Continued.
You continually indicate that 'your way' is better or more preferable than God's way. That is, if we use the Bible as the source of our understanding.
No I don't.
I've been talking about our understanding of Scripture and the way we read it. I've been asking if you believe we should take it all literally and apply all of it to us today, even passages which obviously can't be applied to us literally and were never intended to be.
What does 'fair' mean? For it would seem that you are more 'caught up' in what 'you' perceive as 'fair' than any sort of 'order' we have been given in understanding. I believe that if you could simply 'get over' the concept of 'everything needs to be fair according to my view' you may find it much easier to accept words that are offered as clearly as they could be.
?? Where did I say that women have to be ordained/be preachers because otherwise it's not fair?
Now, a question: What source of information can we use to determine the 'truth'. If a woman 'claims' to have been 'called by God' to be ordained, what source of information can we faithfully turn to to know whether what she speaks is the truth or 'untruth'?
1. Scripture.
Scripture does not say "women cannot be ordained"; those exact words are not in the Bible anywhere. There are some verses where Paul talks about women being silent, and one or two more where he says that a deacon must have one wife, and people have read between the lines, put two and two together to make 5 and concluded that these verses prove that a woman cannot be ordained, but Scripture does not say that. If you are in favour of taking Scripture at face value, then that's a teaching that isn't there.
What Scripture does teach, and show, us is that in the chauvinistic world of the NT, Jesus treated women exceptionally well. The world, at that time, said that a woman was not allowed to learn, be educated - Jesus allowed Mary to sit at his feet, in the place reserved for the male students of Rabbis, and said that she had chosen the best way. Women, at that time, could be easily divorced - Jesus quoted the Scriptures which reminded them that God planned marriage to be for life. Women, at that time, were thought to be unreliable witnesses in a court of law (if they were even allowed to be in a court of law) - Jesus chose a woman to be the first witness to his resurrection.
Also in the NT I see a church which had no problem with women and treated them as Jesus had done; allowing them to be in the upper room after the ascension, allowing them to be deacons and deaconesses. Paul accepted and commended them as his co-workers, and Lydia was probably one of the founder members of the church at Philippi. Paul also gave teaching about how a woman should pray and prophesy, which means he agreed with them doing this, and did not teach, anywhere, that certain gifts of the Spirit are for MEN only.
Against all this background, it doesn't make sense for him to suddenly say, "women should be silent, I do not allow them to teach" - which is why I've been asking what he meant by those verses.
2. The church
Anyone who says they are called should submit that calling to the church; asking other Christians, who may be older, wiser and more experienced, to pray about it and discern the Lord's will and guidance. I don't know about some smaller churches, but mostly this is what happens. No one just stands up on a Sunday and says "I feel led to give the sermon today" or "I was called earlier in the week to lead this congregation". Scripture teaches that all matters should be brought before the church - like disputes - and prophecies should be tested.
So if a woman says "I believe God is calling me to be ordained", and the church prays about it, interviews her, tests and assesses her, trains her and finally ordains her - showing that they obviously agree with that calling. The church, incidentally, is all the people - the congregations - but is also made up of male clergy, theologians, bishops etc. If the church doesn't agree with a woman's calling to ordination, then she remains unordained, however strong her "feeling". She may leave and go to a church that does recognise this call to be from God, but if she stays in her own church she will have to continue as a lay person.
David Koresh influenced many to believe what he 'said'. Jim Jones convinced many to believe what he 'said'. But if any of those that were deceived had placed their faith in God's Word as offered, none of them 'could' have been deceived in such a manner.
Not quite true because people interpret the Bible in different ways. Moonies, Mormons, JWs and other cults claim their teachings are Scriptural. The Pharisees in Jesus' day quoted the Scriptures. This was not wrong, but they stuck rigidly to their interpretation of the Scriptures and missed the truth of what Jesus taught them. They were so wedded to the old covenant that they missed the new that had come and the new way in which God was working.
I see this very concept in almost everything you offer. You are insistent upon viewing everything offered concerning the roles of men and women from your own desire to see things differently. And then insist that the Bible is not 'clear'. When the answer is: it's not clear to 'you' because you don't want to accept what it offers. But almost everyone else, it is perfectly clear.
No I'm not. I've been asking what you understand by certain Scriptures, and trying to explain that I do not believe that they teach the things you claim that they do nor that they should be applied literally to us today. You seem to interpret that as "picking and choosing bits from the Bible that I don't like"; being selective in which teachings I follow.
And if this matter WAS "perfectly clear" to everybody else, then we wouldn't have all these debates and arguments - the church simply would not allow women to preach or be ordained. All of us who said "I believe God is calling me to do this" would be told to go away and not be so silly/disobedient/heretical. Does this happen today? No, God calls women to preach and be Ministers in his church, and the church agrees, is often blessed by the woman's ministry, and grows. Neither God, nor his church, prevents women from following his call.
I don't care if you choose to be a minister or run around calling yourself Christ. That is something that you are going to have to face the responsibility for.
Yes, when God says to me, "I called you to be a preacher; how did you respond to that call and use the gifts IO have given you?" I will need to answer. Just as if God says to some people - and I believe he will - "why did you prevent women from serving me, or insult them and belittle their calling?" they will have to have an answer.
What you continually attempt to do is indicate that you don't 'know' the truth.
What you continually demonstrate is that you don't read and understand Scripture in the same way as I do - and clearly it must be me who is wrong.
If you believe that the words "as in all the churches, a woman should be silent", or "I do not permit a woman to teach, she should be silent" apply to us today and are literally true, then great. I hope you obey and apply them. Maybe you should leave this conversation and forum so as not to risk being taught by a woman. Maybe you shouldn't read books/sing hymns written by women in case you learn something about God. And I hope that you don't allow your wife/sisters/daughters/female cousins to speak, read the Scriptures, pray or prophesy in church (even though Paul allowed the latter). You have the right, and in fact must, remain true to what you believe Scripture is teaching. Personally, I believe your interpretation to be wrong, but you sincerely believe it is what God is saying, so you must follow it - and I respect, and admire, your decision to do so. But I also have the right to follow, not only what I believe Scripture to be saying but what I believe God has called me to do. I have the right to do that without abuse/scorn from other Christians. IF I am disobeying God because I am preaching the Gospel, it is up to God to challenge, rebuke and remove me from that position.
I do not enter these debates to ask for permission to preach or to defend my position and ask "is it ok for me to do this?" The only opinions that matter are those of God and my church - if either were to say "no, you're not doing this", then I wouldn't. I wouldn't argue, say it wasn't fair or try to push for "equality" - I'd simply rejoice in obeying God's will and in not having to spend so much time writing sermons.
But you continually indicate that the 'truth' is 'subjective'. Taking words that are perfectly clear and insisting that they are not.
No I don't. You continually indicate that either you have not read my posts, or you don't understand them.
I look forward to you explaining these "perfectly clear" Scriptures to me and answering my questions.
