Churchgoer kills churchgoer over 'saved seats' scuffle

[Belk]

No, you can direct them to the verses which prove God does use physical violence against his enemies and that his saints are part of his army.

Then unless you are claiming that everyone who claims to be a Christian is a saint and it is the second coming it seems to me the "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies" portion of the bible is still in effect, yes?

 

[ewq1938]

Then unless you are claiming that everyone who claims to be a Christian is a saint and it is the second coming it seems to me the "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies" portion of the bible is still in effect, yes?

It is in effect but it doesn't apply to the kind of enemies we think of like ISIS and Nazi's etc. I used to work with a guy I couldn't stand who persecuted and harassed me all the time. He was my enemy in a lesser sense than the other two examples given. We are commanded to love that kind of enemy but I disagree we are to love the more dangerous kind.

 

[Belk]

It is in effect but it doesn't apply to the kind of enemies we think of like ISIS and Nazi's etc. I used to work with a guy I couldn't stand who persecuted and harassed me all the time. He was my enemy in a lesser sense than the other two examples given. We are commanded to love that kind of enemy but I disagree we are to love the more dangerous kind.

I must have missed where Jesus made that distinction. Perhaps you could tell me the relevant verses? And do you think that this individual who was shot feel into the later category?

 

[ewq1938]

I must have missed where Jesus made that distinction. Perhaps you could tell me the relevant verses?

Same verses we are discussing.

And do you think that this individual who was shot feel into the later category?

Yes he was dangerous and self defense was appropriate.

 

[rambot]

I have nothing saved but in the past I have read some good works on this. Ultimately it's a matter of interpretation. I'll try to search again and see if I can re-find anything helpful.

Swords were either for offense, defense or used as tools. I reject that the disciples were committing offensive crimes so their swords were for defense and tools. What prophecy do you speak of?

That he would be numbered among the transgressors (and he refers to the OT verse at the end of the passage)

Yet in this thread has "Jesus is the prince of peace" been thrown at me. My position is to show the side of Jesus many like to ignore or avoid.

He is the prince of peace here on earth.

I think we are expected to participate. Jesus returns with all the saints and in other scripture it is said the armies of heaven come with him so I believe the saints are part of his army and you know what an army is for.

I think one of the cruxes of the problem with this discussion is that you have a straight across exchange as to the idea of what our lives look like when God leads us in the after life and what Jesus did (and what is expected of us) here on earth. I believe there are different contexts that call us to behaviour in different ways.

There is no judgment. He was able and willing to use violence against enemies of God. The whip was minor by comparison of what is coming.

Discernment then.

It shows at least when you were younger you acted as a bully. That is not the same thing because Christ is justified to punish or kill his enemies but being a bully is not.

So it speaks to a SPECIFIC context and it is not necessarily relevant to who I am right nowÉ (sorry, I canèt use some of the punctuation buttons properly for some reason...)

 

[RDKirk]

There are occasions where a person may reserve seats in a church, such as if they have family down and so need a minimum-sized pew if they are all to sit together.

Alternatively, a person may - as the article indicates - simply set their stuff down to hold a seat before walking elsewhere, such as to the bathroom.

That being said, the minute the person flashed his concealed-carry permit he needlessly escalated the situation to the point of no return.

Actually, it wasn't a permit he flashed, but an "I have a permit" badge. These things are sold mail order in the backs of gun magazines.

This incident has been discussed on a couple of gun forums I frequent, and the absolute unanimous opinion of other gun owners is that these gun permit badges are the most utterly asinine things in the world. They can do absolutely nothing but get you into trouble. Well, maybe get you laughed at first, and then into trouble.

But they're advertised, so there must be sufficient dunderheads buying them, just like there must be someone responding to the "Nigerian prince needs your help" email scams.

 

[RDKirk]

The pastor may have some work to do.

"
A church member tapped Braxton on the shoulder to tell him the seats he was in were reserved.

Another couple put down two Bibles to save their spots before walking away.

Braxton replied to the tap by saying: 'Don't ****** touch me!' according to court documents.

Kevin Steele said Storms approached Braxton, showed his carry permit and asked him to leave.

He added that Braxton punched Storms, who then fired two shots.
"

You left out the part that the ushers had Braxton calmed down before Storms approached.

 

[ewq1938]

That he would be numbered among the transgressors (and he refers to the OT verse at the end of the passage)

That has nothing to do with a sword. The Jews choose Christ to be crucified and Pilate bent to their wishes...he was also threatened by them. He was numbered with two transgressors identified as thieves.

 

[ewq1938]

You left out the part that the ushers had Braxton calmed down before Storms approached.

Yet when he was told he was in someone else's seat did he say, "Oh sorry I didn't realize that Brother. Thanks for letting me know." Nope, he went bananas which was in form with his reckless behavior there that day. He is the issue and problem from start to finish.

 

[RDKirk]

Seeing that Richard Braxton's funeral is being held at the same church where he was killed, it appears that his family were members of that church.
What I haven't seen is if the shooter was a member of that church.

I don't see anywhere in the article where anyone tried to intervene?

You didn't see these sentences in the linked article? The situation had been brought under control merely by leaving Braxton alone.

Hendrie said the associate pastor whispered to calm Braxton down and they then all left him by himself.
Shortly after that Storms walked over from the back and stood in front of him and said, "Let's go outside, let's go outside."

Braxton told him, "No, I ain't going nowhere with you." Hendrie said he saw Storms hold something up in front of his body, step back, and started patting his right side showing the imprint of a handgun through his shirt. After seeing that he said he told his family to get on the ground. He said he heard a sound like a fist hitting flesh and then Storms pull out his gun. Braxton ran around the chairs in front of him and he heard two shots.

Connie Gibson told police that she intervened during the confrontation between Braxton and the ushers and she asked if she could sit with him. She said that Braxton had calmed down and stopped yelling until he was approached by Storms.


Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/m...wl-sunday-service-163026/#rvqQ3VRDMBBoYorr.99

 

[RDKirk]

Yet when he was told he was in someone else's seat did he say, "Oh sorry I didn't realize that Brother. Thanks for letting me know." Nope, he went bananas which was in form with his reckless behavior there that day. He is the issue and problem from start to finish.

He had calmed down. Eyewitnesses point out that the ushers and an associate pastor had calmed him down.

 

[ewq1938]

He had calmed down. Eyewitnesses point out that the ushers and an associate pastor had calmed him down.

He still had an explosive attitude obviously. If someone behind me let me know I was in someone's seat I wouldn't have reacted like he did. No one in their right mind would have acted like he did, that's the point.

 

[RDKirk]

That's not what the reports say. Storm showed him the carry permit and he was assaulted then he drew his weapon in self defense. I haven't read any that say he had the gun out before being punched.

I'm not sure about the details of that state's laws, but in Texas Storms would be in trouble.

According to witnesses, the situation had been calmed without violence before Storms got involved. The witnesses have states that Storms flashed a fake "carry permit badge" (no such legal thing in any state) and then revealed the presence of his gun when neither he nor anyone else was faced by any threat to himself at that point--and that according to the witnesses.

In Texas, that's considered a threat, and a deadly one. At that point, the self defense argument shifted to Braxton, and Storms' claim of self-defense at that point is explicitly denied by Texas law.

 

[RDKirk]

http://www.inquisitr.com/3049518/di...-montgomery-county-pennsylvania-church-video/


"After an assistant pastor and ushers had tried to calm Braxton, Storms walked up to him, and according to witnesses, showed Braxton his Concealed Weapons Permit badge to indicate that he was carrying a weapon."


"Storms reportedly told police investigators that he showed Braxton his concealed carry badge because he thought it would help to calm him down. According to Storms, showing his badge and indicating he was armed had defused tense situations in the past."

This means the gun was not drawn yet, only this badge.

That is a threat (those carry permit badges are bogus as they come), as was deliberately "printing" his gun--which witnesses account he did.

 

[RDKirk]

He still had an explosive attitude obviously. If someone behind me let me know I was in someone's seat I wouldn't have reacted like he did. No one in their right mind would have acted like he did, that's the point.

So let's presume he was a man not in his right mind who had somehow found his way to a church pew...the best place he could possibly be ('cause I believe in the Holy Spirit).

Being left alone, he had calmed down (as reported by the witnesses). The ushers and the pastor were satisfied with leaving him alone.

There was no reason for Braxton to get involved. You seem to think that the fact he was sitting with an attitude meant that he needed to have been ejected whether he was continuing to cause a problem or not.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not sure about the details of that state's laws, but in Texas Storms would be in trouble.

According to witnesses, the situation had been calmed without violence before Storms got involved. The witnesses have states that Storms flashed a fake "carry permit badge" (no such legal thing in any state) and then revealed the presence of his gun when neither he nor anyone else was faced by any threat to himself at that point--and that according to the witnesses.

In Texas, that's considered a threat, and a deadly one. At that point, the self defense argument shifted to Braxton, and Storms' claim of self-defense at that point is explicitly denied by Texas law.

Weird, I don't see you mentioning Storm being hit before he acted in self defense. He didn't do anything wrong by "getting involved" which was merely letting the guy know he was in someone's seat. Braxton elevated everything causing Storm to let him know he was armed. Braxton continued to elevate the situation violently forcing Storm to use his firearm in self defense. Case closed.

 

[ewq1938]

That is a threat

It's a fair warning not a threat.

 

[ewq1938]

There was no reason for Braxton to get involved.

Yes there was, the man was in someone else's seat.

 

[RDKirk]

You don't know what you are talking about. The permit allows you to have a weapon concealed. It doesn't forbid you from showing the permit to anyone and it's not wrong to let a disturbed person know you are armed in order to try to get them to not be violent.

What state's laws are you quoting? That would be an offense in Texas and Florida.[/QUOTE]

 

[RDKirk]

Yes there was, the man was in someone else's seat.

My Lord. My sweet Lord.