Please explain to me oneness pentecostal view on the trinity and modalism?

[Albion]

Well. to ignor your biblically unrelated question and to pose one of my own on my reply to it... how does the Son reveal the Father to us except thru the Holy Spirit?

I honestly don't understand any reasoning to your further reply ... ?

Here's the point of the question I posed to you...

You seemed to me to be concerned that hair-splitting theological arguments are too important to some people and make them say "You're not Christian (or your church is not) because your definition of Jesus or God, etc. isn't exactly the same as I give."

You said that you think the basics are more important, and you used examples, such as the 3 leaf clover. It's still a clover, isn't it? That was your point.

SO to that I asked if it would be fair to say that a petunia is just the same as a 3 leaf clover, since they're both plants? I think your answer would be "no."

What I was illustrating was that you have a reasonable point against nit-picking doctrinal issues, but that it's still the case that one can minimize the differences so much that we wind up not really speaking of the same God!

So if someone says that a Oneness church isn't really Christian, it's because they think that the idea of Jesus being the Father himself or either of them being the Holy Spirit etc., amounts to talking about a different god, although everybody is using the same names and terminology.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Here's the point of the question I posed to you...... they think that the idea of Jesus being the Father himself or either of them being the Holy Spirit etc., amounts to talking about a different god, although everybody is using the same names and terminology.

or three Gods .... from the other perspective... I'm sure you can see where this causes problems too

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

.. it's because they think that the idea of .. either of them being the Holy Spirit etc., amounts to talking about a different god....

Why would that be objected to or called un-Christian to the point of talking about a different god when scripture clearly says it's true?
2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

 

[Albion]

Why would that be objected to or called un-Christian to the point of talking about a different god when scripture clearly says it's true?
2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

There's no point in re-arguing the Trinity all over again, but almost all of Christianity agrees that our God is a Trinity, with the Father, Son, and HS not to be merged together or OTOH made out to be three different gods.

Since knowing God is the most fundamental belief of almost any religion, the point here is that those people who are critical enough of Oneness churches to the point that they will say they're not really Christian have this issue in mind.

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with anyone simply because I explain this; I just wanted to answer you when you asked why this is such a big deal to some critics of Oneness churches.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

There's no point in re-arguing the Trinity all over again, but almost all of Christianity agrees that our God is a Trinity, with the Father, Son, and HS not to be merged together or OTOH made out to be three different gods.

Since knowing God is the most fundamental belief of almost any religion, the point here is that those people who are critical enough of Oneness churches to the point that they will say they're not really Christian have this issue in mind.

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with anyone simply because I explain this; I just wanted to answer you when you asked why this is such a big deal to some critics of Oneness churches.

meh I think God does the merging in scripture while remaining distinct in His revealing of Himself. But again I have not affiliations with any organized religion so only speak on this one issue.

The Nicene Creed says there is one God (the Father) and two Lords (Jesus and HS) who are grouped together as one Lord.
Matthew 3:16-17 unlike the JWs the Nicene Creed does worship all three.

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)....
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)....
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)

 

[Hoghead1]

meh I think God does the merging in scripture while remaining distinct in His revealing of Himself. But again I have not affiliations with any organized religion so only speak on this one issue.

The Nicene Creed says there is one God (the Father) and two Lords (Jesus and HS) who are grouped together as one Lord.
Matthew 3:16-17 unlike the JWs the Nicene Creed does worship all three.

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)....
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)....
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)

Of historical interest is the fact that teh original Creed said nothing at all about the Spirit, just mentioned the name. The part we have today on the Spirit was added in about 500 AD. Even so, it never really come out and says the Spirit is the "very God of God," or one substance with the Father. Also, please not that the filogue is found only in the West.

 

[Hoghead1]

There's no point in re-arguing the Trinity all over again, but almost all of Christianity agrees that our God is a Trinity, with the Father, Son, and HS not to be merged together or OTOH made out to be three different gods.

Since knowing God is the most fundamental belief of almost any religion, the point here is that those people who are critical enough of Oneness churches to the point that they will say they're not really Christian have this issue in mind.

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with anyone simply because I explain this; I just wanted to answer you when you asked why this is such a big deal to some critics of Oneness churches.

It's a big deal, because modalism was declared a heresy early on. However, today, many theologians and Christians think otherwise and don't see it as a heresy.

 

[Hoghead1]

Why would that be objected to or called un-Christian to the point of talking about a different god when scripture clearly says it's true?
2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

It depends on how you are viewing the Trinity. If you are arguing there are three separate, unique personalities, then yes, that is tritheism, not monotheism.

 

[Hoghead1]

I appreciate that, but as for the questions I posed...? The reply, I think, explains why those who are reluctant to say "Christian" to every church that consider itself to be Christian think as they do. If that's bothering you.

the problem is that some Christians have the notion that they and they alone have an exclusive monopoly on God and that theirs and theirs alone the only true church. Everything is of the Devil. To me, that is sheer outright intolerance and bigotry.

 

[Hoghead1]

Hey I'm not an expert on oneness, nor do I know how the Son prayed to the Father. I merely go by what scripture says and trust that I will never fully know God unless He is revealed to me by the Son.

OK, but isn't that a kind of cop out? If you are assuming Christ prayed to the Father, then are you assuming they are two separate, unique personalities? In that case, you would be a ditheist not monotheistic. So it is very important to work these things out.

 

[Hoghead1]

It seems to be presumptuous ignorance to assume that one who believes the Lord is One is not a Christian. I don't belong to a Oneness church but admit I was baptised at one many years ago never having gone to that church as I lived in the bush of outback Canada and MERELY studied the bible for truth. And I have to admit that the experience was weird having worn mascara that day and died more from embarrasment that it ran down my face after the baptism (jkg)
But what is everyone objecting to I just don't get!!! Is water in the form of steam or ice not the same as water OR is a 3 leaf clover not actually one and the same plant????

1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.​

As the Spirit He is the life supply. Recieving (believing) Him [JESUS] as the crucified and resurrected savior, the lifegiving Spirit comes into us to impart eternal life. We recieve (believe) the Lord Jesus but we get the Holy Spirit who gives us life.

Hebrews 1:3b
... After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.​

Wherefore He has now become the Spirit in vs 63 of John 6 who gives life and speaks in spirit and life.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.​

The problem is that if you affirm the Trinity as three separate, unique personalities, then you end up with tritheism. Therefore, some have argued that the persons represent three ways God has of being God. However, that is modalism, which the early on declared a major heresy, although the fathers continued to use modalistic notions. Today, however, many theologians and Christians no longer look upon modalism as a major heresy. I sure don't.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

No offense but I think someone would have to be a fool to box themselves into a label (which btw is exactly what religionists do to those who don't investigate for themselves)
The Gospel of John unveils Jesus as the Son of God, the very God Himself, who is life to God's people. That's enclusive of all that God portrays Himself to be to His people.
Before His glorification His job was to finish the work, which He accomplished and that's what is presented to us as Life. Glorification of humanity results in Oneness to the Father as we are also taught. That which we obtain from glory to glory.
I don't think it pays to give knowledge credence above wisdom. It's better to know the Lord than know about Him, so no I don't think it's a copout.

 

[Hoghead1]

No offense but I think someone would have to be a fool to box themselves into a label (which btw is exactly what religionists do to those who don't investigate for themselves)
The Gospel of John unveils Jesus as the Son of God, the very God Himself, who is life to God's people. That's enclusive of all that God portrays Himself to be to His people.
Before His glorification His job was to finish the work, which He accomplished and that's what is presented to us as Life. Glorification of humanity results in Oneness to the Father as we are also taught. That which we obtain from glory to glory.
I don't think it pays to give knowledge credence above wisdom. It's better to know the Lord than know about Him, so no I don't think it's a copout.

It isn't that simple at all. Many Christians do hold with the notion that there are three separate, unique personalities in the Trinity. If so, where is the one God? I find nothing here but polytheism. This is a vital issue to address because the trinity is assumed to be an affirmation of monotheism. Just saying that you believe in the Bible and walking away does not even begin to address these crucial questions about the Trinity. It's not enough just to say you believe in the Trinity and leave it go at that, you need to spell out how the Trinity actually works.

 

[Albion]

the problem is that some Christians have the notion that they and they alone have an exclusive monopoly on God and that theirs and theirs alone the only true church. .

I don't believe that's true. Yes, there are churches that have the "exclusive monopoloy" POV you refer to, but there are more churches which do not...and yet these still consider Oneness and other unorthodox churches to be cults, calling them, therefore, "not Christian."

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I don't believe that's true. Yes, there are churches that have the "exclusive monopoloy" POV you refer to, but there are more churches which do not...and yet these still consider Oneness and other unorthodox churches to be cults, calling them, therefore, "not Christian."

Maybe they (calling them, therefore, "not Christian.") should start expounding on that scripture that say that Christ and the Spirit are one, the Father and Son are one and stop ignoring that scripture to justify their cause.
ETA of course they would not mean you as your only expounding on the one in this thread that said that, but anyone else that feels they are not different roles of the same God.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

We could start with
2 Corinthians 3:17
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

 

[Albion]

Maybe they (calling them, therefore, "not Christian.") should start expounding on that scripture that say that Christ and the Spirit are one, the Father and Son are one and stop ignoring that scripture to justify their cause.
ETA of course they would not mean you as your only expounding on the one in this thread that said that, but anyone else that feels they are not different roles of the same God.

Not to be redundant, but that's all I intended to do -- explain their reasoning.

 

[Cappadocious]

It depends on how you are viewing the Trinity. If you are arguing there are three separate, unique personalities, then yes, that is tritheism, not monotheism.

What is the demonstration for this?

 

[Hoghead1]

What is the demonstration for this?[/QUO I have already gone through with you. I am not about to repeat myself.

 

[Cappadocious]

I have already gone through with you. I am not about to repeat myself.

But you're willing to start the same stuff on this forum again and again, so you better be willing to tango again and again, again and again and again!