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Exodus 20:9-11 (Creation)

Queller

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Wrong, but no need to repeat myself...you clearly will see what you want to see and get out of it what you choose to.

That does bring up an interesting fact though. You just made it crystal clear you choose to see something other than the fact here as you twist it into something else, so it makes me wonder how you draw the conclusions you do in the area of the ideas you present here.
In response to my question as to what would convince you of common descent (in the context of evolution) you stated

As to what would convince me that is a fact, nothing that I know of.
IOW, you are not open to any new evidence ever because you have already determined that there is nothing that you could imagine that could convince you. Please tell me how I twisted that.

I'll wait but I won't be holding my breath.
 
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Queller

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I wasn't discussing 1st Corinthians 2:16.

But it seems like you have highlighted a contradiction. God says that His thoughts are higher than our thoughts yet Paul says we have the mind of Christ. They both can't be true. Who do you believe, God or Paul?
 
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Colter

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Agreed.

But junk-science that "never happened in nature" - is.



Here again - your "attack the Bible so I can believe in evolutionism" approach here is "much predicted".

Darwin himself admits that this is how it must be.
Old earth and the evolution of life on it is a fact not a religion. The authors of the 2,600 year old creation story were not scientist. You believe that God dictated that story to them therefor you must act like a grand inquisitor in defense of a mythowlogy. If the bible said the moon was made of cheese, then you would be forced to defend it until the bitter end.
 
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ScottA

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I wasn't discussing 1st Corinthians 2:16.

But it seems like you have highlighted a contradiction. God says that His thoughts are higher than our thoughts yet Paul says we have the mind of Christ. They both can't be true. Who do you believe, God or Paul?
No, there is no contradiction. Both are true, but Isaiah 55:9 was pre-salvation and Holy Spirit (being born again of the spirit of God), and 1 Corinthians 2:16 was after.
 
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AV1611VET

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How do you know that?
For the same reason you guys "know" it's the original Hebrew: faith.

Luke 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

Why do you think this "original Hebrew" stuff is still around?

It's because the common people wouldn't touch them.

Why wouldn't they touch them?

Because they knew they were forgeries.

Which will wear out faster? a Bible you use everyday, or a Bible that sits on your bookshelf and never touched?
 
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Hoghead1

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Then you construct your own bible and submit it to God .. You can answer and include all the questions put forth to Job while you're at it ..
Not a good answer. Completely fails to address the core issue. The problem is that many have unduly sanctified man-made fundamentalist religion and anti-intellectual ideology about the Bible. The SOP is that anyone, any scholar who dares disagree to the Bible Belt version of the Bible is automatically written off as evil, ignorant, etc. That problem is that many are not open-minded enough to explore other, richer options about how God, the Bible, and nature are interconnected. I don't think God ever intended the Bible to be an accurate geophysical or scientific witness. If God is content was a nonscientific bible, then so should I be and so should you. You should stop trying to impose your standards of what you think the Bible ought to be, onto God.
 
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AV1611VET

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Not a good answer. Completely fails to address the core issue. The problem is that many have unduly sanctified man-made fundamentalist religion and anti-intellectual ideology about the Bible. The SOP is that anyone, any scholar who dares disagree to the Bible Belt version of the Bible is automatically written off as evil, ignorant, etc. That problem is that many are not open-minded enough to explore other, richer options about how God, the Bible, and nature are interconnected. I don't think God ever intended the Bible to be an accurate geophysical or scientific witness. If God is content was a nonscientific bible, then so should I be and so should you. You should stop trying to impose your standards of what you think the Bible ought to be, onto God.
What you're espousing is what we call "general revelation."

God reveals Himself to us in two ways: general revelation & specific revelation.

Psalm 19 speak of both.

General revelation = the word of God.
Specific revelation = nature.

A problem occurs when people put general revelation over specific revelation; when God meant for specific revelation to trump general revelation.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

And in fact, His general revelation is temporal.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
 
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Queller

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I understand the sarcasm, but lose how you answer my question, again: "What do you mean [by allegory] and what would the allegory represent?" Or if your answer is sincere, its tone is incongruous so far as I can tell. What are you saying?
The definition of allegory that I am working with is this, from Merriam-Webster

2 : a symbolic representation

The allegory is God describing His creation in terms of symbolic time frames the citizens of of the age would understand. They knew what a day was therefore God spoke to them of His creation in those terms.

Again, I suspect your definition of "allegory" needs to be made clear. The Bible is peppered with a variety of ancient "literary devices" such as parallelism (in poetry) and therefore synonyms, etc., puns (a number in Genesis), metaphors, synecdoche, chiasm, object lessons (if I can include that in the list), typology, symbolism, allusion, hyperbole, repetition, parable (parable requires its own expansion elsewhere), foreshadowing, and whatever is tied to interpreting varied genre such as wisdom literature, narrative, song (e.g., laments), and multi-symbolic apocalyptic.

But allegory? In some cases, yes (e.g., how about Judges 9:7-15?) and depending (in apocalyptic lit.?). Then there's the whole rabbinic interpretation tradition (midrash, pesher, ...). But "the Bible is full of allegory"? The online OED says an allegory is: "A story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral [we might add religious] or political one" (material in square brackets my addition). Unless your reading of the Bible is esoteric (like a Gnostic or "Bible numerologist," for example), I suspect your "full of allegory" characterization of the Bible is exaggerated (... unless you being satirical somehow?).
Are you telling me that a parable is not a type of allegory?

Parable: a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels.

Allegory (to use your definition): a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.

Those two definitions look remarkably similar to me.

Granted as I wrote, I understand only some of Schroeder's theory. For one thing (as I wrote), it relies on the General Theory of Relativity (Einstein's one, which has received some experimental confirmation since it was published), of which my understanding is limited. Schroeder's theory so far as I know also relies on other aspects of physics and mathematics, measurements and calculations from the field of astronomy (like Doppler shifts) and chemistry, CERN measurements and calculations, not to re-mention rabbinic exegesis. For all I know, Schroeder's theory may be wrong, but your above characterization sounds like "nothing more" than cavalier dismissal rather than informed critique.
It's nothing more than a thought experiment because Schroeder offered no evidence to support his hypothesis.

Not to mention that saying that God's "day" is a different frame of reference than ours does nothing to negate the fact that, from our frame of reference, the universe appears to have existed for approximately 13.4 billion years and the earth for approximately 4.5 billion years.

In principle I suppose, but again, what allegory from Genesis 1?
The whole of Genesis 1 is God putting His creation into chronological terms that the people of the time understood.

And why do you include "Luke 13" (presumably vv. 10-17)?
It's simply another place in the Bible that refers back to Genesis.

If you mean something about the Sabbath in Genesis 2 (the Sabbath is not in Genesis 1 but it is referred to in Exodus 20), how is whatever point you want to make tied to allegory? If the Sabbath in Genesis 2:1-3 is "allegorical," how do you know (and what do you mean)?
It's allegorical in that it wasn't really 168 hours but is in reference to chronological terms the people of the time understood (morning and evening comprising one day).

The creation Sabbath adumbrates the Mosaic weekly Sabbath and for example Joshua's rest and more (cf. Hebrews 3-4, Psalm 95, and Isa. 58:5-7--the latter where the Sabbath is a type of liberation), but are you suggesting God did not rest (i.e., He stopped creating) in some or all senses, or that His creation resting was symbolic of something other than ceasing from creating--if so, what and how do you know or how do you substantiate your claim?
I can't parse this out enough to understand what you are talking about.

God is simply saying "As I rested from my work, so too should you should rest from your work".

Or are you only saying the creation week 7th day was not a literal 24 hour day as the Mosaic weekly Sabbath was, but if so, what thematic correspondence(s) do you see with the Mosaic weekly Sabbath of Exodus 20 or how does the word "allegory" relate?
I assume you believe Moses wrote the Pentateuch. As God told Moses of His work during the Creation week, He spoke in chronological terms Moses would understand. The culture of the time already knew what a day was (morning and evening) so God spoke of how He created in those terms. There was no need to get into further detail as that would simply detract from the lesson God is trying to impart.
 
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Queller

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Science by definition and observation is never 100% correct and it is ever changing... why would anyone stake Biblical principles and doubt God's Word over something that is never really right?
I for one, don't doubt God's Word. I doubt fallible man's understanding and interpretation of it.
 
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Queller

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The observer is Moses in Genesis 1-2:3 with the reference point of earth.
Umm, what? Moses was not there observing when God created the universe. God told him about it afterwards, using terminology Moses would understand and comprehend.

But in Ex 20:11 legal code it is God - and they both claim to see the same thing.

You have to read 4 billion years "into the text" - it is not there at all. And the text of both Genesis 1-2:3 and Ex 20:11 was written for "readers within the same creation" -

And evening and morning are specific to the rotation of this one planet - the Universe does not have night/day cycles.
Why does the earth have mornings and evenings?

Injecting a counter-idea into the text to fit an a-priori bias brought to the text - is eisegesis - not exegesis.
 
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Queller

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Everything is written from the point of view of the earth. There is no darkness in Heaven, thus no night.
The earth is in heaven right now? Because I look out my window right now and it looks dark to me.
 
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Queller

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If we say no, we are being disrespectful to God, if we say yes, I guess we are to take certain things as fact even if we don't understand them. And who decides what God is saying? You, Colter and Hog?
Do you, KWCrazy, and others decide?
 
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Queller

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Already commented and nothing has changed with my view, but please...feel free to both wait and hold your breath.
I didn't think you would be able to back up your claims that I twisted your plainly written words. Thank you for not surprising me.
 
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BobRyan

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Umm, what? Moses was not there observing when God created the universe

Nor was Daniel hanging around for Christ's baptism in Daniel 9. But the Bible says that God shows events past and future to prophets via dreams and visions.


So... the point remains. The Bible is true.

Just as Heb 8:5 tells us that God "showed Moses" the heavenly sanctuary as the pattern to make the earthly miniature -- so also God showed Moses a number of details including Genesis 1. In John 8 Christ said "Abraham SAW my day and was glad" not "God gave Abraham letters and when grouped together they told Abraham a story about My day -- and he was glad" in Joseph-Smith-style.

Why does the earth have mornings and evenings?

Rotation of the planet. That was going on - on day 1 in Genesis 1.

(Oh no wait! Some people here are arguing that the entire universe was going through day and night cycles!! really??!!)
 
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Queller

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BobRyan

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Queller said:
I wasn't discussing 1st Corinthians 2:16.

But it seems like you have highlighted a contradiction. God says that His thoughts are higher than our thoughts yet Paul says we have the mind of Christ. They both can't be true. Who do you believe, God or Paul?

No, there is no contradiction. Both are true, but Isaiah 55:9 was pre-salvation and Holy Spirit (being born again of the spirit of God), and 1 Corinthians 2:16 was after.

Enoch went directly to heaven - so also did Elijah.

Paul does not say in 1Cor 2 that we have infinite intelligence or that we are as all-knowing as God.

Context matters.
 
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Hoghead1

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The definition of allegory that I am working with is this, from Merriam-Webster

2 : a symbolic representation

The allegory is God describing His creation in terms of symbolic time frames the citizens of of the age would understand. They knew what a day was therefore God spoke to them of His creation in those terms.

Are you telling me that a parable is not a type of allegory?

Parable: a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels.

Allegory (to use your definition): a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.

Those two definitions look remarkably similar to me.

It's nothing more than a thought experiment because Schroeder offered no evidence to support his hypothesis.

Not to mention that saying that God's "day" is a different frame of reference than ours does nothing to negate the fact that, from our frame of reference, the universe appears to have existed for approximately 13.4 billion years and the earth for approximately 4.5 billion years.

The whole of Genesis 1 is God putting His creation into chronological terms that the people of the time understood.

It's simply another place in the Bible that refers back to Genesis.

It's allegorical in that it wasn't really 168 hours but is in reference to chronological terms the people of the time understood (morning and evening comprising one day).

I can't parse this out enough to understand what you are talking about.

God is simply saying "As I rested from my work, so too should you should rest from your work".

I assume you believe Moses wrote the Pentateuch. As God told Moses of His work during the Creation week, He spoke in chronological terms Moses would understand. The culture of the time already knew what a day was (morning and evening) so God spoke of how He created in those terms. There was no need to get into further detail as that would simply detract from the lesson God is trying to impart.
I find several problems here. One is that Moses definitely did not write the Pentateuch. Tow is that there are two conflicting chronologies in Genesis. Either Adam was created after the animals and at the same time as Eve (Gen.1) or before the animals, which came before Eve (Gen. 2). It can't be both ways. The third is that allegory is a pretty good way of turning Scripture into a nose of wax that you can twist any way you want.
 
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BobRyan

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Science isn't blind faith,

Agreed.

But junk-science that "never happened in nature" - is.

the YEC story constructed by humiliated exiled Hebrew priest in Babylon is blind faith.

Here again - your "attack the Bible so I can believe in evolutionism" approach here is "much predicted".

Darwin himself admits that this is how it must be.

Old earth and the evolution of life on it is a fact not a religion.

Well it not a very good one. It is a junk-science religion filled with fraud as in the case of the horse series still on display at the Smithsonian.

Hailed as the best example of evolutionism observed/found/confirmed -- only to later have to admit that the sequence they 'dreamed up for emotional effect' in fact "never happened in nature".

Try getting the Physics department to claim that "gravitational constant was never measured and confirmed" -- not going to happen in "real science"

The authors of the 2,600 year old creation story were not scientist.

So good thing we are not reading something they just 'made up'.

2 Peter 1
19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

As God's Word says.


You believe that God dictated that story to them therefor you must act like a grand inquisitor

All I have to do is "read" -- the Bible and accept it instead of rejecting it.

Your constant attack on the Bible in defense of blind faith evolutionism - is much predicted.

Even Darwin noted that this is the necessary result.
 
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