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Exodus 20:9-11 (Creation)

Queller

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That's not what I said, was it?
The fall of man brought death into the world. Prior to this there was no death. You believe that there was millions of years of death and birth before man evolved. My statement is exactly true, and yours is exactly false.
Prove it.

So the son of God is repeating a lie rather than setting the record straight? How is that consistent with any of His other teaching? You are so blinded by your rejection of the word of God that can't even see when you're not making sense.
No, He is repeating an already used allegory.


Show me what there in in the Bible with which you agree? Certainly you can't believe that silliness about a man 3 days dead in the heat of summer coming back from the dead after all that decomposition.
I don't believe in miracles?


Show me a biologist in the world who would say that's possible.
Kenneth Miller. That's why it's called a miracle.


The virgin birth, really? Do you believe that a woman who had never been with a man actually gave birth to the son of God? Name for me one scientist who can demonstrate how that is possible.
Maybe you aren't aware of the term miracle?

Show me in Scriptures, I DEFY you!!!
The writing in Genesis is clear and unambiguous.
James Barr, Professor of Hebrew, University of Oxford, 1984:
“Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Gen. 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience."
There is not a single passage of Scripture which contradicts the Genesis account, and not a single passage that gives credence to evolution. Belief in evolution REQUIRES a rejection of the Scriptures.
There is not a single passage of scripture that cannot be understood to be an allegory as a teaching moment with regards to Genesis.

God is not deceitful. You reject His word.
If God made the world only 6,000 years ago but put fossils and impact craters in the ground that can be there if the world is millions of years old, then yes, God is deceitful.

That's exactly the argument Satan used.
No, that's what God said would happen.

The Bible says Adam would surely die. He did.
God said that Adam would die in the day that he ate the fruit.


Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

He didn't.

The Satanic lie was to imply that he would die immediately,
God said he would die in the day the he ate the fruit.


but the truth is that the moment he defied God death became assured. In the day does not mean on the day.
That's exactly what it means. Literally.


Satan knew this, Eve did not. Satan told her she wouldn't die that day.


You admit you reject this Scripture. Thank you.
No I reject a false interpretation of Scripture.

I just PROVED you pick and choose which parts of the Bible you believe.
Jesus fasted for 40 days. That is correct. Satan is a spirit, operating in a spiritual world. He is not flesh and blood; never was. He at no time is shown to have a physical body. He was never born.
Then by that logic, no other angel has a physical body. Is that your argument?


Evolution absolutely depends on mutations because this is the only way that new alleles and new regulatory regions are created.
I agree with this quote. However, it provides no support whatsoever for your claim that "Benevolent mutations do NOT advance a species"


Apparently I do and you don't.
The evidence shows otherwise.
 
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Queller

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If you want to repeat what I've already looked into, have at it, but unless you have something new to bring to the table, probably won't do any good.

Not sure why you would assume I'm not open to considering what you call evidence when I have already. Not sure but I thought I mentioned that and if that is the case, why the accusation?
You said there is nothing that could convince you of common descent. Therefore you are not open to considering any evidence that might ever be discovered. Therefore you are not open to considering the evidence.
 
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Kenny'sID

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You said there is nothing that could convince you of common descent. Therefore you are not open to considering any evidence that might ever be discovered. Therefore you are not open to considering the evidence.

Wrong, but no need to repeat myself...you clearly will see what you want to see and get out of it what you choose to.

That does bring up an interesting fact though. You just made it crystal clear you choose to see something other than the fact here as you twist it into something else, so it makes me wonder how you draw the conclusions you do in the area of the ideas you present here.
 
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Neogaia777

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The tidy package of the Hebrews distorted history have given the West a narrow view of world history. There are cultures that predate Adam & Eve and cultures that were thriving during the times of the vastly exaggerated flood story.
Unless they got the date of Adam and Eve and the flood wrong, remember one of God's days is "AS" a thousand years, which the "as" part, probably means even longer than a thousand years, or their was a separate created and an separate evolved species of humanoid on the earth at that time...
 
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bloodbought09

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The tidy package of the Hebrews distorted history have given the West a narrow view of world history. There are cultures that predate Adam & Eve and cultures that were thriving during the times of the vastly exaggerated flood story.

The ancients are wiser than the word of God Colter?
 
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ScottA

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I'm not pitting one verse against another. You and I are only discussing one verse, Isaiah 55:9, in which God states His mind is higher than any of ours. You are the one that said your thoughts were God's thoughts in defiance of that verse.
Two (2) verses (again):
  1. Isaiah 55:9
  2. 1 Corinthians 2:16
 
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tickingclocker

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That is an interesting point. In the beginning God created the heavens and earth. How long did that take? The bible doesn't say. How long was the earth without form and void before God began The rest of creation. The actual 6 day creation starts after God created the heavens and earth.

But it is interesting to note that God didn't create the stars, sun and moon until day 4. AFTER he created the plants.

This flys in the face of evolutionary belief. As does day 5. God creates the fish and then the birds. Evolution would say life came from the sea and the the land and then they evolved into,birds. But God did this backwards from evolution.

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If the earth was a mass of gas instead of solid, how could it support H2o? The water was also gas? Was it vapor? Could be. IDK. Neither does anyone else. Not even scientists. But how could there be a "deep", if that was the case? Gas or water vapor isn't known to have a deep (whatever deep meant only God knows). God does call it "water", not gas/vapor. Then v. 6 adds that God separated the water from the water. Hmm.. So that makes 24-hour days that we know as created on the 4th "day"--the first official 24-hour earth day. Possibly.

When God explains creation in human language, do you really think He meant for us to process it play by play? I don't think so. Ponder it, yes. Worship Him for it, of course. Do we truly know who we worship, even with every fact "of" God neatly cataloged, cross-referenced and color-coded? No. No human has ever seen God, but we know He exists. Fine with me. Keep it simple, little ticker, and you can't go wrong.

I don't care what "evolution" says. Never have. But I don't like it when people think they can pin down God, making claims that of their conclusions is "God's truth" from a few brief sentences the Lord gracious gave us. There's some truth in all views, but that all still doesn't contain the whole. It took the Lord the entire bible and thousands of years to reveal the Savior to thick-headed humans.

Thanks for the input. Nice to see it wasn't heavily laced with a sense of superiority. Most people are more willing to listen when they know you are not looking down your nose at them.
 
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tickingclocker

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The evening and the morning were not eons, but days. Man is to work six days and rest on the seventh. The Lord made an example for all of us.

That's what so many fall back on when it comes to their idea of Creation, etc., etc.. Does it back up something... else I wish to believe is true? Because if an alternate view doesn't, I can't believe the alternate.

Creation was never about "days". It was ALL about Resting IN the Lord's work. There will be no calendar days in New Jerusalem, will there, with Christ as our light? But the eternal Rest of the Lord will remain forever.
 
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Kenny'sID

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A quick comment about a day is as a thousand years to God. I've seen that tossed in when the subject of Geneses comes up many times over the years. It's just tossed in and generally no more. That is a fact in the context that it was written, in that god is patient...see 2 Peter 3:8.

Seems to me that has absolutely nothing to do with times of creation, and God is pretty clear when he stated the evening and the morning were the first day. There may be a lot more too what happened before that but at least that is clear...to me anyway. For anyone that feels God would just say that and not mean it for any reason at all, all I can say is him doing so makes no sense at all to me.
 
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tickingclocker

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Man did not evolve. Those who claim man evolved are lying as proven by the clear text of the Scriptures.
Fish did not evolve. Those who claim fish evolved are lying as proven by the clear text of the Scriptures.
Whales did not evolve. Those who claim whales evolved are lying as proven by the clear text of the Scriptures.
Trees did not evolve. Those who claim trees evolved are lying as proven by the clear text of the Scriptures.
The great flood happened. Those who claim it did not happen are lying as proven by the clear text of the Scriptures.
Case closed.
Where is anyone saying they didn't?
 
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tickingclocker

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Baloney, I say. I have already published at least four times my position on the contradictions in Genesis....

If they haven't read it the second time, please, don't assume they are going to read more just because you keep re-posting it. Enough. Incessantly repeating the same thing over and over isn't exactly going to change people's minds. They eventually tune out everything you say as being boorish.
 
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Hoghead1

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We read them. You are simply wrong. There are no contradictions in Genesis, and anyone who reads beyond a seventh grade level can clearly see this. Why you continuously post that wall of gibberish is unknown, but it's wrong and has no relationship to the truth of the Scriptures. You may be in love with your own opinion, but the rest of us realize that you're completely incorrect.
I suggest you read what I posted on Genesis. The problem is that you're stuck on a 7-grade level of understanding here. I suggest you try a basic Bible 101 course.
 
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AV1611VET

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It's borderline blasphemy because some of these things, they are basically accusing God of lying or intentionally misleading us.
They accused Jesus of being a "deceiver."

Matthew 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

Do you think it's any different today?
 
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Hoghead1

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As he gave Adam the ability to choose whether or not to defy His only rule and eat the forbidden fruit. We saw how that turned out.
Oh, wait. You don't believe that happened.
When Jesus quoted Genesis two regarding Adam and Eve, He was clearly lacking the benefit of modern science.
Of course we also know that the story of Cain and Abel is false. Too bad nobody told Jesus when He said, in Luke 11: "Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all."
Too bad Christ didn't have access to modern science. He believe the Scriptures were accurate.


I think BILLIONS of people of all faiths are wrong.
I don't pretend that I am right. I am, however, secure in the knowledge that God is right.


You know, I've read the term "literalist interpretation" so many times if I never read it again I'll be happy. There is no such thing because literalism requires belief as read; no interpretation.
The fact is that the Bible is perfectly clear that in the beginning GOD CREATED the heaven's and the earth, and that GOD CREATED all living things in six days. There is no possible interpretation that would allow for the evolution of life without entirely rejecting the book of Genesis. You DO reject it, though you pretend you don't.
You disbelief in the creation of the earth.
You disbelieve in original sin, which brought death into the world,
You disbelieve in the genealogy of man from Adam to the flood.
You disbelieve there was a global flood.
You disbelieve in the re-population of the world after the flood.
It's not that evolution believers interpret the Bible differently, you outright REJECT anything in the Bible which interferes with that which you have chosen to believe.


Yes, because I believe it was a vision, not a specific vantage point, and it was a spiritual journey more than a physical one.
Maybe you can shorten things up for us and list for us the things in the Bible which you DO believe. It must be hard to believe that Jesus was the son of God when He was obviously wrong about so many things that your science teachers told you. Know what else they were wrong about? Benevolent mutations do NOT advance a species, nothing has ever evolved into anything, and without an outside Creator there is no scientifically valid explanation for the origination of anything.

It is definitely not a question of Jesus being wrong. However, it is definitely a question whether your interpretation of the Bible is wrong. I hold it is a compete and total misrepresentation of the life of Christ to assume he was a science teacher. The fact of the matter is that you are going on an anti-intellectual fundamentalist version of the Bible. You are assuming that the only way to correctly understand the Bible is via fallible, man-made fundamentalist ideology. That is a very bad move on your part, as there are other, more solid options available for Christians.
 
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Hoghead1

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Genesis 2 is NOT a creation account. It begins by saying, "Thus the Heavens and earth were completed in their vast array." After Adam was placed into the Garden of Eden, it says that the Lord had formed the birds and the land animals which were brought to Adam to name. It says nothing whatever of any new creation.
The atheist claim of two conflicting creation accounts is disproved by a cursory reading at a seventh grade level. You seriously need to pay more attention to the Scriptures and less attention to the detractors. Make no mistake, the false teachers will account for trying to lead believers away from the Bible on the day of judgment.
No, you need to pay more attention to careful biblical scholarship. Because biblical scholars disagree with your views that does not mean they are all atheists. It just means your interpretation is way off, period, end of it. You are working from an uninformed, anti-intellectual position and then unduly accusing fellow Christians of being atheists because they do not agree with your uninformed views. Incidentally, casting dispersion on teh character of fellow Christians because they do not agree with you is completely against the rules of the forum. I don't know how many times I have had to remind you of that rule. Also, when you talk about a seventh-grade level, I think anyone in or on a seventh-grade level can easily recognize that either Adam was created after the animals (Gen. 1) or before the animals (Gen. 2). It can't be both. So, wither you have a serious reading-comprehension problem or you are not paying any attention at all to the texts.
 
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Look Up

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That "day" represents a symbolic time in reference to concepts with which no Bronze age citizen would be familiar, namely the idea of hundreds of millions of years of past time.

I understand the sarcasm, but lose how you answer my question, again: "What do you mean [by allegory] and what would the allegory represent?" Or if your answer is sincere, its tone is incongruous so far as I can tell. What are you saying?

The Bible is full of allegory, wouldn't you agree?

Again, I suspect your definition of "allegory" needs to be made clear. The Bible is peppered with a variety of ancient "literary devices" such as parallelism (in poetry) and therefore synonyms, etc., puns (a number in Genesis), metaphors, synecdoche, chiasm, object lessons (if I can include that in the list), typology, symbolism, allusion, hyperbole, repetition, parable (parable requires its own expansion elsewhere), foreshadowing, and whatever is tied to interpreting varied genre such as wisdom literature, narrative, song (e.g., laments), and multi-symbolic apocalyptic.

But allegory? In some cases, yes (e.g., how about Judges 9:7-15?) and depending (in apocalyptic lit.?). Then there's the whole rabbinic interpretation tradition (midrash, pesher, ...). But "the Bible is full of allegory"? The online OED says an allegory is: "A story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral [we might add religious] or political one" (material in square brackets my addition). Unless your reading of the Bible is esoteric (like a Gnostic or "Bible numerologist," for example), I suspect your "full of allegory" characterization of the Bible is exaggerated (... unless you being satirical somehow?).

Schroeder's idea of God switching His frame of reference at the creation of Adam is an interesting thought experiment, but nothing more.

Granted as I wrote, I understand only some of Schroeder's theory. For one thing (as I wrote), it relies on the General Theory of Relativity (Einstein's one, which has received some experimental confirmation since it was published), of which my understanding is limited. Schroeder's theory so far as I know also relies on other aspects of physics and mathematics, measurements and calculations from the field of astronomy (like Doppler shifts) and chemistry, CERN measurements and calculations, not to re-mention rabbinic exegesis. For all I know, Schroeder's theory may be wrong, but your above characterization sounds like "nothing more" than cavalier dismissal rather than informed critique.

I see no reason why an allegory in Genesis 1 would not be repeated in Exodus 20, nor again in Luke 13, especially given that they all refer to the same idea; namely six days of work and one of rest.

In principle I suppose, but again, what allegory from Genesis 1? And why do you include "Luke 13" (presumably vv. 10-17)? If you mean something about the Sabbath in Genesis 2 (the Sabbath is not in Genesis 1 but it is referred to in Exodus 20), how is whatever point you want to make tied to allegory? If the Sabbath in Genesis 2:1-3 is "allegorical," how do you know (and what do you mean)? The creation Sabbath adumbrates the Mosaic weekly Sabbath and for example Joshua's rest and more (cf. Hebrews 3-4, Psalm 95, and Isa. 58:5-7--the latter where the Sabbath is a type of liberation), but are you suggesting God did not rest (i.e., He stopped creating) in some or all senses, or that His creation resting was symbolic of something other than ceasing from creating--if so, what and how do you know or how do you substantiate your claim? Or are you only saying the creation week 7th day was not a literal 24 hour day as the Mosaic weekly Sabbath was, but if so, what thematic correspondence(s) do you see with the Mosaic weekly Sabbath of Exodus 20 or how does the word "allegory" relate?
 
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Hoghead1

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That's not what I said, was it?
The fall of man brought death into the world. Prior to this there was no death. You believe that there was millions of years of death and birth before man evolved. My statement is exactly true, and yours is exactly false.

So the son of God is repeating a lie rather than setting the record straight? How is that consistent with any of His other teaching? You are so blinded by your rejection of the word of God that can't even see when you're not making sense.


Show me what there in in the Bible with which you agree? Certainly you can't believe that silliness about a man 3 days dead in the heat of summer coming back from the dead after all that decomposition. Show me a biologist in the world who would say that's possible. The virgin birth, really? Do you believe that a woman who had never been with a man actually gave birth to the son of God? Name for me one scientist who can demonstrate how that is possible.

Show me in Scriptures, I DEFY you!!!
The writing in Genesis is clear and unambiguous.
James Barr, Professor of Hebrew, University of Oxford, 1984:

“Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Gen. 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience."
There is not a single passage of Scripture which contradicts the Genesis account, and not a single passage that gives credence to evolution. Belief in evolution REQUIRES a rejection of the Scriptures.

God is not deceitful. You reject His word.


That's exactly the argument Satan used.
The Bible says Adam would surely die. He did. The Satanic lie was to imply that he would die immediately, but the truth is that the moment he defied God death became assured. In the day does not mean on the day. Satan knew this, Eve did not. Satan told her she wouldn't die that day.


You admit you reject this Scripture. Thank you.

I just PROVED you pick and choose which parts of the Bible you believe.
Jesus fasted for 40 days. That is correct. Satan is a spirit, operating in a spiritual world. He is not flesh and blood; never was. He at no time is shown to have a physical body. He was never born.


Evolution absolutely depends on mutations because this is the only way that new alleles and new regulatory regions are created. source
Apparently I do and you don't.
Again, you thinking is way, way off base. The issue here isn't whether the Bible is right or wrong. The issue here is whether your interpretation is right or wrong. Your commitment to the man-made ideology of fundamentalist Christianity compels you to irrationally assume the Bible as intended by God to be a book of science. But, that is not at all true. As Calvin wisely observed, God did not intend to give us an astronomy lesson. Hence, you are unduly abusing Scripture when you pit it against science. You are twisting it way beyond the purpose God intended it to serve. You are trying to manipulate and control God so that he acts in accord with what your man-made religious ideology says he should do.
 
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Colter

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The ancients are wiser than the word of God Colter?
No, the Word of God isn't a book, it's truth, Living truth. To write about the doings of God is the written word, sifted through the imperfection of man.
 
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