.

[sunlover1]

How would you prove it?



The OP is addressing God speaking directly to people today. As I have explained, I (along with most of Christendom) hold that to be an errant view; however, I never said that God did not or would not physically heal people today. There's the distinction.

Why would He heal but not speak?
Any particular reason?

 

[sunlover1]

All of orthodox Christianity for the past 2,000 believes that the canon of scripture is closed, and most of them understand that to mean that God does not speak directly to men any longer. Even when He did speak in the past, it was only to a very select group and only for a very specific purpose in redemptive history. This is the view of the vast majority of Christianity, so I'm not the one holding to an unusual or heterodox position. You are.

I don't see why you'd say that.
Even a Presbyterian church posted about how to hear God:
Article
"...The Bible proclaims a God who speaks. Folks, this is biblical. Of course, He speaks authoritatively and perfectly in His written word. But even this Word talks about his living voice. It sets up a relationship where we can hear the Lord and we’ll talk about how we do that. But the Bible proclaims a God who speaks to me in a living way right now! We heard that as Marilyn read John 10. Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice.” That’s a characteristic of being a disciple of Jesus. My sheep hear my voice. The whole point, Jesus says, is my sheep can grow into being able to hear it. Otherwise why would He bother speaking to us? They will run away from a stranger. Why? They don’t recognize His voice. So the Bible is saying here not only that Jesus speaks, but that you and I can learn, as John 10 just said, to recognize His voice. We can learn to distinguish it from the robber’s voice!..."

 

[Peter J Barban]

I don't see why you'd say that.
Even a Presbyterian church posted about how to hear God:
Article
"...The Bible proclaims a God who speaks. Folks, this is biblical. Of course, He speaks authoritatively and perfectly in His written word. But even this Word talks about his living voice. It sets up a relationship where we can hear the Lord and we’ll talk about how we do that. But the Bible proclaims a God who speaks to me in a living way right now! We heard that as Marilyn read John 10. Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice.” That’s a characteristic of being a disciple of Jesus. My sheep hear my voice. The whole point, Jesus says, is my sheep can grow into being able to hear it. Otherwise why would He bother speaking to us? They will run away from a stranger. Why? They don’t recognize His voice. So the Bible is saying here not only that Jesus speaks, but that you and I can learn, as John 10 just said, to recognize His voice. We can learn to distinguish it from the robber’s voice!..."

Excellent find, sunlover1!

According to wikipedia :Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by Scripture alone") is the Christian doctrine that the Bible is the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice.

According to the Bible in 1 Corinthians 14:1
"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy."

So, the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice tells us to desire prophecy. If you deny the scripture's authority on the practice of prophecy, then you are not Sola Scriptura.

You cannot place a doctrine that is not in the Bible above the Bible and call yourself Sola Scriptura.

 

[swordsman1]

I don't see why you'd say that.
Even a Presbyterian church posted about how to hear God:
Article
"...The Bible proclaims a God who speaks. Folks, this is biblical. Of course, He speaks authoritatively and perfectly in His written word. But even this Word talks about his living voice. It sets up a relationship where we can hear the Lord and we’ll talk about how we do that. But the Bible proclaims a God who speaks to me in a living way right now! We heard that as Marilyn read John 10. Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice.” That’s a characteristic of being a disciple of Jesus. My sheep hear my voice. The whole point, Jesus says, is my sheep can grow into being able to hear it. Otherwise why would He bother speaking to us? They will run away from a stranger. Why? They don’t recognize His voice. So the Bible is saying here not only that Jesus speaks, but that you and I can learn, as John 10 just said, to recognize His voice. We can learn to distinguish it from the robber’s voice!..."

I fail to see how a sermon delivered at a church in Rochelle, Illinois in 2010 by a junior minister containing a number of errors is proof of anything.

 

[swordsman1]

So, the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice tells us to desire prophecy. If you deny the scripture's authority on the practice of prophecy, then you are not Sola Scriptura.

You cannot place a doctrine that is not in the Bible above the Bible and call yourself Sola Scriptura.

Paul's message was directed at the church in Corinth which certainly was to desire the gift of prophecy as they didn't have a New Testament to guide them in the faith.

If you take it to mean that individual believers can desire and seek certain gifts which they fancy you end up with all sorts of difficulties because it is the Holy Spirit alone who determines who has what gift (1 Cor 12:11). Paul goes on to teach an important lesson in 1 Cor 12:14-20 whereby God alone places gifted individuals in the body of Christ just as he wanted them. This was the problem the Corinthians had - everybody wanted to be 'an eye'. You can desire a certain gift you fancy as much as you like. You can pray for it and seek it till you're blue in the face but unless it was given to you as he preordained you won't get it. People who refuse to accept that and insist they must have the gift they desire find themselves practicing an unbiblical counterfeit version of the gift.

In any case many of the gifts are no longer in operation. Most people would agree that the gift of apostleship has ceased, and on the basis of scripture and history it can be demonstrated that the miraculous and revelatory gifts (tongues, healings, prophecy etc) also ceased.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Paul's message was directed at the church in Corinth which certainly was to desire the gift of prophecy as they didn't have a New Testament to guide them in the faith.

If you take it to mean that individual believers can desire and seek certain gifts which they fancy you end up with all sorts of difficulties because it is the Holy Spirit alone who determines who has what gift (1 Cor 12:11). Paul goes on to teach an important lesson in 1 Cor 12:14-20 whereby God alone places gifted individuals in the body of Christ just as he wanted them. This was the problem the Corinthians had - everybody wanted to be 'an eye'. You can desire a certain gift you fancy as much as you like. You can pray for it and seek it till you're blue in the face but unless it was given to you as he preordained you won't get it. People who refuse to accept that and insist they must have the gift they desire find themselves practicing an unbiblical counterfeit version of the gift.

In any case many of the gifts are no longer in operation. Most people would agree that the gift of apostleship has ceased, and on the basis of scripture and history it can be demonstrated that the miraculous and revelatory gifts (tongues, healings, prophecy etc) also ceased.

How can it escape you that you continually use extrabiblical sources to tell us why God doesn't speak (once we have the canon) and certain gifts have ceased? This cessationist teaching does not come from the Bible. The New Testament says God gives out these gifts. Anyone who claims Sola Scriptura must believe that God has not changed his will.

The teaching that God has stopped certain gifts is not in the Bible and it was not a popular teaching until the Reformation. Reformation teaching cannot claim greater authority than the Bible under Sola Scriptura.

Are you claiming that the Bible is our authority for faith and practice in everything except the gifts of the Holy Spirit? That's awfully convenient.

 

[swordsman1]

How can it escape you that you continually use extrabiblical sources to tell us why God doesn't speak (once we have the canon) and certain gifts have ceased? This cessationist teaching does not come from the Bible. The New Testament says God gives out these gifts. Anyone who claims Sola Scriptura must believe that God has not changed his will.

The teaching that God has stopped certain gifts is not in the Bible and it was not a popular teaching until the Reformation. Reformation teaching cannot claim greater authority than the Bible under Sola Scriptura.

Are you claiming that the Bible is our authority for faith and practice in everything except the gifts of the Holy Spirit? That's awfully convenient.

God has frequently changed his dealings with mankind throughout biblical history. Do we walk around in a garden with fig-leaves to cover our modesty? Do we still sacrifice animals at an alter? Is God still physically walking among us today? Do we still have apostles raising the dead and instantly healing people with the pass of their shadow? Do we still have people speaking foreign languages they never learned?

Did you not notice there was a 400 year period between the testaments when there was NO prophecy (because the OT canon was complete)? Now that the NT canon is complete it is perfectly reasonable to expect prophecy to have ceased once again just as the bible said it would: "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears" (1 Cor 13:9-10). Prophecy was only for the foundation period of the church as it was "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone" (Eph 2:20). The words of scripture are a "more sure" version of prophecy: "So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place" (2 Peter 1:19). Now He speaks to us not by prophecy but by his Son: "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son" (Heb 1:1-2).

 

[sunlover1]

I fail to see how a sermon delivered at a church in Rochelle, Illinois in 2010 by a junior minister containing a number of errors is proof of anything.

It's merely proof that an "orthodox" church isn't claiming that God stopped speaking.
That's all.
His claim seemed like a sideways way of saying that only us goofballs hear God nowdays lol.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Look at the prophetic example of Charles Spurgeon

“I could tell as many as a dozen similar cases [emphasis mine] in which I pointed at somebody in the hall without having the slightest knowledge of the person, or any idea that what I said was right, except that I believed I was moved by the Spirit to say it; and so striking has been my description, that the persons have gone away, and said to their friends, ‘Come, see a man that told me all things that ever I did; beyond a doubt, he must have been sent of God to my soul, or else he could not have described me so exactly.’ And not only so, but I have known many instances in which the thoughts of men have been revealed from the pulpit. I have sometimes seen persons nudge their neighbours with their elbow, because they had got a smart hit, and they have been heard to say, when they were going out, ‘The preacher told us just what we said to one another when we went in at the door’” (ibid., 227).

----------------------------------------​

“Our personal pathway has been so frequently directed contrary to our own design and beyond our own conception by singularly powerful impulses, and irresistibly suggestive providences, that it were wanton wickedness for us to deride the doctrine that God occasionally grants to his servants a special and perceptible manifestation of his will for their guidance, over and above the strengthening energies of the Holy Spirit, and the sacred teaching of the inspired Word. We are not likely to adopt the peculiarities of the Quakers, but in this respect we are heartily agreed with them.


It needs a deliberate and judicious reflection to distinguish between the actual and apparent in professedly preternatural intimations, and if opposed to Scripture and common sense, we must neither believe in them nor obey them. The precious gift of reason is not to be ignored; we are not to be drifted hither and thither by every wayward impulse of a fickle mind, nor are we to be led into evil by suppositious impressions; these are misuses of a great truth, a murderous use of most useful edged tools. But notwithstanding all the folly of hair-brained rant, we believe that the unseen hand may be at times assuredly felt by gracious souls, and the mysterious power which guided the minds of the seers of old may, even to this day, sensibly overshadow reverent spirits. We would speak discreetly, but we dare say no less.”

I agree with Spurgeon and the New Testament.

 

[swordsman1]

Look at the prophetic example of Charles Spurgeon

“I could tell as many as a dozen similar cases [emphasis mine] in which I pointed at somebody in the hall without having the slightest knowledge of the person, or any idea that what I said was right, except that I believed I was moved by the Spirit to say it; and so striking has been my description, that the persons have gone away, and said to their friends, ‘Come, see a man that told me all things that ever I did; beyond a doubt, he must have been sent of God to my soul, or else he could not have described me so exactly.’ And not only so, but I have known many instances in which the thoughts of men have been revealed from the pulpit. I have sometimes seen persons nudge their neighbours with their elbow, because they had got a smart hit, and they have been heard to say, when they were going out, ‘The preacher told us just what we said to one another when we went in at the door’” (ibid., 227).

----------------------------------------​

“Our personal pathway has been so frequently directed contrary to our own design and beyond our own conception by singularly powerful impulses, and irresistibly suggestive providences, that it were wanton wickedness for us to deride the doctrine that God occasionally grants to his servants a special and perceptible manifestation of his will for their guidance, over and above the strengthening energies of the Holy Spirit, and the sacred teaching of the inspired Word. We are not likely to adopt the peculiarities of the Quakers, but in this respect we are heartily agreed with them.


It needs a deliberate and judicious reflection to distinguish between the actual and apparent in professedly preternatural intimations, and if opposed to Scripture and common sense, we must neither believe in them nor obey them. The precious gift of reason is not to be ignored; we are not to be drifted hither and thither by every wayward impulse of a fickle mind, nor are we to be led into evil by suppositious impressions; these are misuses of a great truth, a murderous use of most useful edged tools. But notwithstanding all the folly of hair-brained rant, we believe that the unseen hand may be at times assuredly felt by gracious souls, and the mysterious power which guided the minds of the seers of old may, even to this day, sensibly overshadow reverent spirits. We would speak discreetly, but we dare say no less.”

I agree with Spurgeon and the New Testament.

But did Spurgeon receive a message from God? Did God tell him to say those words? No. It was an extraordinary case of spiritual insight. You can certainly receive insight from the Holy Spirit and He can certainly direct our thoughts. I'm not denying that. But that is not prophecy or new revelation. Spurgeon never said "God told me..." or claimed to receive a prophecy.

It was a special insight that Spurgeon experienced. Good for him. But an individual's experiences does not determine doctrine, especially when they are clearly not even the same thing.

 

[swordsman1]

Seeing as Spurgeon has been quoted, I thought I'd share a couple more of his gems.

How does God speak to us then, and how does He expect us to answer? He speaks to us in the written Word. This “more sure Word of testimony, whereunto you do well if you take heed, as unto a light that shines in a dark place.” He speaks to us also in the ministry of His Word, when things new and old which are in Holy Scripture are brought forth by His chosen servants and are applied with power to our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

The Lord is not dumb in the midst of His family, though, alas, some of His children appear to be dull of hearing. Though the Urim and Thummim are no longer to be seen upon the breasts of mortal men, yet the oracle is not silent. O that we were always ready to hear the loving voice of the Lord. ​

http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols19-21/chs1255.pdf

“But how does the Lord speak?” someone asks. That is a very important question. I know that He has many ways of speaking to the hearts of His people. We do not expect to hear audible words. It is not by sense that we live—not even by the sense of hearing—but by faith. We believe and so we apprehend God.

God often speaks to His children through His works. Are there not days when the mountains and the hills break forth before us into singing and the trees of the field clap their hands because God is speaking by them? Do you not lift up your eyes to the heavens at night and watch the stars and seem to hear God speaking to you in the solemn silence? That man who never hears God speak through His works is, I think, hardly in a healthy state of mind. Why, the very beauty of spring with its promise, the fullness of summer, the ripeness of autumn and even the chilly blasts of winter are all vocal if we have but ears to hear what they say!

God also speaks to His children very loudly by His Providence. Is there no voice in affliction? Has pain no tongue? Has the bed of languishing no eloquence? The Lord speaks to us, sometimes, by bereavement—when one after another has been taken away, God has spoken to us. The deaths of others are for our spiritual life—sharp medicine for our soul’s health. God has spoken to many a mother by the dear babe she has had to lay in the grave. And many a man has, for the first time, listened to God’s voice when he has heard the passing bell that spoke of the departure of one dearer to him than life itself. God speaks to us, if we will but hear, in all the arrangements of Providence both pleasant and painful. Whether He caresses or chastises, there is a voice in all that He does. Oh, that we were not so deaf!

But the Lord speaks to us chiefly through His Word. Oh, what converse God has with His people when they are quietly reading their Bibles! There, in your still room, as you have been reading a chapter, have you not felt as if God spoke those words straight to your heart then and there? Has not Christ Himself said to you, while you have been reading His Word, “Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in Me”? The text does not seem to be like an old letter in a book, rather is it like a fresh speech, newly spoken from the mouth of the Lord to you. It has been so, dear Friends, has it not?
...
There are certain fanatics who get delirious and dream that they are prophets, and I know not what. But we just put them to the side. This is a very different thing from being guided by the Spirit of God in all the actions of life so as to obey the will of the Lord, sometimes, in cases where we might not have known it to be His will, or might have omitted it.
​

http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols43-45/chs2526.pdf

 

[sunlover1]

Keep insisting our God doesn't speak to us and you can guarantee
that for you, He never will.
ONE day you may need to hear His voice PERSONALLY.
Scripture isn't going to tell you which doctor can save someone
or which job will lead to misery, or that buying a home in that
neighborhood will lead to an entire summer of hell.. etc.
Then again, He can speak to us and tell us that man/woman
is trouble, and we can totally disregard His help.
Which is same as not having it to begin with.
We all need to be transformed by the renewing of our minds.
ALL of us!

 

[swordsman1]

Another gem from the 'Prince of Preachers':

The saint cares not for the dogmas of priests or the traditions of the elders, but, "Order my steps in Your Word" is his prayer. Some, I know, fall into a very vicious habit, which habit they excuse themselves—namely, that of ordering their footsteps according to impressions.

Every now and then I meet with people whom I think to be rather weak in the head, who will journey from place to place and will perform follies by the gross under the belief that they are doing the will of God because some silly whim of their diseased brains is imagined to be an inspiration from above. ​

http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols13-15/chs878.pdf

 

[jimmyjimmy]

My guess is that expressive individualism is at the heart of the idea, even the expectation, that God speaks to every and all Christians, individually.

 

[sunlover1]

My guess is that expressive individualism is at the heart of the idea, even the expectation, that God speaks to every and all Christians, individually.

I call it Scripture! Thought you were SS too.
IOW, The very oracles of God say that He speaks "to His people.
HEAR THE WORD OF THE LORD!!!:

Psalms:
Let me hear what God the Lord will speak,
for he will speak peace to his people,
to his saints; but let them not turn back to folly.

John 14:21
Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is
who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my
Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

Or maybe it's only the "Upright" jk
Proverbs 3:30-32
Do not contend with a man for no reason, when he
has done you no harm. Do not envy a man of violence
and do not choose any of his ways, for the devious
person is an abomination to the Lord, but the
upright are in his confidence.

Psalm 91, an old favorite:

Because he holds fast to me in love, I will deliver him;
I will protect him, because he knows my name.
15 When he calls to me, I will answer him;
("him" is "He who dwells in the shelter of the most High)

Psalm 46:10
“Be still, and know that I am God.
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth!”

 

[Peter J Barban]

Another gem from the 'Prince of Preachers':

The saint cares not for the dogmas of priests or the traditions of the elders, but, "Order my steps in Your Word" is his prayer. Some, I know, fall into a very vicious habit, which habit they excuse themselves—namely, that of ordering their footsteps according to impressions.

Every now and then I meet with people whom I think to be rather weak in the head, who will journey from place to place and will perform follies by the gross under the belief that they are doing the will of God because some silly whim of their diseased brains is imagined to be an inspiration from above. ​

http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols13-15/chs878.pdf

You can call it what you will, Spurgeon's mind received impressions regarding specific information about individuals from the Holy Spirit. This is no mere insight, it was divinely revealed information that Spurgeon could not have known beforehand. It functioned as a sign which validated his preaching and led people to repent.

I agree with Spurgeon's emphasis on the Bible. I am a Bible teacher and theologian. My priority is on understanding God's written word and helping my students do the same. But, I also hear from God and find his personal direction invaluable.

Here is an example of prophecy where God does not speak audibly and the prophecy is not written in scripture: 1 Samuel 10:9-11

9 As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul’s heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day. 10 When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying. 11 When all those who had formerly known him saw him prophesying with the prophets, they asked each other, “What is this that has happened to the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?”​

So even in the OT, prophecy is not as rigid as cessationists claim.

 

[swordsman1]

You can call it what you will, Spurgeon's mind received impressions regarding specific information about individuals from the Holy Spirit. This is no mere insight, it was divinely revealed information that Spurgeon could not have known beforehand. It functioned as a sign which validated his preaching and led people to repent.

I agree with Spurgeon's emphasis on the Bible. I am a Bible teacher and theologian. My priority is on understanding God's written word and helping my students do the same. But, I also hear from God and find his personal direction invaluable.

Spurgeon didn't regard the insights he received to be inspired revelation from God or prophecy. Rather he condemned people who claimed to receive prophecies! He also utterly condemned people who are guided by impressions which they think are from God. He calls them "weak in the head" following "silly whims of their diseased brains". Make no mistake, Spurgeon was no continuationist.

Spurgeon was an amazing preacher. He preached 3550 sermons before he died at age 58. He preached from the top of his head as the Holy Spirit led him. And occasionally the Holy Spirit would led him to say words which miraculously happened to speak directly to a member of his congregation. He certainly did not consider such rare insights to be a normal part of our Christian lives, but instead continually pointed to scripture as being our guide.

In any case it is Scripture - not Spurgeon - that is the final authority in this matter. You do not begin with somebody's experience and then try to mold doctrine around it. Scripture must govern our interpretation of experience, not the other way around. Scripture clearly describes the nature of prophecy. And nowhere does it say God gives us new revelations by feelings or impressions.

Here is an example of prophecy where God does not speak audibly and the prophecy is not written in scripture: 1 Samuel 10:9-11

9 As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul’s heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day. 10 When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying. 11 When all those who had formerly known him saw him prophesying with the prophets, they asked each other, “What is this that has happened to the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?”
So even in the OT, prophecy is not as rigid as cessationists claim.

That passage says nothing about the manner in which Saul or the procession of prophets received their prophecies. In the absence of such a description it must be assumed to be the normal biblical method.

 

[Berean777]

The idea the God talks back to us when we pray has become so accepted that it's difficult to challenge, but is it true or a cliché?

God speaks to us in a qualifiable manner that is not any of the above options. God speaks to out hearts, as the saying goes I stand at the door of your hearts and knock and if anyone hears my voice and opens their heart to me, then I will enter in and SUP with him/her.

God therefore speaks to us by this sequential manner that is tested and repeatable from person to person, that is.....

He initially speaks to us through the conviction of our hearts, that presents a real dilemma, that is what decision or path should I take A or B.

Then after this heart felt conviction, we are adjured to pray about it and to try and to establish a one on one communication with God.

This then results in a turn of fate event(s), where God will send people along the way to speak through, by amazingly presenting an answer to the question out of the blue, that convicts one's heart, without having to tell that person your life's story, as if they knew about it all along.

Then turn of fate results in another context of situation that presents itself that opens the way to the correct choice, and then almost miraculously you are being guided to take a leap of faith into that direction, knowing fully well that the correct decision has already been made for you and that it only requires faith on your part to step forward in that direction.

This is how God communicates through life's experiences and this relationship grows as one listens closer to their calling.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Smart phones really help with "words of knowledge".

 

[sunlover1]

Smart phones really help with "words of knowledge".

Post 855
I responded with proofs from Scripture
Read the Word of The Lord
Maybe He's speaking to your heart.
Maybe He has so much more He longs
to do for you and through you. HA! I'm
Sure He has so
Much more He wants to do for and through
All of us!