Exodus 20:9-11 (Creation)

[KWCrazy]

I think you are incorrect.

• The story of creation is told from the perspective of the Creators (Elohim);
  
• There were no earthly observers until day 6;
  
• Until the 3rd day when the Sun and Moon are placed in the sky to distinguish day from night there is no need for a terrestrial perspective at all;
• The words erev (evening, chaos), boker (morning, order), and yohm (day, era) do not necessarily carry the meanings enforced upon them by translators but are the best words in Hebrew to describe the process of Creation Exnihilo because they describe order (boker) being created from chaos (erev) over a period of time (yohm).

Well that's at least an educated attempt so I'll give you points for the effort.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was without form and void. The heavens in this quote would be the stars in the universe, though the stars weren't created until day for. So how is this possible? I see two possibilities. 1. God created the heavens; other galaxies; and the earth which was alone in its segment of the universe. Genesis then goes on to describe the formation of a source of light, which will become our sun, moon and stars on day four. 2. Sentence one is a summary; stating that int the beginning; our beginning; God created the heavens and the earth. The text then goes on to describe the events of creation, from the creation of day and night (an earth in rotation) to the creation of plant and tree life, to the creation of the universe and then eventually to the creation of man. Since other galaxies are too far away to be used for navigation or for seasons, it makes no difference if there are a billion other worlds out there. Genesis deals with our world and our experience. Whether we are alone or not alone, what is revealed to us is the history of our creation at the hands of the Lord.

As far as the time element goes, I will defer to the words of Hebrew scholars who I believe revere the Scriptures as written.

The use of a number with the word "day" is very illuminating. This combination occurs 357 times outside of Genesis 1. The combination is used in four different ways, but each time it is used, it must mean 24-hour periods of time. If the combinations had been intended to mean long periods of time, both the texts and contexts then become meaningless. source

“Because our world is aggressive in its promotion of the evolutionary model, this unbiblical scheme has influenced the worldview of many in the church. But if we either minimize or deny the import of the early chapters of Genesis as literal history, what is to stop us from doing the same with other passages of Scripture, such as the confusion of the languages at Babel, turning Lot’s wife into a “pillar of salt”, the many miracles performed with Israel’s Exodus from Egypt or Christ taking five loaves and two fish to feed 5000, to name just a few? Furthermore, if the Bible’s history can’t be trusted, then why trust its morality? No wonder that with some who had been part of vibrant churches, evolutionary thinking has led them astray into moral relativism.” source

Oxford professor James Barr:
‘ … probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Gen. 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that

1. creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience
2. the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story
3. Noah’s flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.’

So why do some who are supposed top be learned scholars still continue to try and torture the Scriptures to allow for the lie of evolution?

‘On the one hand, it is common to “study the Scriptures” (John 5:39), and disregard God. Remarkably, in the situation from which this John quote is taken, Jesus Himself was standing right in front of His disputers! There is a veil over people’s hearts when they read Scripture (2 Corinthians 3:15), the “god of this age”has blinded minds (2 Corinthians 4:4), the things of God are foolishness to the world and cannot be understood apart from the Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:14). source

 

[KWCrazy]

You are lucky I don't sue you for defamation of character.

How do you defame a screen name?
I believe your inability to understand anything about Scriptures defamed yourself. Nobody believes you're a Biblical scholar.
Nobody.

 

[Hoghead1]

Well that's at least an educated attempt so I'll give you points for the effort.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was without form and void. The heavens in this quote would be the stars in the universe, though the stars weren't created until day for. So how is this possible? I see two possibilities. 1. God created the heavens; other galaxies; and the earth which was alone in its segment of the universe. Genesis then goes on to describe the formation of a source of light, which will become our sun, moon and stars on day four. 2. Sentence one is a summary; stating that int the beginning; our beginning; God created the heavens and the earth. The text then goes on to describe the events of creation, from the creation of day and night (an earth in rotation) to the creation of plant and tree life, to the creation of the universe and then eventually to the creation of man. Since other galaxies are too far away to be used for navigation or for seasons, it makes no difference if there are a billion other worlds out there. Genesis deals with our world and our experience. Whether we are alone or not alone, what is revealed to us is the history of our creation at the hands of the Lord.

As far as the time element goes, I will defer to the words of Hebrew scholars who I believe revere the Scriptures as written.

The use of a number with the word "day" is very illuminating. This combination occurs 357 times outside of Genesis 1. The combination is used in four different ways, but each time it is used, it must mean 24-hour periods of time. If the combinations had been intended to mean long periods of time, both the texts and contexts then become meaningless. source

“Because our world is aggressive in its promotion of the evolutionary model, this unbiblical scheme has influenced the worldview of many in the church. But if we either minimize or deny the import of the early chapters of Genesis as literal history, what is to stop us from doing the same with other passages of Scripture, such as the confusion of the languages at Babel, turning Lot’s wife into a “pillar of salt”, the many miracles performed with Israel’s Exodus from Egypt or Christ taking five loaves and two fish to feed 5000, to name just a few? Furthermore, if the Bible’s history can’t be trusted, then why trust its morality? No wonder that with some who had been part of vibrant churches, evolutionary thinking has led them astray into moral relativism.” source

Oxford professor James Barr:
‘ … probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Gen. 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that

1. creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience
2. the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story
3. Noah’s flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.’

So why do some who are supposed top be learned scholars still continue to try and torture the Scriptures to allow for the lie of evolution?

‘On the one hand, it is common to “study the Scriptures” (John 5:39), and disregard God. Remarkably, in the situation from which this John quote is taken, Jesus Himself was standing right in front of His disputers! There is a veil over people’s hearts when they read Scripture (2 Corinthians 3:15), the “god of this age”has blinded minds (2 Corinthians 4:4), the things of God are foolishness to the world and cannot be understood apart from the Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:14). source

Your problem is that you took Barr out of context. Any solid biblical scholar, including myself, will tell you that Genesis 1 is saying that God created in literally six days. That isn't the problem. The issue is whether or not god intends Scripture to be an accurate geophysical witness. I and many others scholars have solid reason to believe that is not at all the case. Incidentally, since you think I am putting you on about being a biblical scholar and want to complain to the Mods, go ahead. See how far you get. When I joined up here, I made sure they had my rel name, complete resume, history of publications, you name it. So go right ahead and report me. See how far you get.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Just as I thought. This isn't a discussion about creation.

You're playing word games.

bugkiller

Word games? that's an odd reaction to my telling you you are wrong. No games at all.

Last couple of replies I got were pretty bizarre.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

There is no contradiction at all. The legal code of Ex 20:11 fits perfectly with Gen 1:2-2:3 account.

The legal code of Ex 20:11 is not part of the demonstration of literal contradiction under discussion. The literal contradiction is between the narrative of Genesis 1:25-26 where animals are created first, and then mankind; vs Genesis 2:18-19 where animals are created after mankind. Clearly both cannot be literally true.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Its probably already been said but; who's 6 days is being described here?

For an observer outside the universe, observing the beginning of the universe, it might indeed take 6 days for the universe to be ordered from the disorder.

For an observer from within the same creation, however, it might appear that it took 14 billion years or so for the same series of events to take place.

This is due to fact that time and space co-exist within the universe, began to exist at the beginning of the universe and expanded in relativity. Space itself effects the apparent passing of time. As space expands so does time (within the created system).

I do believe God when He says the earth was created in 6 days, however this does not need to conflict with the perception of long ages that is apparent from the perspective of the created beings within the universe.

Neither perspective is a lie or mistaken, neither is allegorical and both can be taken seriously.

t

One could specify a point of view of motion that an angel could take in flight that would give it only a subjective point of view of only six days from the creation of the universe up to 6000 years ago. But that would not take away the 4.5 billion trips around the sun the earth has taken.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

It's not a problem for me. I am willing to admit that evolution is a lie.

The contradiction of accepting the alternate narratives as both literal is not rescued by merely denying evolution. Why do you even think that is involved? The question is, which came first, mankind, or animals. You find one answer in Genesis 1, another answer in Genesis 2.

 

[KWCrazy]

The contradiction of accepting the alternate narratives as both literal is not rescued by merely denying evolution. Why do you even think that is involved? The question is, which came first, mankind, or animals. You find one answer in Genesis 1, another answer in Genesis 2.

Despite having it explained to you many times, you continue with the false narrative that Genesis 2 is a creation account. I'm afraid there is no hope.

 

[KWCrazy]

Any solid biblical scholar, including myself, will tell you that Genesis 1 is saying that God created in literally six days.

So after scores of posts where you pompously proclaimed that poorly educated, unintelligent people were misreading the Bible and thinking erroneously that it said the creation happened in six days, now you admit that the six day creation is EXACTLY what Genesis 1 is teaching. You owe all of us an apology. I won't see it, of course. I've had enough. It's off to the ignore bin for you. Goodbye.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Despite having it explained to you many times, you continue with the false narrative that Genesis 2 is a creation account. I'm afraid there is no hope.

When the literal text says
Gen 2:19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them"

yes that is a creation account. Literally.

Your problem is you are not interpreting the words literally. How dare you to stop using your own rule about interpreting the bible literally? You can't just pick and choose what you want to be literal and what you don't want to be literal . . . . and then deny others the same right. If you get to do it, I get to do it. Fair's fair.

 

[Hoghead1]

Despite having it explained to you many times, you continue with the false narrative that Genesis 2 is a creation account. I'm afraid there is no hope.

No hope for whom? I'd have to put you in that category, as your posts are completely contra any real sense of biblical scholarship.

 

[Hoghead1]

So after scores of posts where you pompously proclaimed that poorly educated, unintelligent people were misreading the Bible and thinking erroneously that it said the creation happened in six days, now you admit that the six day creation is EXACTLY what Genesis 1 is teaching. You owe all of us an apology. I won't see it, of course. I've had enough. It's off to the ignore bin for you. Goodbye.

Same to you, too. You just don't seem to pay attention to my posts and keep misreading me.

 

[Colter]

Just FYI, Colter is in the Urantia cult.

FYI, AV1611VET does poorly in debates so he has to try to discredit his opponents in some other way (notice his chosen avatar)........and there is no such thing as a "Urantia Cult", there is a Urantia Book, which is a revelation to our world, but we have no leaders who tell us how to think and no error filled doctrines to defend. Most UB readers are independent. In some cities readers meet in homes, read and discuss, eat cake etc. There is no membership, no church, no ecclesiastical authority etc.

Christianity was a small cult inside Judaism for a long time, it had no mass appeal like it does today. But eventually, through missionary work, conversion, political persuasion and military force, Christianity became mainstream. We were born into it rather than choosing it.

 

[Colter]

I didn't think he was a Christian nor believed the bible but thanks for confirming that fact.

I am a disciple of Jesus and his Father, of his original gospel. I believe the true things in the Bible, not the unicorn or talking donkey, not the vastly exaggerated history of the Hebrew redactors, I don't believe God sent the Israelites to commit genocide while keeping the young virgin girls for themselves. I don't believe both conflicting versions of certain stories. etc.

The writing of humans doesn't equal the writings of God just because it was a long time ago.

 

[BobRyan]

So after scores of posts where you pompously proclaimed that poorly educated, unintelligent people were misreading the Bible and thinking erroneously that it said the creation happened in six days, now you admit that the six day creation is EXACTLY what Genesis 1 is teaching. You owe all of us an apology. I won't see it, of course. I've had enough. It's off to the ignore bin for you. Goodbye.

There is a problem when someone tries to have it "both ways" -- granted.

 

[Kenny'sID]

FYI, AV1611VET does poorly in debates so he has to try to discredit his opponents in some other way[/B] (notice his chosen avatar)........and there is no such thing as a "Urantia Cult", there is a Urantia Book, which is a revelation to our world, but we have no leaders who tell us how to think and no error filled doctrines to defend. Most UB readers are independent.

And you are on the ball, how?

Give me a break. I get so sick of this I'm all that, I do this, I'm of the truth/higher knowledge, I'm a scholar, and look at you attitude and then someone actually comes right out and says it? I'd at least TRY to keep the undesirable things about myself somewhat quiet.

I'd say some of you show how on the ball you really are, and not just by your ideas on things....your attitudes tell all.

Know them by their fruits.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I am a disciple of Jesus and his Father, of his original gospel.

And just what is that original Gospel? Is there a book that I can read? Is this something you made up?

 

[BobRyan]

The legal code of Ex 20:11 is not part of the demonstration of literal contradiction under discussion.

Hint: The title of the thread is specific to "Ex 20:9-11" (should have said Ex 20:8-11 but in any case Ex 20:11 is in it).

Secondly the legal code cannot be "bent" to "parable" or "symbolism" -- it is "legal code"

That Legal code says - " six days you shall labor...11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it."

This is where God Himself speak (not some ignorant uninformed pre-historic tribal primitive speaking) - and confirms the language of Gen 2:1-3 as literal -

Gen 2:1-4
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

Gen 2:1-4 NASB
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. 4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.

The literal contradiction is between the narrative of Genesis 1:25-26 where animals are created first, and then mankind; vs Genesis 2:18-19 where animals are created after mankind. Clearly both cannot be literally true.

Gen 1:2-2:4 is a timeboxed chronological sequence --- Gen 2:5-20 is not. There is no air in Gen 2, there is no sun or moon or seas in Gen 2 -- and there is no marriage or tree of life in Gen 1. The details of Gen 2 are added in the timeboxed chronological sequence into which they belong - rather than "ooops no -- let me write a contradictory story no so that evolutionists can pick-and-choose a 4.5 billion year timeline not found in either" -

So marriage in Gen 2 fits into day 6 of Gen 1.
Creation of land animals in Gen 2 - fits in day 6 of Gen 1.

A time with no plants in Gen 2 - fits in day 3 of Gen 1.

But there are no days in Gen 2:5-end at all - no timeline ... just "details" to insert into the already given timeline of Gen 1.

Yet in Both Gen 2:1-3 and Ex 20:11 tell of the same timeline - a literal 7 day week.

 

[BobRyan]

I am a disciple of Jesus and his Father, of his original gospel.

You already admitted that Jesus wrote no text in the Bible, that you have no source outside the Bible other than your own imagination and the Bible of Urantia invented in the 20th century - for what you call "The original gospel" contradicting the Bible.

Thus you freely admit that the basis for your own contradiction of the Bible - is something no Christian here would accept as legit.

I believe the true things in the Bible, not the unicorn or talking donkey, not the vastly exaggerated history of the Hebrew redactors, ..

The writing of humans doesn't equal the writings of God just because it was a long time ago.

That is a "deny the Bible first" methodology given as a defense for choosing Urantia over the Bible.

Urantia does specifically endorse blind-faith evolutionism and is a much better text for believing in evolutionism - that the Bible flatly rejects with its "literal 7 day week" in Ex 20:11 and Gen 2:1-4 - that is the subject of this thread.

 

[BobRyan]

And just what is that original Gospel? Is there a book that I can read? Is this something you made up?

The name of it is -- Urantia