Question to Protestants regarding certain Catholic beliefs

[bbbbbbb]

We agree on different things with Catholicism:

1. We also believe in, that the prayer of a pastor or a bishop availeth much.
2. We also believe in, celebrating the body of Christ and blood through Holy Communion (we differ on if it's literal or symbolic).
3. We also believe in praying for other believers around the world.
4. We also believe it's important for believers to gather around every once in a while to hear and celebrate the Word of the LORD.

Significant areas of contention
1. We don't think we have to pray to Mary or any of the "Venerated" Saints to have our needs met.
2. We don't think most of Revelation ended in the 70 AD (Preterists vs. Futurists)

We may have to debate these areas till Kingdom COME!!!!!

The Catholic Church does not teach Preterism.

 

[Albion]

So, one can be saved from sin and all its effects and not have eternal life, but be condemned to an eternity in the Lake of Fire which is the outcome of all unforgiven sinners?

No, it's a verbal slight-of-hand. To say that one must do good works doesn't reflect what the church actually preaches, which is that the good works determine whether or not you'll be saved. OTOH, if a person has Faith, and Faith is what saves, of course such a person will perform good works. So it can safely be said that the saved "must do good works," but there's no doubt about whether or not they will do so or why they do.

 

[bbbbbbb]

As a Lutheran, the Christ's Biblical command to celebrate the Eucharist, as a means of grace (who are we to say that there is no grace in the Eucharist, baptism, confession when Scripture clearly tells us that sins are forgiven as a result of all three?) God is omnipotent and omnipresent; If you deny that Sacraments are a means of grace when Scripture so clearly tells us that they are, then you are denying Scripture.

As a "Bible based Christian", you already know that Jesus Christ is both God and Man; His divinity comes for God; begotten before all worlds; His humanity from Mary. Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ; Immanuel (God with us), so she is the mother of Jesus, not only of His humanity but His divinity as well. Without her, God would not have dwelt with us; so she, as our Lutheran confessions clearly state is "Mother of God" and Theotokis.

To say otherwise is defying God's word.

In my many discussions with Lutheran brothers over the years I have yet to have any of them show me any passage in the New Testament which expounds the Lutheran "means of grace". IOW, the term "means of grace" is absent from the Bible, which is quite curious to me since much of Lutheran theology depends upon them. It is rather like the distinction between "moral" Law and "ceremonial" Law that some have built their theologies upon. That distinction is also absent from scripture.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No, it's a verbal slight-of-hand. To say that one must do good works doesn't reflect what the church actually preaches, which is that the good works determine whether or not you'll be saved. OTOH, if a person has Faith, and Faith is what saves, of course such a person will perform good works. So it can safely be said that the saved "must do good works," but there's no doubt about whether or not they will do so or why they do.

Yes, it is a verbal sleight-of-hand which is generally used to put the church member on a treadmill of works in an effort to merit eternal life when, in fact, eternal life (salvation) is a free gift of God of which good works which God has foreordained is the fruit.

 

[Albion]

...and yet there isn't a Catholic on these forums who can say what kinds of works or how many of them, etc. are necessary.

It's often said by people that OSAS/Eternal Security is a gloomy POV, but I can't think of much that would be worse than thinking, throughout life, that despite one's Faith, good works, and obedience to the church's regulations, if you have a stroke and die moments after committing some sin, you're lost forever.

 

[Albion]

************************************
Do you know what, I actually thought that when Catholics were talking about the Immaculate Conception that they meant JESUS, that JESUS was born sinless and perfect.

Don't feel too bad about that; it's a common misperception. And I suppose that it's easily accepted since most Christians of all denominations agree that Jesus was born without sin.

 

[Light of the East]

So, one can be saved from sin and all its effects and not have eternal life, but be condemned to an eternity in the Lake of Fire which is the outcome of all unforgiven sinners?

If you were saved from sin and all its effects, you would never get sick and die, would you? You would never suffer in this life either, would you?

You do not have eternal life when you are saved. Let's look at the Scriptures to see what you do have:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The inheritance is eternal life. Other passages in Scripture show this, such as Mark 10:17, Luke 10:25, Luke 18:18, Gal 3:18, Eph. 5: 5, and Col 3: 24

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Protestants say that when you receive the Holy Spirit, you have eternal life, meaning that you are "once saved-always saved" and are "as sure for heaven as if you were standing in it now" (popular nonsense preached by evangelists like Billy Graham). Obviously they don't study the Bible carefully.

What do the verses above say regarding the Holy Spirit? He is the EARNEST of our inheritance?

Now if you are any sort of Bible student, you will ask yourself, "What does the word earnest mean?" And you will find out that it is an old word that means "down payment." A down payment is a promissory amount given in transaction which gives part of the whole with the rest to come later upon completion of the agreement.

Part of the whole. Did you get that? What is the whole? Eternal life. What is part of the whole? It is the Holy Spirit, who is eternal life itself. So we do have eternal life, but only a down payment on it. We get the rest only if we persevere to the end. The Scriptures speak of those who "fall away" from the faith. Do you think they will inherit eternal life if they have broken off the relationship with Christ and have left Him?

 

[Light of the East]

One of the multitude of difficulties with sacramentalism is the late development of the Catholic priesthood. This priesthood is foreign to the pages of the New Testament and is assuredly unrelated to the Levitical priesthood of the Old Testament.

This is entirely your opinion unless you can back this up with both Scripture and proper exegesis of that Scripture.

Your turn....I'll be waiting to see what Scripture you give as proof of this assertion.

 

[Light of the East]

The Catholic Church does not teach Preterism.

True, but it does allow for that belief since it has not dogmatically defined any of the positions on eschatology.

 

[Light of the East]

The Immaculate Conception is just another idea of the devil to take glory from GOD ALONE as Saviour.

Oh, STOP IT!!!!

JUST
STOP
IT!

The Roman idea of the Immaculate Conception is based not in satanic ritualism but in a faulty anthropological understanding which came from Augustine's strange ruminations on anthropological reality.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

So if man will be saved by works then what would be required to make sure it's pleasant to God? Is there a measuring scale to determine who's worthy eternal life? IMHO I think the argument should be, works is just one thing to gain eternal life but the real deal is the heart since it is the real measuring scale on who would be worth of eternal life.

Christ said, Matthew 5:22, "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."

In other words, the works have to be accompanied with righteous intentions or else it would be for nothing. So my question is incorporating good works as a part of doctrine likely to lead to "false" acts of generosity? What if good works are voluntary, wouldn't it lead to more genuine Christianity or very few Good Christians around the world???

 

[Albion]

You do not have eternal life when you are saved.

Strictly speaking, that's probably true. What you have is the assurance of salvation (AKA "eternal life"). But I think that that is was what was meant.

 

[Light of the East]

************
No, that's not it (and the Bible was originally in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, not Latin. Rome just wanted to make it harder for the common man to follow God). The difference is not the language of the scriptures, it's whether one has a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with the Author. Catholics do not. Jesus said MY sheep hear MY voice.The Pope is not Jesus, Mary is not Jesus, the saints are not Jesus. JESUS is Jesus. If you cannot clearly hear HIS voice and you do not personally know HIM, then you need to ask yourself if you really ARE HIS SHEEP. Jesus dwells WITHIN his people by his Spirit. They need no external mediators nor Co-Redeemers. They have THE Redeemer, THE Saviour, THE Way, THE Truth and THE Life. They are abiding in the TRUE Vine (and that IS NOT the Catholic church). He that has the SON has life, he that has not the Son of God HAS NOT LIFE. If any man have not the Spirit of CHRIST he is none of his. The reason why there is a different interpretation of practices is simply because some people honour the teachings of men and neglect the commandments of the Living God.

Since you do not belong to the Church which Jesus established upon the Apostles, and since you deny the Apostolic teachings and practices which they taught, one wonders who exactly it is who doesn't hear the voice of the Lord?

You talk about honoring the teachings of men, yet you follow the teachings of some man who came along some 16 centuries after Christ and the Apostles and which teachings deny 16 centuries of practice which go back to the beginning.

If you will to follow a man, that's fine, but your pleas of following Christ when you deny his Church and the Apostolic teachings are .... humorous.

 

[Light of the East]

Strictly speaking, that's probably true. What you have is the assurance of salvation (AKA "eternal life"). But I think that that is was what was meant.

I would agree with one reservation ... you have assurance of salvation if you persevere to the end.

 

[Albion]

In other words, the works have to be accompanied with righteous intentions or else it would be for nothing. So my question is incorporating good works as a part of doctrine likely to lead to "false" acts of generosity? What if good works are voluntary, wouldn't it lead to more genuine Christianity or very few Good Christians around the world???

We're talking on this thread about the Catholic view of things. To the RCC, a good work is a good work. Of course, it would be better if they were performed for the love of God than in order to build up a spiritual resume.

 

[Albion]

I would agree with one reservation ... you have assurance of salvation if you persevere to the end.

So, back to works righteousness in defiance of what the Bible (and Jesus himself) teaches us. (?)

 

[Linet Kihonge]

The Catholic Church does not teach Preterism.

Seriously!!! Isn't Revelations an apocalyptic book of how Jerusalem fell in the early parts of 1st Century? Hasn't Christ come back for the Church and is present in the Eucharist? Help me understand Preterism if that isn't the truth!!!

 

[Light of the East]

So if man will be saved by works then what would be required to make sure it's pleasant to God? Is there a measuring scale to determine who's worthy eternal life? IMHO I think the argument should be, works is just one thing to gain eternal life but the real deal is the heart since it is the real measuring scale on who would be worth of eternal life.

Christ said, Matthew 5:22, "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."

In other words, the works have to be accompanied with righteous intentions or else it would be for nothing. So my question is incorporating good works as a part of doctrine likely to lead to "false" acts of generosity? What if good works are voluntary, wouldn't it lead to more genuine Christianity or very few Good Christians around the world???

Go back and re-read my posts. I didn't say that a man was saved by works, did I? You put words in my mouth. I said that salvation is an entirely free gift of God's grace, accomplished for us by Christ's work alone on the Cross. The best picture of this is infant baptism. The child can do absolutely nothing in terms of works. All he/she does is receive the grace of Christ in baptism.

What I said is that eternal life is awarded based on our works. And it is God who judges the nature, character, and intent of those works.

We do, however, have guidelines to help us. The moral teaching of the 10 Commandments. The Sermon on the Mount. And Matthew 25: 31-46, in which we are instructed to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and care for the poor.

And Jesus boiled all this down to two Great Commandments: love God supremely and your neighbor as yourself. Our works are really about love for God and man, aren't they?

 

[Light of the East]

So, back to works righteousness in defiance of what the Bible (and Jesus himself) teaches us. (?)

You didn't read a thing I wrote previously, did you?

 

[Albion]

Since you do not belong to the Church which Jesus established upon the Apostles, and since you deny the Apostolic teachings and practices which they taught, one wonders who exactly it is who doesn't hear the voice of the Lord?.

Where'd you get the idea that Christ formed a club instead of a church? From the particular denomination, or any of them, that stands to benefit from instilling that notion into its people, right?