Question to Protestants regarding certain Catholic beliefs

[Job8]

I'm beginning to think that most protestant beliefs against catholic practices are a bit wrong, which leads me here to see what your thoughts are in regards to some Biblical back up supporting Catholic practices and theology.

The items you have mentioned are not the most serious objections against Roman Catholic doctrines and practices. The most fundamental attack on Bible truth is the manner in which the finished work of Christ for our salvation has been set aside, and Sacramentalism has replaced it. The Bible does NOT teach that sacraments save anyone, neither does the Bible teach that salvation is to be found in the church of Rome and nowhere else.

As to "the mother of God", since the Bible reveals that God is the triune Godhead, that is not a legitimate title, and even Scripture says "the mother of Jesus". As to praying to the saints and Mary, we could display a dozen prayers which refute the idea that this is the same as asking other believers for intercession.

 

[Light of the East]

The items you have mentioned are not the most serious objections against Roman Catholic doctrines and practices. The most fundamental attack on Bible truth is the manner in which the finished work of Christ for our salvation has been set aside, and Sacramentalism has replaced it. The Bible does NOT teach that sacraments save anyone, neither does the Bible teach that salvation is to be found in the church of Rome and nowhere else.

As to "the mother of God", since the Bible reveals that God is the triune Godhead, that is not a legitimate title, and even Scripture says "the mother of Jesus". As to praying to the saints and Mary, we could display a dozen prayers which refute the idea that this is the same as asking other believers for intercession.

The Sacraments do not "set aside" the work of Christ for our salvation. They are the means by which that salvation is applied.

That's like saying that a hypodermic needle invalidates the medicine which it delivers.

 

[Job8]

Anyway, my next question is about Justification. Another big debate among Catholics and Protestants. I believe in Faith and good works, and I don't understand why Protestants differ from that.

Here's the big difference. First let's look at the key passage, and we will notice that Catholicism does not teach this (Eph 2:8-10):

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

GRACE + FAITH = SALVATION
For by grace are ye saved through faith;

HUMAN EFFORT EXCLUDED FROM SALVATION
and that not of yourselves:

SALVATION PURELY A GIFT
it is the gift of God:

WORKS EXCLUDED FOR SALVATION
Not of works,

BOASTING EXCLUDED FROM SALVATION
lest any man should boast.

CHRISTIANS GOD'S WORKMANSHIP
For we are his workmanship,

CHRISTIANS NEW CREATURES IN CHRIST
created in Christ Jesus

CREATED UNTO (FOR THE PURPOSE OF) GOOD WORKS
unto good works,

GOOD WORKS FOREORDAINED
which God hath before ordained

GOOD WORKS A PART OF THE CHRISTIAN WALK
that we should walk in them.

 

[Job8]

The Sacraments do not "set aside" the work of Christ for our salvation. They are the means by which that salvation is applied.

And that is precisely the point. Which sacrament was administered to Abraham at the point that he was counted righteous? And Abraham is deemed to be the father of all believers.

 

[Light of the East]

Here's the big difference. First let's look at the key passage, and we will notice that Catholicism does not teach this (Eph 2:8-10):

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

GRACE + FAITH = SALVATION
For by grace are ye saved through faith;

HUMAN EFFORT EXCLUDED FROM SALVATION
and that not of yourselves:

SALVATION PURELY A GIFT
it is the gift of God:

WORKS EXCLUDED FOR SALVATION
Not of works,

BOASTING EXCLUDED FROM SALVATION
lest any man should boast.

CHRISTIANS GOD'S WORKMANSHIP
For we are his workmanship,

CHRISTIANS NEW CREATURES IN CHRIST
created in Christ Jesus

CREATED UNTO (FOR THE PURPOSE OF) GOOD WORKS
unto good works,

GOOD WORKS FOREORDAINED
which God hath before ordained

GOOD WORKS A PART OF THE CHRISTIAN WALK
that we should walk in them.

All of what you said is very Catholic. Salvation is a a free gift. Eternal life, on the other hand, is not. There are four passages which distinctly teach that in order receive the end of our journey of salvation, we must do good works:

Matthew 25: 31-46
Romans 2: 5-10
John 5: 28-29
Rev. 20: 12-13

Perhaps you have misunderstood why good works must be done by the believer. Not to obtain salvation, but eternal life.

 

[Light of the East]

And that is precisely the point. Which sacrament was administered to Abraham at the point that he was counted righteous? And Abraham is deemed to be the father of all believers.

There were no Sacraments in Abraham's time. The New Covenant was not established.

However, there was an ordinance which was given by God in order for Abraham to be covenanted to God: circumcision. Had Abraham not done that, he would not have had a relationship with God.

 

[Albion]

Let's clarify that Job8 has compared "sacramentalism" (which a majority of Protestants accept as well as do Catholics) with Sola Fide when the comparison ought to be Works Righteousness vs. Salvation by Faith.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

And that is precisely the point. Which sacrament was administered to Abraham at the point that he was counted righteous? And Abraham is deemed to be the father of all believers.

We agree on different things with Catholicism:

1. We also believe in, that the prayer of a pastor or a bishop availeth much.
2. We also believe in, celebrating the body of Christ and blood through Holy Communion (we differ on if it's literal or symbolic).
3. We also believe in praying for other believers around the world.
4. We also believe it's important for believers to gather around every once in a while to hear and celebrate the Word of the LORD.

Significant areas of contention
1. We don't think we have to pray to Mary or any of the "Venerated" Saints to have our needs met.
2. We don't think most of Revelation ended in the 70 AD (Preterists vs. Futurists)

We may have to debate these areas till Kingdom COME!!!!!

 

[Job8]

Salvation is a a free gift. Eternal life, on the other hand, is not.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23). SALVATION = ETERNAL LIFE.

 

[Job8]

There were no Sacraments in Abraham's time. The New Covenant was not established.

Precisely my point. Yet Abraham was deemed by God to be righteous. Which proves that sacraments are not necessary to be deemed righteous. Please listen to what the Holy Spirit has to say.

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed s the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world,was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is,there isno transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed,even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[Job8]

Let's clarify that Job8 has compared "sacramentalism" (which a majority of Protestants accept as well as do Catholics) with Sola Fide when the comparison ought to be Works Righteousness vs. Salvation by Faith.

Albion,

As you probably know, the seven sacraments of the RCC are necessary for salvation. But departure from Sola Fide is also critical.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The items you have mentioned are not the most serious objections against Roman Catholic doctrines and practices. The most fundamental attack on Bible truth is the manner in which the finished work of Christ for our salvation has been set aside, and Sacramentalism has replaced it. The Bible does NOT teach that sacraments save anyone, neither does the Bible teach that salvation is to be found in the church of Rome and nowhere else.

As to "the mother of God", since the Bible reveals that God is the triune Godhead, that is not a legitimate title, and even Scripture says "the mother of Jesus". As to praying to the saints and Mary, we could display a dozen prayers which refute the idea that this is the same as asking other believers for intercession.

As a Lutheran, the Christ's Biblical command to celebrate the Eucharist, as a means of grace (who are we to say that there is no grace in the Eucharist, baptism, confession when Scripture clearly tells us that sins are forgiven as a result of all three?) God is omnipotent and omnipresent; If you deny that Sacraments are a means of grace when Scripture so clearly tells us that they are, then you are denying Scripture.

As a "Bible based Christian", you already know that Jesus Christ is both God and Man; His divinity comes for God; begotten before all worlds; His humanity from Mary. Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ; Immanuel (God with us), so she is the mother of Jesus, not only of His humanity but His divinity as well. Without her, God would not have dwelt with us; so she, as our Lutheran confessions clearly state is "Mother of God" and Theotokis.

To say otherwise is defying God's word.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Precisely my point. Yet Abraham was deemed by God to be righteous. Which proves that sacraments are not necessary to be deemed righteous. Please listen to what the Holy Spirit has to say.

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed s the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world,was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is,there isno transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed,even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Actually there were; but they were not the same. Sacraments are about what God does for us; Sacrifices are what we do for God. For example, on the day of atonement, the ritual was sacrificial; the atonement was sacramental (it came from God).

 

[com7fy8]

The Sacraments do not "set aside" the work of Christ for our salvation. They are the means by which that salvation is applied.

But our Apostle Peter does say,

"Be hospitable to one another without grumbling. As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." (1 Peter 4:9-10)

So, every child of God ministers His grace. We all are in this priesthood > Peter says, "a royal priesthood", in 1 Peter 2:9. In each of us, Jesus shares with us His ability to minister His own grace > Galatians 2:20, Galatians 4:19. And Jesus is our High Priest >

"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin." (Hebrews 4:15)

Jesus as our High Priest has gone through things of this life, in order that now He can feel for us and help us with His grace which made Him able to do so well, here. And, like this, we in Jesus go through things of this evil world and now we can feel for others and minister to them, also, the grace which has us succeeding in loving, instead of bleeding in selfish ego stuff.

 

[Light of the East]

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23). SALVATION = ETERNAL LIFE.

You didn't bother to read any of the verses I posted, did you? You just reacted with a knee-jerk, automatic, unthinking reaction and now you feel the issue is closed.

Since you don't wish to read the verses I posted, I shall post them with commentary.

Romans 2:5-10 King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

In other words, Paul is speaking about Judgment Day.

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Every man - this means that this is the Last Judgment when all is settled regarding our lives on earth.

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing (GOOD WORKS) seek (Why seek if you already have OSAS eternal life?) for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (Again, why seek for something you already have?)

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, (This doesn't bode well for those who have left the Church and willingly remain in ignorance by ignoring what people are trying to tell the them) but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

I guess someone forgot to correct Paul and let him know that it was by "faith alone" and that works have nothing to do with it.

Revelation 20:12-14King James Version (KJV)
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

What? Not according to their faith or their right doctrine? Not according to membership in the right Protestant denomination of the 40,000 denominations out there all claiming to be the Church? Surely this couldn't be from God. John must have taken some bad mushrooms.

Faith alone was invented by Luther because Luther couldn't come to peace with God over his own works. Read his story sometime. He was a very psychologically sick individual who felt that all he did was dirty, evil, and wicked. He got this from his father, who was himself a very twisted individual who couldn't give Luther praise if his life depended on it. Like all members of the human race, Luther transferred his relationship with his earthly father to the Father in heaven, and it terrified him. Thus he was ripe for the satanic delusions which followed.

 

[Light of the East]

Precisely my point. Yet Abraham was deemed by God to be righteous. Which proves that sacraments are not necessary to be deemed righteous. Please listen to what the Holy Spirit has to say.

Not what the Holy Spirit is teaching at all. What you are teaching is the Lutheran and Calvinist twisting of Scripture to make it fit your preconceived ideas.

1Jo 3:12

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

God declares a man righteous because of his works.

James clarifies this:

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Faith without works (aka sola fide) does not save according to James's rhetorical question.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

This is why Luther wanted to take a scissors to James, because it destroys his heretical doctrine. Apparently you either haven't seen this or don't want to consider it.

The passage you quote from Romans is one of the most misunderstood and mistranslated portions of the Bible. Protestants claim that because Abraham faith, God did some sort of magical mumbo-jumbo and infused Abraham with a righteousness that was not his own (imputed righteousness or forensic justification). But the examination of the Greek shows differently. The word "logizomai" means that one counts what is already there. In other words, when Abraham acted (did the WORK) of placing his son on the altar, God saw that Abraham was righteous and declared it as such. He did not see Abraham as a sinner unable to please God and then give him the righteousness of Christ. The Greek in this chapter does not allow for such a translation.

And finally, even if a man is declared righteous, what does that have to do with eternal life? Righteous simply means to be in right standing with God, and like any relationship, you can walk away from that right standing and sour the relationship. It is our good works which feed and maintain the relationship. They don't MAKE the relationship - that is initial salvation wherein we are baptized into Christ and become an adopted child of God. That is free - utterly gratis.

But like all relationships - the relationship must be fed. And good works do that.

 

[Light of the East]

But our Apostle Peter does say,

"Be hospitable to one another without grumbling. As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." (1 Peter 4:9-10)

I have utterly no idea how you are trying to connect this with the Sacraments.

So, every child of God ministers His grace. We all are in this priesthood > Peter says, "a royal priesthood", in 1 Peter 2:9. In each of us, Jesus shares with us His ability to minister His own grace > Galatians 2:20, Galatians 4:19. And Jesus is our High Priest >

"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin." (Hebrews 4:15)

Again, what does this have to do with the Sacraments?

Jesus as our High Priest has gone through things of this life, in order that now He can feel for us and help us with His grace which made Him able to do so well, here. And, like this, we in Jesus go through things of this evil world and now we can feel for others and minister to them, also, the grace which has us succeeding in loving, instead of bleeding in selfish ego stuff.

One more time, please explain. Throwing about verses is not an explanation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Sacraments do not "set aside" the work of Christ for our salvation. They are the means by which that salvation is applied.

That's like saying that a hypodermic needle invalidates the medicine which it delivers.

One of the multitude of difficulties with sacramentalism is the late development of the Catholic priesthood. This priesthood is foreign to the pages of the New Testament and is assuredly unrelated to the Levitical priesthood of the Old Testament.

 

[Albion]

Albion,

As you probably know, the seven sacraments of the RCC are necessary for salvation.

Well, no. It's obviously not the case that the RCC holds that only married persons or those who have received the last rites before death (Extreme Unction) can be saved. And very few Catholics ever receive the sacrament of Holy Orders (ordination). Women aren't even allowed to receive it. Confirmation is now expected, but millions of Catholics in good standing haven't been Confirmed and the church absolutely does teach that a Baptized member who dies before being Confirmed isn't excluded from salvation for that reason.

 

[bbbbbbb]

All of what you said is very Catholic. Salvation is a a free gift. Eternal life, on the other hand, is not. There are four passages which distinctly teach that in order receive the end of our journey of salvation, we must do good works:

Matthew 25: 31-46
Romans 2: 5-10
John 5: 28-29
Rev. 20: 12-13

Perhaps you have misunderstood why good works must be done by the believer. Not to obtain salvation, but eternal life.

So, one can be saved from sin and all its effects and not have eternal life, but be condemned to an eternity in the Lake of Fire which is the outcome of all unforgiven sinners?