Paul's limited understanding!

[ScottA]

I can't imagine anyone agreeing with Righttruth. Nothing he said in this entire thread was the right truth - not one thing - zero. But, as they say, ignorance is bliss. I pray that everyone will see that the truth is not in him.

All scripture is inspired (God-breathed) by God, 2 Timothy 3:16. God said He would preserve His word to every generation, Psalms 12:6-7, and He has. The entire Bible is the only guaranteed source of truth in the world. It is without error. You either take all of it or none of it. Taking only part of it is dangerous because, then, you'll never understand any of it. Once your ignorance is overcome, it flows together as a unit and you realize that every word must be there to make any of it work.

Yes...and even the would-be errors and contradictions are not at all evidence of anything but God's promise that masterfully, His strength is made perfect in weakness.

 

[Righttruth]

I can't imagine anyone agreeing with Righttruth. Nothing he said in this entire thread was the right truth - not one thing - zero. But, as they say, ignorance is bliss. I pray that everyone will see that the truth is not in him.

All scripture is inspired (God-breathed) by God, 2 Timothy 3:16. God said He would preserve His word to every generation, Psalms 12:6-7, and He has. The entire Bible is the only guaranteed source of truth in the world. It is without error. You either take all of it or none of it. Taking only part of it is dangerous because, then, you'll never understand any of it. Once your ignorance is overcome, it flows together as a unit and you realize that every word must be there to make any of it work.

Quoting Paul to defend him is not scriptural according to your own understanding. Canon is man-made.

 

[Righttruth]

Yes...and even the would-be errors and contradictions are not at all evidence of anything but God's promise that masterfully, His strength is made perfect in weakness.

It is important to know what was the weakness of Paul and his limited understanding by comparing with the preaching of Jesus and His chosen apostles.

 

[St_Worm2]

It is important to know what was the weakness of Paul and his limited understanding by comparing with the preaching of Jesus and His chosen apostles.

Back at it again, eh RT Here, for the what now, 10,000,000,000th time, is what Jesus and His chosen Apostles had to say to us about St. Paul:

The Lord Himself converted & called St. Paul to "bear His name" before the world

"The Lord said to [Ananias], 'Go, for he [Paul] is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel'" Acts 9:15​

The Church and Council at Jerusalem sent their best, their "beloved"

"They [which included St. Peter & St. James, BTW] sent this letter by them, 'The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings. Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.'" Acts 15:23-26​

Later, St. Peter teaches the Saints to

"Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16​

Paul Defends His Ministry in Galatians 1

11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it;
14 and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions.
15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, was pleased
16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus.
18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days.
19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.
20 (Now in what I am writing to you, I assure you before God that I am not lying.)
21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.
22 I was still unknown by sight to the churches of Judea which were in Christ;
23 but only, they kept hearing, “He who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith which he once tried to destroy.”
24 And they were glorifying God because of me.​

It seems St. Paul was loved and trusted by the Apostles, the Elders, and those in the church at Jerusalem that knew him so well (and they trusted him to lead and teach and build the churches outside of Jerusalem in their stead). He clearly knew both Peter and James personally, and they not only thought and wrote very highly of him, they never contradicted what he said (though they clearly could have and SHOULD have, if any of it was a lie .. Galatians being the earliest letter written in the NT .. but they went on to praise him and refer to his Epistles as "Scripture").

Also, the Lord in a very miraculous manner stopped St. Paul in his tracks for a very specific purpose. If St. Paul became the liar and deceiver that you say He did and failed to do what the Lord called him to do, why wouldn't the Lord have simply stopped him in his tracks again

As for St. Paul's, "limited understanding", that you spoke of, it seems to me instead that no one knew more than him .. who received his knowledge and understanding of the faith directly from the Lord who, along with the Holy Spirit, taught, called, and sent him out as Their representative to help build Their fledgling church!

Apparently the Apostles and the Elders in Jerusalem felt that he and his understanding of the faith were both trustworthy as well since they sent St. Paul to several churches in Asia to clear up the incorrect teaching that they had previously received there .. Acts 15:24-25.

And as for "weakness" (that you claim was a big problem for St. Paul), the Lord had this to say to him (and apparently to you now as well), “My grace is sufficient for thee: for My strength is made perfect in weakness." 2 Corinthians 12:9

Sadly, there appears to be a bit of confusion here. It seems that either, 1) Jesus, the Holy Spirit, His chosen apostles, and the entire 1st Century Church were all confused or 2) you are

Yours and His,
David

 

[Righttruth]

Back at it again, eh RT Here, for the what now, 10,000,000,000th time, is what Jesus and His chosen Apostles had to say to us about St. Paul:

The Lord Himself converted & called St. Paul to "bear His name" before the world

"The Lord said to [Ananias], 'Go, for he [Paul] is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel'" Acts 9:15​

The Church and Council at Jerusalem sent their best, their "beloved"

"They [which included St. Peter & St. James, BTW] sent this letter by them, 'The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings. Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.'" Acts 15:23-26​

Later, St. Peter teaches the Saints to

"Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16​

Paul Defends His Ministry in Galatians 1

11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it;
14 and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions.
15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, was pleased
16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus.
18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days.
19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.
20 (Now in what I am writing to you, I assure you before God that I am not lying.)
21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.
22 I was still unknown by sight to the churches of Judea which were in Christ;
23 but only, they kept hearing, “He who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith which he once tried to destroy.”
24 And they were glorifying God because of me.​

It seems St. Paul was loved and trusted by the Apostles, the Elders, and those in the church at Jerusalem that knew him so well (and they trusted him to lead and teach and build the churches outside of Jerusalem in their stead). He clearly knew both Peter and James personally, and they not only thought and wrote very highly of him, they never contradicted what he said (though they clearly could have and SHOULD have, if any of it was a lie .. Galatians being the earliest letter written in the NT .. but they went on to praise him and refer to his Epistles as "Scripture").

Also, the Lord in a very miraculous manner stopped St. Paul in his tracks for a very specific purpose. If St. Paul became the liar and deceiver that you say He did and failed to do what the Lord called him to do, why wouldn't the Lord have simply stopped him in his tracks again

As for St. Paul's, "limited understanding", that you spoke of, it seems to me instead that no one knew more than him .. who received his knowledge and understanding of the faith directly from the Lord who, along with the Holy Spirit, taught, called, and sent him out as Their representative to help build Their fledgling church!

Apparently the Apostles and the Elders in Jerusalem felt that he and his understanding of the faith were both trustworthy as well since they sent St. Paul to several churches in Asia to clear up the incorrect teaching that they had previously received there .. Acts 15:24-25.

And as for "weakness" (that you claim was a big problem for St. Paul), the Lord had this to say to him (and apparently to you now as well), “My grace is sufficient for thee: for My strength is made perfect in weakness." 2 Corinthians 12:9

Sadly, there appears to be a bit of confusion here. It seems that either, 1) Jesus, the Holy Spirit, His chosen apostles, and the entire 1st Century Church were all confused or 2) you are

Yours and His,
David

Jesus called him a chosen instrument, not an apostle. Peter also did not call him an apostle. Jesus never asked to observe His communion as remembrance of His death! Jesus also did not confine Paul to Gentiles, not did He ask him to stop baptizing.

Who do you believe for your salvation? Jesus or Paul?

 

[ac28]

Jesus called him a chosen instrument, not an apostle. Peter also did not call him an apostle. Jesus never asked to observe His communion as remembrance of His death! Jesus also did not confine Paul to Gentiles, not did He ask him to stop baptizing.

Who do you believe for your salvation? Jesus or Paul?

I definitely believe Paul for my salvation. When someone asked Jesus how to get saved, Jesus told him to keep the commandments. At that time, that worked for Israel, the only people Christ preached to during his 3-1/2 year earthly ministry, but it doesn't work for today. If you rely on keeping the commandments or doing works for your salvation, you are lost. The only thing that saves today is Paul's gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. And you find in Ephesians 2:8-9 that no works are required. All you need do is believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. During the Gospels, the 12 were not allowed to preach to Gentiles - it was 100% to Israel - Matthew 10:5, Matthew 15:24. Jesus was a minister of the circumcision - Romans 15:8.

Every word in the Bible is inspired (God-breathed). Paul's words are just as inspired as Christ's words. If you don't believe Paul, you have an incomplete Bible and you are probably not saved. Christ's ministry was to Israel. The ministry of both Paul and the 12 during the Acts period was to Israel for the purpose of convincing Israel, as a nation, to accept Christ as the promised Messiah. This didn't happen and, for their unbelief, Israel was temporarily set aside in Acts of the apostles 28:28. At that point the salvation of God was taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles. Paul is THE apostle to the Gentiles, the uncircumcision, and the 12 were apostles to the circumcision (Israel). However, since Israel hasn't been God's people for the last 2000 years and everyone is a Gentile in God's eyes, there is only one apostle for us today - PAUL.

 

[Righttruth]

I definitely believe Paul for my salvation. When someone asked Jesus how to get saved, Jesus told him to keep the commandments. At that time, that worked for Israel, the only people Christ preached to during his 3-1/2 year earthly ministry, but it doesn't work for today. If you rely on keeping the commandments or doing works for your salvation, you are lost. The only thing that saves today is Paul's gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. And you find in Ephesians 2:8-9 that no works are required. All you need do is believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. During the Gospels, the 12 were not allowed to preach to Gentiles - it was 100% to Israel - Matthew 10:5, Matthew 15:24. Jesus was a minister of the circumcision - Romans 15:8.

Every word in the Bible is inspired (God-breathed). Paul's words are just as inspired as Christ's words. If you don't believe Paul, you have an incomplete Bible and you are probably not saved. Christ's ministry was to Israel. The ministry of both Paul and the 12 during the Acts period was to Israel for the purpose of convincing Israel, as a nation, to accept Christ as the promised Messiah. This didn't happen and, for their unbelief, Israel was temporarily set aside in Acts of the apostles 28:28. At that point the salvation of God was taken from Israel and given to the Gentiles. Paul is THE apostle to the Gentiles, the uncircumcision, and the 12 were apostles to the circumcision (Israel). However, since Israel hasn't been God's people for the last 2000 years and everyone is a Gentile in God's eyes, there is only one apostle available for us today - PAUL.

Sorry, like, many you have replaced Jesus with Paul. Jesus only saves. Not convenient theories and books and self-claims of Paul. Catholics have replaced Jesus with Mary and Protestants with Paul. Not a big difference when it comes to salvation.

 

[ScottA]

It is important to know what was the weakness of Paul and his limited understanding by comparing with the preaching of Jesus and His chosen apostles.

I wasn't referring to Paul, but to God. It is God who has chosen the weak to confound the haughty. Those who find fault in people and say that God is not strong because of their weakness, or look at the world and think that He is subject to corruption and the ways of men, do not know God. All these things are perfection.

 

[ac28]

Sorry, like, many you have replaced Jesus with Paul. Jesus only saves. Not convenient theories and books and self-claims of Paul. Catholics have replaced Jesus with Mary and Protestants with Paul. Not a big difference when it comes to salvation.

Only Jesus saves. That's 100% true. Paul tells you how to get saved through Jesus Christ only. That's something you'll never learn if you believe only the red-letter words.

I certainly haven't replaced Christ with anyone. Christ is not replaceable. You seem to think this is a competition. My reverence toward Christ is as strong as yours or anyone else's - He is my first love, my Lord, and my Savior. Paul knew more about the mystery of Christ, which was hidden in the OT prophets, than any other author. By disregarding Paul, you are missing out in all of the hidden glories of the mystery of Christ. The reason Christ and Paul teach different things is because they were preaching to different types of people. This is called "rightly dividing" in 2 Timothy 2:15. All of Paul's preaching is Christ-centered. Without Paul, your knowledge of Christ is extremely limited.

 

[St_Worm2]

Jesus called him a chosen instrument, not an apostle. Peter also did not call him an apostle. Jesus never asked to observe His communion as remembrance of His death! Jesus also did not confine Paul to Gentiles, not did He ask him to stop baptizing. Who do you believe for your salvation? Jesus or Paul?

Hi Rt, who do I believe? I believe Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, Jude (and the rest of the human authors of the Bible because everything they wrote finds its origins with God, the true "Breather" and "Author" of the word of God, every dot and tittle). Jesus wrote a little bit too, in both the NT and, of course, in the OT but, unlike the OT, we don't know what He wrote (or drew) on the ground in the midst of the madmen.

Nevertheless, I trust that the words of St. Paul's Epistles are written exactly as the Lord intended them to be (they being 'His' breathed words), just like the words written by St. Matthew and St. John are exactly as God intended them to be

Neither Jesus nor the Apostle Peter referred to anyone directly as "Apostle" (so they were both consistent in their treatment of the Apostle Paul).

Communion "remembrance"? Concerning this Jesus instructs us by saying:

“This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” Luke 22:19​

Jesus told Ananias that the Apostle Paul would, "bear His Name before the Gentiles, kings, and the sons of Israel". And that he did, beginning with Jews (cf Romans 1:16), and then eventually with the Gentiles and the kings of this world as well. But he NEVER turned from the Jews "entirely", rather, he no longer preached to and evangelized his own people, "exclusively". He, in fact, consistently ministered to both Jew and Greek THROUGHOUT all three of his missionary journeys (as I know you are already well aware of).

In case you have forgotten however, here are some of the details of the Apostle Paul's missionary life following Acts 13:46 (where he declares to the Jews that he is turning to the Gentiles). Notice that his very first stop after saying that is a Jewish synagogue in Iconium, where he led both Jews and Greeks to the faith. And so he continued to do as the Lord led throughout the balance of his life

Iconium:

They (Paul and Barnabas) entered the synagogue of the Jews together...........and they spoke in such a manner that a large number of people believed, both Jews and Greeks" Acts of the Apostles 14:1​

Berea:

The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. Acts 17:10​

Athens:

While Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was being provoked within him as he was observing the city full of idols. So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present." Acts 17:16–17​

Corinth:

1 After these things he left Athens and went to Corinth.
2 And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, having recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. He came to them,
3 and because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and they were working, for by trade they were tent-makers.
4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
5 But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. Acts 18​

11 And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
12 But while Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews with one accord rose up against Paul and brought him before the judgment seat,
13 saying, “This man persuades men to worship God contrary to the law.”
14 But when Paul was about to open his mouth, Gallio said to the Jews, “If it were a matter of wrong or of vicious crime, O Jews, it would be reasonable for me to put up with you;
15 but if there are questions about words and names and your own law, look after it yourselves; I am unwilling to be a judge of these matters.” Acts 18​

Ephesus:

19 They came to Ephesus, and he left them there. Now he himself entered the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews.Acts 18

8 And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
9 But when some were becoming hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the people, he withdrew from them and took away the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.
10 This took place for two years, so that all who lived in Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.
Acts 19​

Finally, concerning the Apostle Paul and his baptizing of people, he does mention being glad that he was not the one who baptized 'most' of the problem believers in Corinth (1 Corinthians 1:10-17), but to the best of my knowledge, there is no mention anywhere (in his Epistles or anyone else's) that even insinuates that he stopped choosing to baptize people.

You seem an intelligent man Rt, but in all that you've claimed in this thread regarding the Apostle Paul, you (and the book against the Apostle Paul that you've been promoting here) have been shown, again and again, to be BADLY mistaken! So the question that needs to be asked is this, why are you continuing to promote ideas about St. Paul that you KNOW are wrong

Yours and His,
David

 

[Righttruth]

I wasn't referring to Paul, but to God. It is God who has chosen the weak to confound the haughty. Those who find fault in people and say that God is not strong because of their weakness, or look at the world and think that He is subject to corruption and the ways of men, do not know God. All these things are perfection.

I was referring to Paul and his self-claims.

 

[Righttruth]

Only Jesus saves. That's 100% true. Paul tells you how to get saved through Jesus Christ only. That's something you'll never learn if you believe only the red-letter words.

Don't you believe the red letters? I believe all black if they complement the red; rest I reject or consider that as redundant.

I certainly haven't replaced Christ with anyone. Christ is not replaceable. You seem to think this is a competition. My reverence toward Christ is as strong as yours or anyone else's - He is my first love, my Lord, and my Savior. Paul knew more about the mystery of Christ, which was hidden in the OT prophets, than any other author. By disregarding Paul, you are missing out in all of the hidden glories of the mystery of Christ. The reason Christ and Paul teach different things is because they were preaching to different types of people. This is called "rightly dividing" in 2 Timothy 2:15. All of Paul's preaching is Christ-centered. Without Paul, your knowledge of Christ is extremely limited.

How much of Jesus Paul knew apart from his suppositions? Jesus never asked Paul to preach to one type of people only to begin with.

 

[Righttruth]

Hi Rt, who do I believe? I believe Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, Jude (and the rest of the human authors of the Bible because everything they wrote finds its origins with God, the true "Breather" and "Author" of the word of God, every dot and tittle). Jesus wrote a little bit too, in both the NT and, of course, in the OT but, unlike the OT, we don't know what He wrote (or drew) on the ground in the midst of the madmen.

I consider all when they complement the preaching of Jesus. Isn't that interesting that Jesus' writings are absent, and what He wrote on the sand remained unknown? It is clear indication of the role of the Holy Spirit that would follow.

Nevertheless, I trust that the words of St. Paul's Epistles are written exactly as the Lord intended them to be (they being 'His' breathed words), just like the words written by St. Matthew and St. John are exactly as God intended them to be

That is an inference drawn after men decided on the canon.

Neither Jesus nor the Apostle Peter referred to anyone directly as "Apostle" (so they were both consistent in their treatment of the Apostle Paul).

Jesus clearly set apart twelve as apostles for a specific role. He couldn't have considered anyone other than 12 as an apostle. Number 12 is fixed. Paul cannot make subdivisions. No wonder Paul's people are bent upon making subdivisions and trend has continued. John indicates that anyone claiming apostleship as a liar.

Communion "remembrance"? Concerning this Jesus instructs us by saying:

“This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” Luke 22:19​

A little research will show that these words were later insertions.​

Jesus told Ananias that the Apostle Paul would, "bear His Name before the Gentiles, kings, and the sons of Israel". And that he did, beginning with Jews (cf Romans 1:16), and then eventually with the Gentiles and the kings of this world as well. But he NEVER turned from the Jews "entirely", rather, he no longer preached to and evangelized his own people, "exclusively". He, in fact, consistently ministered to both Jew and Greek THROUGHOUT all three of his missionary journeys (as I know you are already well aware of).

That was at the beginning before taking his own defined shortcut.

In case you have forgotten however, here are some of the details of the Apostle Paul's missionary life following Acts 13:46 (where he declares to the Jews that he is turning to the Gentiles). Notice that his very first stop after saying that is a Jewish synagogue in Iconium, where he led both Jews and Greeks to the faith. And so he continued to do as the Lord led throughout the balance of his life

Iconium:

They (Paul and Barnabas) entered the synagogue of the Jews together...........and they spoke in such a manner that a large number of people believed, both Jews and Greeks" Acts of the Apostles 14:1​

Berea:

The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. Acts 17:10​

Athens:

While Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was being provoked within him as he was observing the city full of idols. So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present." Acts 17:16–17​

Corinth:

1 After these things he left Athens and went to Corinth.
2 And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, having recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. He came to them,
3 and because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and they were working, for by trade they were tent-makers.
4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
5 But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. Acts 18​

11 And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
12 But while Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews with one accord rose up against Paul and brought him before the judgment seat,
13 saying, “This man persuades men to worship God contrary to the law.”
14 But when Paul was about to open his mouth, Gallio said to the Jews, “If it were a matter of wrong or of vicious crime, O Jews, it would be reasonable for me to put up with you;
15 but if there are questions about words and names and your own law, look after it yourselves; I am unwilling to be a judge of these matters.” Acts 18​

Ephesus:

19 They came to Ephesus, and he left them there. Now he himself entered the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews.Acts 18

8 And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
9 But when some were becoming hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the people, he withdrew from them and took away the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.
10 This took place for two years, so that all who lived in Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.
Acts 19​

One source will not help in finding the truth. God did give four books of the Gospel for understanding the truth better.​

Finally, concerning the Apostle Paul and his baptizing of people, he does mention being glad that he was not the one who baptized 'most' of the problem believers in Corinth (1 Corinthians 1:10-17), but to the best of my knowledge, there is no mention anywhere (in his Epistles or anyone else's) that even insinuates that he stopped choosing to baptize people.

This may help in understanding his unabated self-declarations:

1 Corinthians 1
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

You seem an intelligent man Rt, but in all that you've claimed in this thread regarding the Apostle Paul, you (and the book against the Apostle Paul that you've been promoting here) have been shown, again and again, to be BADLY mistaken! So the question that needs to be asked is this, why are you continuing to promote ideas about St. Paul that you KNOW are wrong

Yours and His,
David

I am concerned about truth, not bothered with intelligence which can be seen in Protestant 'knowledge factories'. I am not promoting that book. Nothing wrong in considering all sources for the sake of the truth. Why should we give importance to the appendix ignoring the main parts?

 

[ac28]

Everything written in the entire Bible compliments everything Christ said. All the Bible is Jesus Christ. He appears in the 1st verse in Genesis as the creator and in the last chapter in Revelation as the Alpha and Omega. Enlightenment will only come to you when you realize that every Word in the Bible is truth. At present, you are picking and choosing based on your own very limited knowledge.

Unlike any of the 12 apostles, throughout his ministry Paul constantly received new information in the form of revelations directly from Jesus Christ. Paul's ministry changed due to these revelations.
Galatians 1:12, Galatians 2:2, Ephesians 3:3, 2 Corinthians 12:1, 2 Corinthians 12:7

Think about it. When Christ was alive, He preached only to Israel and not to the Gentiles. At that time, salvation was only of the Jews (and Gentile proselytes) John 4:22. In fact, he told the 12 not to go to the Gentiles. Matthew 10:6, Matthew 15:8. Christ was 100% a minister only to Israel, the circumcision - Romans 15:8

After His death, everything changed. For the first 7 years, or so, all the preaching was to Israel through the 12 Jewish apostles. Then, Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ on the Damascus Road. Paul was the first apostle preaching to the Gentiles and is the only author in the Bible who writes directly to the Gentiles.

Today, Israel are no longer God's people (but will be again in the future). They lost that privilege when they rejected Jesus Christ during the Acts period. Today, everyone is a Gentile in God's eyes and the only books in the Bible written directly to us today are the last 7 books Paul wrote: Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1&2 Timothy, Titus, and Philemon.

 

[Righttruth]

Everything written in the entire Bible compliments everything Christ said. All the Bible is Jesus Christ. He appears in the 1st verse in Genesis as the creator and in the last chapter in Revelation as the Alpha and Omega. Enlightenment will only come to you when you realize that every Word in the Bible is truth. At present, you are picking and choosing based on your own very limited knowledge.

Unlike any of the 12 apostles, throughout his ministry Paul constantly received new information in the form of revelations directly from Jesus Christ. Paul's ministry changed due to these revelations.

Galatians 1:12, Galatians 2:2, Ephesians 3:3, 2 Corinthians 12:1, 2 Corinthians 12:7

Self-claims unsupported by other sources by a rank outsider cannot be accepted when they are against the preaching of Jesus. Scholarly suppositions don't have any spiritual value.

 

[ac28]

You're the rank outsider, with zero proofs for your absurd self-claims. Your self-claims have zero spiritual value. They are extremely anti-Holy Spirit, anti-God's Word, anti-Christ, anti-knowledge, and anti-intelligence.

 

[Righttruth]

You're the rank outsider, with zero proofs for your absurd self-claims. Your self-claims have zero spiritual value. They are extremely anti-Holy Spirit, anti-God's Word, anti-Christ, anti-knowledge, and anti-intelligence.

Yes, it is foolishness to people who tag onto Paul blindly with his convenient and comfortable suppositions.

 

[St_Worm2]

I consider all when they complement the preaching of Jesus. Isn't that interesting that Jesus' writings are absent, and what He wrote on the sand remained unknown? It is clear indication of the role of the Holy Spirit that would follow.

Hi Rt, the problem is that by your measure and method of showing what does and does not "complement" Jesus' preaching, Jesus' own words could be shown to contradict themselves!!

"Writings" of Jesus while He was here among us? What are you talking about

That is an inference drawn after men decided on the canon.

The entire Bible was considered to be the breathed words of God long before we established the Canon.

Jesus clearly set apart twelve as apostles for a specific role. He couldn't have considered anyone other than 12 as an apostle. Number 12 is fixed. Paul cannot make subdivisions. No wonder Paul's people are bent upon making subdivisions and trend has continued. John indicates that anyone claiming apostleship as a liar.

By your method of counting, Matthias makes 13. The Bible makes it clear that the name "apostle" was used of others and not the original 12 alone, which again, we went over earlier in this thread.

A little research will show that these words were later insertions.

What a "little research" reveals is that 1) this is a claim made by very recent anti-Pauline scholarship and 2) it is a theory without evidence. This was also shown to you earlier in this thread!

​

That was at the beginning before taking his own defined shortcut.

The Biblical evidence posited above from chapter after chapter of Acts shows that St. Paul consistently preached to both Jews and Greeks throughout all three of his missionary journeys (which covers a span of decades beyond his Acts 13:46 declaration to also evangelize the Nations while he continued his ministry to the Jews). Why do you continue to make claims that are not only false, but claims that we also know that you know are false? What gain could there possibly be for you in doing this

One source will not help in finding the truth. God did give four books of the Gospel for understanding the truth better.

God gave us 66 Books, not just four All 66 are God's breathed words. And on top of that, what you are arguing against are simple historical facts (dates and places), not difficult theological concepts. The Bible certainly give us more information about St. Paul's life, but far less than St. Luke's multi-chapter account would be needed to show how very mistaken you are!

This may help in understanding his unabated self-declarations:

17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

The above only helps us understand what lengths you will go to in an attempt to get others to believe your false claims. Why are you continuing this rant against St. Paul and His Epistles when you know that NONE of it is true

I am concerned about truth, not bothered with intelligence which can be seen in Protestant 'knowledge factories'. I am not promoting that book. Nothing wrong in considering all sources for the sake of the truth. Why should we give importance to the appendix ignoring the main parts?

Clearly you are concerned with anything BUT the truth because YOUR "truth" stands in sharp contrast to that which is taught in the Bible and by the church. As for Protestant "knowledge factories", those are such a small part of all that stands against you in what you believe that they are hardly worth mentioning.

Yours and His,
David

 

[Righttruth]

Hi Rt, the problem is that by your measure and method of showing what does and does not "complement" Jesus' preaching, Jesus' own words could be shown to contradict themselves!!

Who is the authority for you? God the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit? It appears that you hold Paul to be authoritative.

"Writings" of Jesus while He was here among us? What are you talking about

Did Jesus write anything like Moses did? Why did He send the Holy Spirit to help us?

The entire Bible was considered to be the breathed words of God long before we established the Canon.

Sorry, Bible came into being by considering a few writings available and ignoring others by different groups of people. That is why we have different Bibles for different groups. It all happened after a few centuries with the ascension of Jesus.

By your method of counting, Matthias makes 13. The Bible makes it clear that the name "apostle" was used of others and not the original 12 alone, which again, we went over earlier in this thread.

You seem to miss out the Peter's reasoning to chose Matthias after the death of Judas Iscariot. Poor Paul never knew that and he couldn't have qualified to become an apostle in the first place let alone a subdivision of apostleship. Paul stands for division which is Satanic. That is why Pauline Christians are thousands of divided groups.

What a "little research" reveals is that 1) this is a claim made by very recent anti-Pauline scholarship and 2) it is a theory without evidence. This was also shown to you earlier in this thread!

No, many old manuscripts don't contain those statements.

The Biblical evidence posited above from chapter after chapter of Acts shows that St. Paul consistently preached to both Jews and Greeks throughout all three of his missionary journeys (which covers a span of decades beyond his Acts 13:46 declaration to also evangelize the Nations while he continued his ministry to the Jews). Why do you continue to make claims that are not only false, but claims that we also know that you know are false? What gain could there possibly be for you in doing this

You are denying even the words of Paul. There is nothing like an apostle for Gentiles. Gospel is meant for all. Paul was chosen for that purpose only.

Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

Acts 18
6 But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."

God gave us 66 Books, not just four All 66 are God's breathed words. And on top of that, what you are arguing against are simple historical facts (dates and places), not difficult theological concepts. The Bible certainly give us more information about St. Paul's life, but far less than St. Luke's multi-chapter account would be needed to show how very mistaken you are!

An infinite God cannot limit Himself to more or less 66 books. St. Luke stands in a better position than St. Paul in understanding the Gospel.

The above only helps us understand what lengths you will go to in an attempt to get others to believe your false claims. Why are you continuing this rant against St. Paul and His Epistles when you know that NONE of it is true

It is my duty like a child to show that the king is naked or the tail is wagging the dog!

Clearly you are concerned with anything BUT the truth because YOUR "truth" stands in sharp contrast to that which is taught in the Bible and by the church. As for Protestant "knowledge factories", those are such a small part of all that stands against you in what you believe that they are hardly worth mentioning.

Church settles for easy traditions and rituals diverting from the preaching of Jesus. It will be busy filling up the coffers by all methods.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Did Jesus write anything like Moses did? Why did He send the Holy Spirit to help us?

I have to ask at this point: What exactly did Jesus write? Do you have access to some secret writings that the rest of us Christians don't? If so, please lay them out for us so that we can read and evaluate them also. If you don't have any of "Jesus' writings" just admit it and move on and quit wasting people's time over something that does not exist.