to avoid modalism you’ll have to judge. Here is probably the most critical paragraph from that point of view:

“When we confess with the creeds of the universal church that God is “one in substance, and yet distinct in three persons” (The Scots Confession, BC, 3.01), we use terminology that is strange and perhaps off-putting to many members of the church today. However, the intent of these words is to declare that the mystery of the Trinity cannot be reduced either to a solitary individual or to a close-knit group of individuals. Trinitarian faith witnesses to the divine reality as living, active, dynamic, and relational. Relationship is at the heart of God’s being. One yet richly differentiated, God’s being is in communion. God lives and acts in mutual, self-giving love.”

I agree with this document, including the paragraph just quoted. But it avoids a review of the NT evidence, which I think would lead to a good deal of circumspection in how one asserts the Trinity.

Hedrick thanks for the post, and alway well thought out. The only issues I would say I have with it, is that I never claimed "modes of existence". Modalism as I understand it (I was once a oneness Pentecostal) is that God is one in both Being and Person, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are what God is referred to when performing different "modes of operation". God is the Father as creator, the Son as the redeemer, and the Holy Spirit as the sanctifier, for example. An analogy would be a man who is a father to his children, and husband to his wife, and a son to his parents.

The other issue, is that I didn't claim that Protestants are modalists, that is for all intents and purposes the proposal of Hoghead1. I pray that he is not right in his assessment.
 
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hedrick

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the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are what God is referred to when performing different "modes of operation". God is the Father as creator, the Son as the redeemer, and the Holy Spirit as the sanctifier, for example. An analogy would be a man who is a father to his children, and husband to his wife, and a son to his parents.
Yes, I would agree with you. That you would be modalist, though possibly not by intention. The PCUSA document I referred you to, while a complete summary of the Trinity, was a response to a tendency to replace "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" with "Creator, Redeemer and Sustainer," in order to avoid gender-specific language. I think that's equivalent to what you mention. The document notes that while God is creator, redeemer and sustainer, if this is taken as a definition of the Trinity it's a problem, because all three persons of the Trinity are involved in creation, sustaining and redeeming. That issue prompted our General Assembly to request a general review of the Trinity and terminology. The paper accepted Creator, Redeemer and Sustainer, but not as a replacement for Father, Son and Holy Spirit, for the reason noted.

(I'm sure there's some place in the PCUSA where this is still an issue, but I haven't seen this problem for a while.)

I hate analogies for the Trinity. They typically lead to misconceptions.
 
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hedrick

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Where they not deemed false gods even then?
Unambiguously, false in the sense that Israel wasn't to worship them. Non-existent, probably not.

First, I think there’s no doubt that many, probably most, people in Israel worshiped more than one God. Many places in Samuel through Kings you’ll see people who worship both God and Baal or other gods of Canaan. So it’s clear that Israel wasn’t monotheistic until near or after the Exile. See Jer 44:15 ff

However the prophets were always monotheistic, and opposed this kind of polytheism.

The more debatable matter is whether the Bible shows any evidence that its editors, or any of the patriarchs acknowledged the existence of more than one god. A lot of evidence is from talk about God speaking to the council of gods, and references to sons of god. The conventional view is that these are angels and not actual gods.

Then we have statements like Jeremiah 25:6, "and do not go after other gods to serve them and to worship them, and do not provoke Me to anger with the work of your hands, and I will do you no harm.'" Or Deuteronomy 6:14, "You shall not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who surround you"

This doesn’t say other gods don’t exist, but don’t serve them. But this is also subject to debate, Maybe the authors weren’t careful enough to say “supposed other gods.”

Ex 12:12 is a bit harder “For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike down every firstborn in the land of Egypt, both human beings and animals; on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the LORD,” How can you execute judgement on someone who doesn't exist?

Or Ex 18:10 Jethro said, “Blessed be the LORD, who has delivered you from the Egyptians and from Pharaoh. 11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods, because he delivered the people from the Egyptians, when they dealt arrogantly with them.”

One can always say that in every case where other gods are referred to the intent is other so-called gods, or demons pretending to be gods. But at some point you begin to suspect that there was a stage when people thought there were other gods, but that God was superior, or that Israel was committed to worshipping only him, or both.

One thing I think is quite clear is that Israel as a whole often worshipped other gods, even though they weren’t supposed to.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Unambiguously, false in the sense that Israel wasn't to worship them. Non-existent, probably not.

First, I think there’s no doubt that many, probably most, people in Israel worshiped more than one God. Many places in Samuel through Kings you’ll see people who worship both God and Baal or other gods of Canaan. So it’s clear that Israel wasn’t monotheistic until near or after the Exile. See Jer 44:15 ff

However the prophets were always monotheistic, and opposed this kind of polytheism.

The more debatable matter is whether the Bible shows any evidence that its editors, or any of the patriarchs acknowledged the existence of more than one god. A lot of evidence is from talk about God speaking to the council of gods, and references to sons of god. The conventional view is that these are angels and not actual gods.

Then we have statements like Jeremiah 25:6, "and do not go after other gods to serve them and to worship them, and do not provoke Me to anger with the work of your hands, and I will do you no harm.'" Or Deuteronomy 6:14, "You shall not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who surround you"

This doesn’t say other gods don’t exist, but don’t serve them. But this is also subject to debate, Maybe the authors weren’t careful enough to say “supposed other gods.”

Ex 12:12 is a bit harder “For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike down every firstborn in the land of Egypt, both human beings and animals; on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the LORD,” How can you execute judgement on someone who doesn't exist?

Or Ex 18:10 Jethro said, “Blessed be the LORD, who has delivered you from the Egyptians and from Pharaoh. 11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods, because he delivered the people from the Egyptians, when they dealt arrogantly with them.”

One can always say that in every case where other gods are referred to the intent is other so-called gods, or demons pretending to be gods. But at some point you begin to suspect that there was a stage when people thought there were other gods, but that God was superior, or that Israel was committed to worshipping only him, or both.

One thing I think is quite clear is that Israel as a whole often worshipped other gods, even though they weren’t supposed to.
Jeremiah 25:6 links other gods with works of mankind kindling anger in God. That seems to be the basic anology of the Bible. Probably the best diagram of that is in 1 Samuel where the Philistines captured the ark to place it before their god Dagon.
 
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Erose

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Yes, I would agree with you. That you would be modalist, though possibly not by intention. The PCUSA document I referred you to, while a complete summary of the Trinity, was a response to a tendency to replace "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" with "Creator, Redeemer and Sustainer," in order to avoid gender-specific language. I think that's equivalent to what you mention. The document notes that while God is creator, redeemer and sustainer, if this is taken as a definition of the Trinity it's a problem, because all three persons of the Trinity are involved in creation, sustaining and redeeming. That issue prompted our General Assembly to request a general review of the Trinity and terminology. The paper accepted Creator, Redeemer and Sustainer, but not as a replacement for Father, Son and Holy Spirit, for the reason noted.

(I'm sure there's some place in the PCUSA where this is still an issue, but I haven't seen this problem for a while.)

I hate analogies for the Trinity. They typically lead to misconceptions.

I admit I haven't had time as of yet to review the link given, and will do at some point.

And I agree, analogies always when taken to their conclusion leads to some form of heresy. I guess people just don't like mysteries.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Righttruth

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He said "in the evolution of Judaism." The OT certainly makes it appear that during the earliest periods many accepted the existence of more than one God but worshipped only the Lord. That's not true of Judaism by NT times, of course.

Agree
 
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Hoghead1

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I admit I haven't had time as of yet to review the link given, and will do at some point.

And I agree, analogies always when taken to their conclusion leads to some form of heresy. I guess people just don't like mysteries.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That is not at all true of analogies in general. It just depends on what particular one you have in mind. Some work well, some don't. However, analogize, we must. Our knowledge of reality and also God is essentially analogous knowledge.
No, many people don't like mysteries. The purpose of Trinitarian formulations should be to explain matters. Trouble is, many end up making paradoxical claims. The reason, however, is muddled thinking on the part of teh fathers, not the great mystery of God.
 
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