Ten Commandments still valid so says Bible and pro-Sunday Scholars

[vinsight4u]

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[BobRyan]

Colossians 2:11 means what?

Col 2 is about the "commandments of man" vs those of God.

see to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands,

18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

===============

Paul contrasts the religion of man - with the true religion of God in Col 2

9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Christ pays our debt of sin - the debt owed due to sin - and gives us a new heart - a new creation -- under the NEW Covenant with Israel and with Judah - where the LAW of God is written on the heart and mind.

 

[bugkiller]

Romans 2:29
Start back at Romans 2:26.

I still believe what I said.

bugkiller

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[bugkiller]

Col 2 is about the "commandments of man" vs those of God.

see to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands,

18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

===============

Paul contrasts the religion of man - with the true religion of God in Col 2

9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Christ pays our debt of sin - the debt owed due to sin - and gives us a new heart - a new creation -- under the NEW Covenant with Israel and with Judah - where the LAW of God is written on the heart and mind.

And you won't.

bugkiller

 

[vinsight4u]

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[bugkiller]

Won't what?

deceive me and cheat me out of my salvation.

bugkiller

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Hammster]

ADMIN HAT ON


This thread has undergone a clean up.

Carry on.


ADMIN HAT OFF

 

[BobRyan]

To BobRyan,

Thanks. I'm still looking over your last post.
What do you think about Colossians 2:16?
especially the part as to any holyday or sabbath
days?

It says "food, or drink or sabbath day" -- neither food, nor drink nor Sabbath is being condemned or terminated there.

In Matt 7 we are told not to judge others - in Col 2 we are told not to judge others - pre-cross, post-cross -- no change.

 

[BobRyan]

Colossians 2:11 means what?

Col 2 is about the "commandments of man" vs those of God.

see to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands,

18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

===============

Paul contrasts the religion of man - with the true religion of God in Col 2

9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Christ pays our debt of sin - the debt owed due to sin - and gives us a new heart - a new creation -- under the NEW Covenant with Israel and with Judah - where the LAW of God is written on the heart and mind.

What version are you using?

NASB in this case - and in most cases when I post.

Do you think Colossians 2 is a message to the church/Jews/
or both?

It is a gentile church - but some Christian Jews are there.

I don't think Paul ever says "Jews - please don't read this" or "Gentiles - please don't read this" - so the entire church was reading it - however he still addresses the various concerns of each group of Christians.

v 13 "uncircumcision of your flesh"

Gentile

v14 "Blotting out the handwritings of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us..."

"Certificate of debt" -- the word translated "handwritting" is also the word for "bill' or "certificate of debt owed" -- like "speeding ticket - with fine attached".

Christ came to pay our debt of sin - the second death -- the one we are trying to avoid.

Because this confuses me. Where does the Bible
say that ever in Jerusalem the sabbath should not
be kept -as to the 7th day?

The Sabbath, and food, and drink in Col 2 are not being condemned or terminated. Rather it is judging others on those subjects that is being condemned by Paul - in Col 2 -- just as Christ did in Matt 7 before the cross while ALL OT Laws were in full effect - by everyone's standard.

I'm still reading over
your post. Thanks for the info.

You are welcome my friend.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

vinsight4u said: ↑
To BobRyan,

Thanks. I'm still looking over your last post.
What do you think about Colossians 2:16?
especially the part as to any holyday or sabbath
days?

It says "food, or drink or sabbath day" -- neither food, nor drink nor Sabbath is being condemned or terminated there.

In Matt 7 we are told not to judge others - in Col 2 we are told not to judge others - pre-cross, post-cross -- no change.

The Sabbath, and food, and drink in Col 2 are not being condemned or terminated. Rather it is judging others on those subjects that is being condemned by Paul - in Col 2 -- just as Christ did in Matt 7 before the cross while ALL OT Laws were in full effect - by everyone's standard.

The word is plural, so we are not to judge the Jews or Christian Sabbatarians for keeping the sabbaths.
This appears the main topic that the sabbatarian SDAs and MJs, focus on.............

Here is a post from another thread I found interesting and agree with:

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=sabbaths&t=YLT&ss=1#s=s_primary_0_1
"sabbaths"
occurs 53 times in 50 verses in the YLT.

Young) Colossians 2:
16 No then any ye let be judging you in food or in drink, or in part of feast/festival, or of young/new-moon, or of sabbaths,
17 which things is a shadow of the being-about, and the yet body of the Christ

Exo 31:13
'And thou, speak unto the sons of Israel, saying, Only My sabbaths ye do keep, for it is a sign between Me and you, to your generations,
to know that I, YAHWEH, am sanctifying you;


http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ay-with-the-sabbaths-not-the-sabbath.7738745/
Colossians 2:16 does away with the sabbaths, not the Sabbath.

Any argument that Christians must keep any part of the Mosaic Law is just dishonest about the structure and implementation of the Old Testament law, and indicates a severe ignorance about its applications. There are 613 Commandments, all of which are equally important, and all of them must be kept. Or none of them. There is NO distinction in the Mosaic Law between "ritualistic" and "moral" law.
Sabbattarian Christians conjure up that self-serving distinction purely out of convenience. They have picked a few of the 613 Commandments seemingly at random, based on the ones that happen to tickle their fancy. That is willfully dishonest to the intent of the Law.

If you were to approach an rabbinical expert on the Mosaic Law, and announce self-righteously that you are "keeping the Ten Commandments," they would look on you as though you are mentally deranged. Under Mosaic Law, there is no such a thing as the "Ten Commandments." What we know as the "Decalogue" is subsumed into the overall structure of the 613 Commandments. Judaism does not regard the "ten commandments" as anything particularly unique or special in relationship to the other 603 Commandments. They are merely ten among many other laws of equal importance.

Out of the mandatory 613 Mosaic laws, Sabbattarians pick and choose a tiny handful that happily coincide with their overall goals of preening self-righteousness over other Christians. They flatter themselves all too easily. If you understand the way the Mosaic law works, all they have merely done is make themselves looks bizarre and foolish. The Apostles repeatedly denounced such behavior as "Judaizing." The Apostles were experts on the Mosaic Law. Sabbattarians are not.

For Christians, Colossians 2:16-17 means what it says.

For Christians, the AD 50 Council of Jerusalem emphatically means what it says: Gentile Christians shall not be bound by the Mosaic law.

Any argument that the Sabbath is a memorial of Creation indicates an profound ignorance of the original Hebrew that both Genesis and Exodus were written in. The writer of the book of Genesis took great pains to make it clear that the Sabbath did not begin at the 7th day of Creation. Hebrew scholars have made that point absolutely clear. The Sabbath commandment was not given to the Children of Israel until at least a month after their delivery from Egyptian slavery. Meanwhile, they would have unintentionally broken the Sabbath at least four times during their crossing of the Sinai. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that anyone kept the Sabbath prior to Sinai. NONE!

Christians began worshiping on Sunday no later than 1 week after the Resurrection. Christ then Ascended on a Sunday. The Day of Pentecost, the Church's Birthday was on a Sunday. It would have been BIZARRE if the early Christians had continued to keep the Sabbath, given the impact those three events clearly would have had on them. Why were all the early Christians in one place on a Sunday when the Day of Pentecost took place? Because they had started doing so in honor of the Resurrection. By the Day of Pentecost, it was an entrenched Christian custom already.

The SDA argument that Constantine unilaterally destroyed the Sabbath has been forcibly disproven by their own Sabbath Expert, Samuelle Bachiochi.

The argument for keeping just one pet commandment out of the 613 simply denigrates the obvious meaning of the crucifixion, the Resurrection, the Ascension and the Day of Pentecost. It is a Salvation by Works theory of "Partial Atonement." It is an argument that one must keep the entirety of the Mosaic Law, because Christ's sacrifice is not enough. Fortunately for Christians, even Christians who keep the Sabbath aren't even CLOSE to meeting that burden.

If you want to keep the Sabbath and the rest of the laws and have an ounce of integrity, you must go through the full-scale conversion process to Judaism that is mandatory. It is extremely highly-unlikely any Sabbattarian Christian would do that. For an unconverted Gentile to keep the Sabbath is such a serious offense against God and a defilement against the Sabbath, an observant Jew is required the impose the Death Penalty!.

Christians who keep the Sabbath are as bizarre as if they suddenly developed a yen to sacrifice some animals in their backyard temple. Or kept the Feast of the New Moons.

.

 

[BobRyan]

The word is plural, so we are not to judge the Jews or Christian Sabbatarians for keeping the sabbaths.
This appears the main topic that the sabbatarian SDAs and MJs, focus on.............

In real life - the SDAs and other groups are not judging anyone - they are saying what the Bible says -- no need to add "Mr. Smith" to it at all.

It would be like saying "Hey you can't tell us that the Bible says not to take the Lord's name in vain - that is judging".

We merely state what the bible facts are.

=====

However that is not to say that there are no posts on this area of the board that go something like "tell me how you keep the Sabbath and I will tell you how you are sinning, breaking the Sabbath" -

or "you are always breaking the Sabbath" --

Thus posts are here - but they are not posted by those promoting the Ten Commandments or the Bible Sabbath.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In real life - the SDAs and other groups are not judging anyone - they are saying what the Bible says -- no need to add "Mr. Smith" to it at all.

It would be like saying "Hey you can't tell us that the Bible says not to take the Lord's name in vain - that is judging".

We merely state what the bible facts are.

Well darn, why didn't I think of that?
All Christians state what the bible facts are. [except in the case of apostate Judaism and Islam of course whom don't believe in the NT/NC of the Bible]
Do you believe the Jews, Muslims, other religions and Christians will be judged differently at the final Throne judgement?

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

JOHN 5:
45 "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you — Moses, in whom you trust.
46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote about me. 47
But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the Rich Man as the House of Judah, the Jews!

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages........................................

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/is-not-honoring-the-sabbath-a-sin.7402803/
Is not honoring the sabbath a sin?

Every commandment works in TWO DISTINCT WAYS...

These 'ways' are demonstrated simply

ALL the commandments are fulfilled when we love our neighbors as ourselves. The entirety of the LAW resides upon THIS ONE GOAL. We'll call it RULE #1. I'd call it rule #2, but John the Apostle was very clear that if we can't love our 'brother' then any claim to loving God is A LIE from a 'murderer.' So, in all matters of LAW...see RULE #1. This would appear to be a good and steadfast measure of ALL LAW.

So, the non-pork eaters JUSTIFY themselves for their supposed obedience, and in their MINDS they heap SIN, CONDEMNATION and the potential of ETERNAL DEATH on those who eat pork...

Did they then follow THE LAW?

See Rule #1 and simply compare.

Same measure for EVERY COMMAND or LAW. All of them are FULfilled by loving our neighbors as ourselves. If someone wants some perceived ADD ON blessing for not eating pork, HEY, great...DON'T eat...But I might also advise to DO NOT EAT CONDEMNATION, COUNTING SINS and promoting ETERNAL DEATH to your neighbors because THAT is where the REAL SWINE MEAL exists for the MIND.

In these two ways the LAW is also A TRAP and a REVEALER of what 'really' is in the HEART of those who reflect on same. EVIL will come forth from MANY and the LOVE of many WILL WAX COLD...so cold that the legalist will throw any person to eternal death over the SMALLEST infraction they can trumph up...

Snake handlers would be well advised to put their hands on the real snake crawling around in their HEADS...

enjoy!

squint

Ok, I'm going to make this as simple as I can.

First: Do you believe that there will be people that get cast into hell. If no then don't bother reading any further because it won't help.

Second: It's about a lifestyle. We all fall, we are all sinners, and we are all guilty of death. Should one person think that their "good deeds" are going to get them into heaven as opposed to someone else who doesn't do what they are doing, then they are mistaken. All are saved by grace and not works.

What we don't want to do however is live like we did before we came to Christ. If our brother is in darkness and we neglect to inform them, then they will die but their blood will be upon us. The converse holds true that if we warn them but they do not pay heed, then they shall die, but we shall be delivered because we did that which was asked of us (one of the minor prophets I believe, but I can't recall right now).

If we love our brother, than we will let them know when they are in error, and what the consequence is if they continue in error. No one knows what the end is for any individual besides God, but we all know what the end of sin is.

.

 

[BobRyan]

Well darn, why didn't I think of that?
All Christians state what the bible facts are.

Not in all cases... in some cases the effort is to explain why we must all ignore this or that part of the Bible.

In some cases we find "tell me how you keep the Sabbath so I can accuse you of breaking it" as we get from some who oppose the Ten Commandments.

This is a subject area where some folks say that the Bible is right about the Ten Commandments and others say we are supposed to ignore them - all or at least one of them.

Stick around - you will see what I mean.

JOHN 5:
45 "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you — Moses, in whom you trust.
46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote about me. 47
But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

Luke 16 "If they do not listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead".

Col 2 is not an example of Paul trying to condemn anyone who dares to state what the Law of God says as though the "Commandments of God are a good thing".

In fact in 1 Cor 6 Paul gives many examples of law breaking and in Romans 6 he adds that this would be a huge problem for Christians should they choose to engage in it.

 

[BobRyan]

It seems from the first verse of Colossians 2 that
Paul is referring to anyone of faith in Jesus Christ
that is in Colosse and Laodicea and others that had not yet
seen Paul in person.

Colossians 2:1
Colossians 1:2//// saints and faithful brethren

Agreed. As noted previously - Paul seldom writes in the form "this is not for Gentile Christians to read" or "this is not for Jewish Christians to read"

 

[vinsight4u]

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