POLL: Which of these elements of the creation story do you believe?

[StanJ]

Except back in genesis 1 on days 1-3 the moon and hence lunar cycle was not made yet. So it is hard to measure the cycles at that point as being exactly the same length in today's time when the moon was not even made yet. Nowhere does it say how long the cycles are in days 1-4 in today's human time.

Actually the lunar cycle was in effect as soon as God created the universe. God created day and night on the first day, v3-5, so the day and night was already effective in day one.

This connotation is not absolute and in all places, as 2 Peter 3:8 shows. In Genesis 1 we are talking about a much different context than the normal days of today. we are talking about a time when the luna and sola were not even made then to count how long a solar day was.

As I already explained that is not a fact. Hebrew scholars in general interpret yom in Genesis 1 to be an actual day as we perceive it today, which is confirmed in Exodus 20. Connotations always have to be based on the context of the text they are used in. In the context of 2nd Peter 3, it is referring to how some thought Jesus was delayed in his coming. Please refer to the overall context of verses 3-9. Again the physical attributes of the universe as well as light were created on day 1.

The Bible simply does not say or specify how long a day was in Genesis 1. It is not clear it was a normal sun day or people day if the sun wasn't even made yet and nor were people.

As I'm just showing it is indeed specified based on the actual Hebrew language and when everything was created in day one. I suggest you re-read Genesis 1:1-5.

And then there is 2 Peter 3:8, a day with the Lord is a thousand years with man.
It does not say how long the days were in Genesis 1-4. Are we talking about the Lord's days or Man's days or what? Man was not even around then. So the Bible does not specify how long the days were.

What 2 Peter 3:8 actually says is; But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
Peter is actually quoting Psalm 90:4 here, which is metaphorical in nature and not literal. Also the point is that this is how the Lord perceives time not as we perceive time nor as Moses perceive time when he wrote Genesis 1.

Jesus knew Hebrew directly and spoke Aramaic as his own language. Whatever he said was probably even in Aramaic, a language with very similar roots like Hebrew. It's like god and Dios in two indo european languages when the words are the same. Proper comparison is possible.
In fact, Hebrew Yom is a late Hebrew/Aramaic word:
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3117.htm
So in Jesus' common speech he probably said Yom anyway in the gospels.
Bottom line: Day can mean different lengths of time.

Jesus normally spoke Hebrew and there's only a few passages in the New Testament which indicate that he spoke Aramaic. Regardless of the language they spoke, the New Testament is written in Greek and is not the issue. We're talking about the Hebrew and what it said.

And we haven't even gotten into apocalyptic prophetic "days" yet , as in "that day" when the Messiah comes and "that day" when the apocalypse occurs.

Well that indeed would be a different issue in a different connotation whether it be that day or end of the day of the Lord the context of where does used will determine what exactly it means. The context of where yom is used in Genesis 1 means day as a 24 hour/lunar day.
http://www.icr.org/article/meaning-day-genesis/

 

[StanJ]

I agree, yet I only voted for #5 because we must also be prepared to accept that there may be some misunderstandings about Genesis despite the record of their stubborn persistence.
I lost interest in arguing the "proper" interpretation of Genesis a long time ago. What interests me is understanding why the formation of the universe appears to have taken so long and why it appears life formed through common descent. I'm not saying it did. But I do wonder why it appears that way ... and not the flippant or trite answers many give. But, assuming the sincerest of intentions on the part of those who believe it, why does it appear that way?

Not really sure why you would give up on understanding what the scripture says when we are admonished in scripture to study it?

In any event, how old do you think Adam look like when God created him, and Eve for that matter?

 

[rakovsky]

As I already explained that is not a fact. Hebrew scholars in general interpret yom in Genesis 1 to be an actual day as we perceive it today, which is confirmed in Exodus 20.

Exodus 20 never specifies that the days in Genesis 1 were the same physical length as they were in 1500 BC.


It just says:

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. ​

It never says the days were the same exact length. It can be a prefigurement, and prefigurements are not exact necessarily.

Jesus normally spoke Hebrew and there's only a few passages in the New Testament which indicate that he spoke Aramaic. Regardless of the languagethey spoke, the New Testament is written in Greek and is not the issue. We're talking about the Hebrew and what it said.

I don't agree with you about the speaking Hebrew thing, but if you are right, then you have basically proved my point that "day" can mean different things based on Jesus' Hebrew use of the word day in John's gospel.

Well that indeed would be a different issue in a different connotation whether it be that day or end of the day of the Lord the context of where does used will determine what exactly it means. The context of where yom is used in Genesis 1 means day as a 24 hour/lunar day.
http://www.icr.org/article/meaning-day-genesis/

That website says:
"It is recognized, of course, that the word "day" can be used with a number of variations. It can have any of five meanings: 1) a period of light; 2) a period of 24 hours; 3) a general, vague time; 4) a point of time; 5) a year."

This is pretty much proving my point. Back in Genesis 1 we could be talking about "periods of light", sine the sun wasn't even made yet for the earth to rotate around - or more Biblically, the sun wasn't made yet to revolve around the earth and count out 24 hours.

Next it makes the argument that a day with a number in front of it must be a day in exact 24 hour periods. But this is not necessarily the case. Over in Daniel 9, we see that seven day periods are numbered and counted, yet in fact Daniel is not talking about 24 hour periods of days making up those weeks like in everyday counting. He is talking about weeks of years. I wouldn't be surprised if that happened elsewhere. There's a big debate over whether we must use exact counting for the three days in the tomb's hours. Further, there is a good reason why numbering days after Genesis 1 might be different than those in Genesis 1 - in the latter, the sun that counts those days had not even been made yet. But after Genesis 1 the sun was in place and counting could occur.

Days with a number can be rotations of light and dark, not necessarily 24 hour periods. After all, if the earth's speed were to increase, our days would get shorter. We could end up with 23 hour days. But that does not mean that we would still have to count our days by 24 hours. We go by what the sun says - that is what marks time.

 

[rakovsky]

In any event, how old do you think Adam look like when God created him, and Eve for that matter?

I think she might not think that happened the way you are thinking, since she picked #5.

Her answer could be that God made Adam as a fetus in the womb of a primate.

 

[StanJ]

Exodus 20 never specifies that the days in Genesis 1 were the same physical length as they were in 1500 BC.

Well as Moses wrote both of them, the word yom means the same in Genesis as it does in Exodus. Unless you think the days in Exodus mean thousands of years which the context proves they do not. The same word is used throughout Exodus 20, so unless you are willing to assert that God commanded man to work six thousand years a week then you are really not paying attention to the context of the scripture?

It just says:

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

It never says the days were the same exact length. It can be a prefigurement, and prefigurements are not exact necessarily.

A day is a day is a day and doesn't have to be defined every time it is used unless of course you're trying to use it out of context.

I don't agree with you about the speaking Hebrew thing, but if you are right, then you have basically proved my point that "day" can mean different things based on Jesus' Hebrew use of the word day in John's gospel.

This has nothing to do with you agreeing with me, it has to do with reality, if you don't agree with me then study it and prove your assertion.
I've already given you a clear article as to how yom is used in Genesis 1. If you don't agree with those Scholars and take it up with them.

That website says:
"It is recognized, of course, that the word "day" can be used with a number of variations. It can have any of five meanings: 1) a period of light; 2) a period of 24 hours; 3) a general, vague time; 4) a point of time; 5) a year."
This is pretty much proving my point. Back in Genesis 1 we could be talking about "periods of light", sine the sun wasn't even made yet for the earth to rotate around - or more Biblically, the sun wasn't made yet to revolve around the earth and count out 24 hours.

Any unbiased article worth its salt will always show the other side of the argument. Sadly all you do here is pick something that is said out of context and try to present it as the position of the article which would be at the very least disingenuous. The conclusion of the link is clear
If the meaning of the word "day" with a number always means a 24-hour period of time outside of Genesis 1, then it should also mean a 24-hour period of time inside Genesis 1. The words that Moses used to communicate what God did during creation are very significant. If Moses had meant to signify that the "days" were more than 24 hours in length, he could easily have done so. If we are to understand what Moses wrote, then the language he used must be understood in its normal meaning. The normal meaning is that of 24-hour periods of time.

Next it makes the argument that a day with a number in front of it must be a day in exact 24 hour periods. But this is not necessarily the case. Over in Daniel 9, we see that seven day periods are numbered and counted, yet in fact Daniel is not talking about 24 hour periods of days making up those weeks like in everyday counting. He is talking about weeks of years. I wouldn't be surprised if that happened elsewhere. There's a big debate over whether we must use exact counting for the three days in the tomb's hours. Further, there is a good reason why numbering days after Genesis 1 might be different than those in Genesis 1 - in the latter, the sun that counts those days had not even been made yet. But after Genesis 1 the sun was in place and counting could occur.

Daniel 9 doesn't use the word day at all. What it refers to is 70 x 7 year periods in Israel's future, or 490 years. I am increasingly alarmed that your lack of understanding of common biblical language.

Days with a number can be rotations of light and dark, not necessarily 24 hour periods. After all, if the earth's speed were to increase, our days would get shorter. We could end up with 23 hour days. But that does not mean that we would still have to count our days by 24 hours. We go by what the sun says - that is what marks time.

Rotations of light and dark are still a 24-hour period but that doesn't mean that each rotation of light and darkness is 12 hours each. Your explanations here are starting to sound awfully desperate. Regardless as to whether or not we had 23 hours of day and one hour of night it would still be a 24-hour / 1 lunar day. I would respectfully suggest you look up the word inculcated

 

[StanJ]

I think she might not think that happened the way you are thinking, since she picked #5.
Her answer could be that God made Adam as a fetus in the womb of a primate.

Wasn't addressing you so maybe you should just let her answer for herself if she is a she.
FYI, God created procreation. It didn't just happen.

 

[rakovsky]

Rotations of light and dark are still a 24-hour period but that doesn't mean that each rotation of light and darkness is 12 hours each. Your explanations here are starting to sound awfully desperate. Regardless as to whether or not we had 23 hours of day and one hour of night it would still be a 24-hour / 1 lunar day. I would respectfully suggest you look up the word inculcated

I think you didn't quite get my point. I was basically asking What if the rotation of the earth sped up so that a full rotation was 23 hours instead of 24, eg. 11.5 hours of darkness and 11.5 hours of daylight?

At that point, a full day would become 23 hours, not 24. Thus what is important and essential to the definition of "day" is the rotation of light and dark, not the passage of 24 hours by a stopwatch.

Check this out:

Why are the Days Becoming Longer?
The speed of the Earth's rotation decreases over time, but it also varies from day to day. One of the main factors are the celestial bodies surrounding us. For example, the Moon's gravitational pull causes tides and changes the Earth's shape, ultimately resulting in a lower rotational speed. The distance between Earth and Moon changes constantly, which makes for daily variations in the speed our planet rotates around its own axis.

http://www.timeanddate.com/time/earth-rotation.html

Do you realize the implications?

What a "day" means in terms of physical length does not mean necessarily something that can be measured by a physical stopwatch. This debunks the assumption that days in Genesis 1 must be exactly 24 hours measureable by a watch.

The rotation of darkness and light in Genesis 1 is what determines a day night cycle in that chapter, not somebody holding a watch!

 

[Hoghead1]

I don't know if you guys have heard of the Scopes Monkey Trial, but about 100 years ago when mainstream secular society was still debating this issue pretty hard, there was a court case where prosecutor named William Jennings Bryan said that Evolution was wrong.

The defense brought William Jennings Bryan to the witness stand , and he testified that even though he rejected evolution, he did not think that the earth was physically only several thousand years old. The Bible simply does not specify the exact physical age of each of the days in Creation.

Here is his testimony:

Most of us in the US are familiar with this trial. I think that reading in all sorts of ages into Gen. 1 is a far too allegorical approach to take. Allegorical interpretations are always a dangerous business, as they generally violate the plain meaning of teh text. Also, Bryan is not a major biblical scholar. He would have had a hard time with Ussher and Newton, who were.

 

[Hoghead1]

Well as Moses wrote both of them, the word yom means the same in Genesis as it does in Exodus. Unless you think the days in Exodus mean thousands of years which the context proves they do not. The same word is used throughout Exodus 20, so unless you are willing to assert that God commanded man to work six thousand years a week then you are really not paying attention to the context of the scripture?



A day is a day is a day and doesn't have to be defined every time it is used unless of course you're trying to use it out of context.



This has nothing to do with you agreeing with me, it has to do with reality, if you don't agree with me then study it and prove your assertion.
I've already given you a clear article as to how yom is used in Genesis 1. If you don't agree with those Scholars and take it up with them.



Any unbiased article worth its salt will always show the other side of the argument. Sadly all you do here is pick something that is said out of context and try to present it as the position of the article which would be at the very least disingenuous. The conclusion of the link is clear
If the meaning of the word "day" with a number always means a 24-hour period of time outside of Genesis 1, then it should also mean a 24-hour period of time inside Genesis 1. The words that Moses used to communicate what God did during creation are very significant. If Moses had meant to signify that the "days" were more than 24 hours in length, he could easily have done so. If we are to understand what Moses wrote, then the language he used must be understood in its normal meaning. The normal meaning is that of 24-hour periods of time.



Daniel 9 doesn't use the word day at all. What it refers to is 70 x 7 year periods in Israel's future, or 490 years. I am increasingly alarmed that your lack of understanding of common biblical language.



Rotations of light and dark are still a 24-hour period but that doesn't mean that each rotation of light and darkness is 12 hours each. Your explanations here are starting to sound awfully desperate. Regardless as to whether or not we had 23 hours of day and one hour of night it would still be a 24-hour / 1 lunar day. I would respectfully suggest you look up the word inculcated

I don't agree. I don't think Moses wrote any of it. Too many contradictions and very bumpy literary style.

 

[mark kennedy]

2 Peter 3:8 King James Version (KJV)
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Man did not exist on days 1 to 5, so who told man about the days before 6? Who was around then? And how long are his days?

The Bible says also that the sun was made to measure time on day 4. So if the measuring piece was only made on day 4, how do we measure the preceding time?

It surprises me how many people chose #2 in the poll without choosing 1,3,4, when #2 is the only concept I listed that is not stated in the Bible. The Bible never actually says how long the days in Genesis are, and numerous times the Bible uses the word day as if it can mean different physical lengths of time. See also Psalm 90:4 or the apocalyptic phrase In that day.

Those who consider #1 unbiblical and who think the waters "above" the heavens that contain the stars means ordinary earthly clouds are redefining things because they don't like their meaning, are they not?

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2Peter 3:16)

Luther is right, there is a strong tendency of unbelievers to conform the Scriptures to what they think.

Love the visual aids but ultimately this discussion is doctrinal and you obviously have a problem with the miraculous. Convince me otherwise and we will have a very different discussion.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

The setting in Genesis 1 is more in relationship to an agrarian society when Moses wrote it. As such day's were based on the lunar cycle which is why they talk about the evening and morning period as compromising one day, basically it is not much different today as our days are based on lunar cycles. As I pointed out the Hebrew word 'Yom' connotes and actual day just as we have them today, and is supported in by the wording in Exodus 20.
Psalm 90:4 does not say a thousand years IS a day, it says a thousand years in your sight is AS a day. Not the same thing. God it's not bound by time, God created time. He basically exists outside of time which is why the Bible says he has no beginning or end. He is not subject to time.
Indeed what Jesus says in John 11 is not the same as what Psalm 90:4 states, as they are in two different languages and use different words. You can't compare apples to oranges and have a PROPER comparison.

Get a clue, Moses is at the base of Sinai. Have you ever considered the possibility the God told him how He created the world.

Have a nice day
Mark

 

[rakovsky]

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2Peter 3:16)
Luther is right, there is a strong tendency of unbelievers to conform the Scriptures to what they think.

Luther was specifically talking about people like Calvin who rejected the Biblical belief in waters being over the firmament with the stars in it, but who instead conformed it to his own understanding by saying that the waters were just clouds.

 

[mark kennedy]

I don't know if you guys have heard of the Scopes Monkey Trial, but about 100 years ago when mainstream secular society was still debating this issue pretty hard, there was a court case where prosecutor named William Jennings Bryan said that Evolution was wrong.

The defense brought William Jennings Bryan to the witness stand , and he testified that even though he rejected evolution, he did not think that the earth was physically only several thousand years old. The Bible simply does not specify the exact physical age of each of the days in Creation.

Here is his testimony:

That was not about evolution, that was about social Darwinism, they barely spoke of evolution.

Have a nice day
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

Luther was specifically talking about people like Calvin who rejected the Biblical belief in waters being over the firmament with the stars in it, but who instead conformed it to his own understanding by saying that the waters were just clouds.

What are you talking about? God either acted in creation or He did not. Let's cut to the chase, is Genesis 1 events or an elaborate figure of speech?

 

[rakovsky]

That was not about evolution, that was about social Darwinism, they barely spoke of evolution.

Mark

The Scopes Monkey trial was not about evolution?

 

[rakovsky]

What are you talking about?

Please re-read the quote:

So far, only about 10% of the people in the poll are choosing the option for waters resting above the heavens.
People have a habit to conform the verse to their own understanding and read it as if it was talking about the clouds that are in the sky, not "above the heavens" like the Bible says.

 

[mark kennedy]

Please re-read the quote:

So far, only about 10% of the people in the poll are choosing the option for waters resting above the heavens.
People have a habit to conform the verse to their own understanding and read it as if it was talking about the clouds that are in the sky, not "above the heavens" like the Bible says.

Please answer the question, where do you stand on miracles?

 

[mark kennedy]

The Scopes Monkey trial was not about evolution?

It was about social Darwinism.

 

[rakovsky]

It was about social Darwinism.

Back when I was in an Evangelical middle school they told us it was about Evolution.

 

[mark kennedy]

Question too hard for you?