Believe the Bible - bend the Bible - deny the Bible... pick one

[sculleywr]

Are you now Roman Catholic?? Do you declare that the Pope is your leader and the authority that you follow without question?

Non sequitir of all non sequitirs. The Church is not the Pope. The Church has authority, not the Pope.

So take your falsehoods elsewhere.

 

[Extraneous]

How do you know they were written by Paul? Without what the Church has told you, you don't know who wrote the gospels, because they do not identify the writer in them.

And the Authority of the Church is the authority of Christ, for the Head of the Church is Christ.

But if you are going to tell me that YOU have more authority than the Church, I will point you to the head of your church. He can be found in every mirror near you. Every time you see your reflection, you are looking at the reflection of your own Pope, so kiss your ring.

No way you can convince me your Church is the one Paul founded. He didnt ask dead people to pray for him. Get real. You rob the scriptures as if you owned them, and you graciously give them to me, but in reality you just take what isnt yours. Go pray to some dead people and leave me alone.

 

[Extraneous]

Are you now Roman Catholic?? Do you declare that the Pope is your leader and the authority that you follow without question?

He contradicts himself constantly. He also acts like his Church gave us the scriptures, although they existed in the Churches long before His Church started teaching false doctrine about talking to dead saints. If he had an ounce of wisdom he would just be quiet, but i guess i'll need to just do that myself. I cant stand his church with their arrogant assertion of authority. I think i'll log out and never log in again. If i hear one more word from his mouth i'll throw the scriptures in the trash and never again read them. I wish i could forget all memory of this place, but its much too late for that. God help me, i cant stand Christianity anymore.

 

[sculleywr]

No way you can convince me your Church is the one Paul founded. He didnt ask dead people to pray for him. Get real. You rob the scriptures as if you owned them, and you graciously give them to me, but in reality you just take what isnt yours. Go pray to some dead people and leave me alone.

If no church is the one established by Paul, then Christ is a liar. Plain and simple. So if I believe you, then I reject Christ. Are you happy with that result?

 

[sculleywr]

Your church's theology is one big non sequitir. Dont you some dead people to talk to?

Nice flame. Go light a campfire

 

[sculleywr]

He contradicts himself constantly. He also acts like his Church gave us the scriptures, although they existed in the Churches long before His Church started teaching false doctrine about talking to dead saints. If he had an ounce of wisdom he would just be quiet, but i guess i'll need to just do that myself. I cant stand his church with their arrogant assertion of authority. I think i'll log out and never log in again. If i hear one more word from his mouth i'll throw the scriptures in the trash and never again read them. I wish i could forget all memory of this place, but its much too late for that. God help me, i cant stand Christianity anymore.

Ok, then whose Church made the canon of Scripture? Where is that Church, because that is the Church of Paul. If you can't believe it exists, then you believe the gates of hell prevailed against the Church.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Extraneous said: ↑
Your church's theology is one big non sequitir. Dont you some dead people to talk to?

Nice flame. Go light a campfire

Campfire flames are particularly prettier to look at by night..........

Now that ya mention it, Revelation shows Jesus with eyes as a flame of fire.

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

LUKE 16:24
"Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham! have mercy on me! and send Lazarus! that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue;
for I am tormented in this flame.' "

First, notice that the rich man identifies Abraham as his father, just as the Pharisees did (John 8:39).
The rich man (Judah) is now shown to be undergoing reproof, testing, and punishment in "this flame" (singular, not "these flames").
It is quite obvious that the flame is not literal, because a wet fingertip on the tongue would do nothing to quench the pain inflicted by real flames..............

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage.
Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!

Reve 1:13
The yet head of Him, and the hairs, white as wool, white as snow.
And the eyes of Him as flame of fire
[Reve 2:18/19:12]

Reve 2:18 And to the Messenger of the Assenbly in Thyatira, write!
'Now-this is saying the Son of the God, the one having the eyes of Him as flame of fire
and the feet of Him likeas burnished copper.'
[Reve 1:13/19:12]

Reve 19:12 The yet eyes of Him *as* a flame of fire
and upon the head of Him diadems many, having a name having been written which no-one has seen except He.
[Reve 1:13/2:18][/quote]

 

[BobRyan]

He contradicts himself constantly. He also acts like his Church gave us the scriptures, although they existed in the Churches long before His Church started teaching false doctrine about talking to dead saints. If he had an ounce of wisdom he would just be quiet, but i guess i'll need to just do that myself. I cant stand his church with their arrogant assertion of authority. I think i'll log out and never log in again. If i hear one more word from his mouth i'll throw the scriptures in the trash and never again read them. I wish i could forget all memory of this place, but its much too late for that. God help me, i cant stand Christianity anymore.

Everyone has free will - and everyone has the right to make choices that we don't like. Consider the free will choices people were making around Christ -- surely he had perfect doctrine, perfect teaching, perfect love for everyone - yet the people around him even in the inner circle of 12 would grieve Him. In the garden of Gethsemane He couldn't even get them to pray with Him for one hour -- on the night of His supreme agony - yet He had stayed up all night at times in the past - praying for them.

Peter denied him three times. Peter whom He called "satan" in Matt 16 right after blessing him - because Peter immediately began to "correct Christ" almost the moment he was blessed by Christ.

Judas betrayed Him -- but all of the disciples fled when the mob came and it turned out they were not going to be allowed to fight to defend Christ.

How many times in the book of Acts did the Jews chase Paul from city to city - stirring up the people against his efforts to evangelize.

Consider what you find in Acts 13
44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us,
‘I have placed You as a light for the Gentiles,
That You may bring salvation to the end of the earth.’”
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord;

Notice what Christ said in Matt 10
34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.
37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

I am not saying you have to stay on a debate board. Maybe some time of quiet meditation is just the perfect remedy in your situation - all of us need that and use it regularly. But in all things - you cannot let others dictate what your faith will be. Loyalty to Christ rises far above earthly relationships according to Christ in Matt 10.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok, then whose Church made the canon of Scripture?

Not the EO.

NOT the RCC.

The Jews wrote the Hebrew Bible and canonized it many centuries before either of those two denominations came into existence.

The NT saints in the first century were not waiting 3 or 4 centuries for late converts to christianity to leave paganism and then tell them "what to read".

I think everyone can see this point clearly.

Where is that Church, because that is the Church of Paul. If you can't believe it exists, then you believe the gates of hell prevailed against the Church.

But not against Christ or the true Christians that refused to go into error. As you seem to point out - those who see error in the Orthodox Churches and in the RCC - as it was piling in during the dark ages - cannot possibly argue that they were doctrinaly pure at that time -- or even to this very day.

==========
This thread is not about the dead-end argument over the Hebrew Bible - an argument that goes nowhere because the Hebrew Bible text is not authored by Catholics and no Jew was waiting for Catholics to tell them what it is - and it is the same today as it was in Christ's day -- the same text content as what we find in the Protestant Bible.

The dead-end argument over the NT text also goes nowhere since both Catholics and Protestants have the same text.

That only leaves the dead-end argument over the Jewish Apocrypha which the Jews do not include in their Canon - and which even the Catholic Jerome rejected when translating the text to create the Vulgate Bible.

How many ways are there to circle back to a dead-end??

You cannot turn every thread about the bible - to a dead-end debate over the Jewish Apocrypha - which both the Jews and the RCC's own Jerome REJECTED as part of the Hebrew Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

The Catholic historian Thomas Bokenkotter's best selling pro-Catholic book "A Concise History of the Catholic church" makes it abundantly clear

-Pg 49 speaks of the change that occurred in the 4th century

=================================================================
"the clergy at first were not sharply differentiated from the laity..the clergy married, raised families, and earned their livelihood at some trade or profession. But as the practice grew of paying them..they withdrew more and more from secular pursuits, until by the fourth century such withdrawal was deemed obligatory"

"at first the Christian presbyter or elder (as they were really known) avoided any resemblance to the pagan or Jewish priestsand, in fact even deliberately refused to be called a priest. He (the real Christian leader) saw his primary function as the ministry of the word. ..but the image of the Christian presbyter gradually took on a sacral character."

"the more elaborate liturgy of the post-Constantinian era, with its features borrowed from paganism, enhanced the image of the minister as a sacred personage. The ministry of the word diminished in importance when infant baptism became the rule rather than the exception, for infants could not be preached to. " (Bokenkotter. Pg 49)

=========================

That is not a Protestant or Evangelical or EO historian - it is a RC historian.

 

[BobRyan]

But if you are going to tell me that YOU have more authority than the Church, I will point you to the head of your church. He can be found in every mirror near you. Every time you see your reflection, you are looking at the reflection of your own Pope, so kiss your ring.

Are you now Roman Catholic?? Do you declare that the Pope is your leader and the authority that you follow without question?

Non sequitir of all non sequitirs. The Church is not the Pope. The Church has authority, not the Pope.

So take your falsehoods elsewhere.

On the contrary - your argument that trust in the Bible makes the Bible our "Pope" instead of having the wonderful RC Pope as our Pope - makes it appear that you yourself have chosen the Roman Catholic Pope.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

He contradicts himself constantly. He also acts like his Church gave us the scriptures, although they existed in the Churches long before His Church started teaching false doctrine about talking to dead saints. If he had an ounce of wisdom he would just be quiet, but i guess i'll need to just do that myself. I cant stand his church with their arrogant assertion of authority. I think i'll log out and never log in again.
If i hear one more word from his mouth i'll throw the scriptures in the trash and never again read them. I wish i could forget all memory of this place, but its much too late for that. God help me, i cant stand Christianity anymore.

Make sure you shake the dust off yer feet...........

Matthew 10:14
And whosoever no should be receiving ye, nor-yet should be hearing the words of ye, coming out outside of the house or of the city, that, shake off! the dust/koniorton <2868> of thine feet.

Mark 6:11
And who soever should not be receiving ye, nor should be hearing of-ye, going out thence, shake off! the dust/coun <5522> from underneath thine feet into a testimony to-them.
Amen I say unto ye, it shall be more tolerable to-Sodom or Gomora in a day of judgment than that City". [#5522 used in Revelation 18:19]

Revelation 18:19
And they cast dust/coun <5522> upon their heads and cried-out lamenting and mourning saying "Woe! Woe! the great City, in which are-rich all those having ships in the sea out of her preciousness!
that in one hour She was desolated.

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm
The Destruction Of JERUSALEM

An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY:

.......................... In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings.
Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground.



.

 

[sculleywr]

Campfire flames are particularly prettier to look at by night..........

Now that ya mention it, Revelation shows Jesus with eyes as a flame of fire.

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

LUKE 16:24
"Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham! have mercy on me! and send Lazarus! that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue;
for I am tormented in this flame.' "

First, notice that the rich man identifies Abraham as his father, just as the Pharisees did (John 8:39).
The rich man (Judah) is now shown to be undergoing reproof, testing, and punishment in "this flame" (singular, not "these flames").
It is quite obvious that the flame is not literal, because a wet fingertip on the tongue would do nothing to quench the pain inflicted by real flames..............

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage.
Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!

Reve 1:13
The yet head of Him, and the hairs, white as wool, white as snow.
And the eyes of Him as flame of fire
[Reve 2:18/19:12]

Reve 2:18 And to the Messenger of the Assenbly in Thyatira, write!
'Now-this is saying the Son of the God, the one having the eyes of Him as flame of fire
and the feet of Him likeas burnished copper.'
[Reve 1:13/19:12]

Reve 19:12 The yet eyes of Him *as* a flame of fire
and upon the head of Him diadems many, having a name having been written which no-one has seen except He.
[Reve 1:13/2:18]

[/QUOTE]

Not only that, but God is described as a consuming fire in Scripture, as well. It is this that is theorized by many early Christians to be the cause of the flames in hell, rather than the modern idea that it is punishment of crime. The reason I do not think it is punishment is because, by definition, punishment is intended to correct the actions of the one who endures the punishment. It is theorized that the person who goes to gehenna is burned because his hatred of God causes him to experience God's presence, which is EVERYWHERE, as a flaming fire.

 

[Colter]

He did indeed. But Christ corrected Him stated that the Father's will was the death of Christ and not that Christ lead 12 legions of Angels to defeat the wicked.



The first thing I find on that is "book that originated in Chicago sometime between 1924 and 1955. The authorship remains a matter of speculation...The Urantia Foundation, a U.S.-based non-profit group, first published The Urantia Book in 1955"

That site says "The book's extensive teachings about the history of the world include its physical development about 4.5 billion years ago, the gradual changes in conditions that allowed life to develop, and long ages of organic evolution that started with microscopic marine life and led to plant and animal life in the oceans, later on land. The emergence of humans is presented as having occurred about a million years ago from a branch of superior primates originating from a lemur ancestor. The first humans are said to have been male and female twins called Andon and Fonta, born "993,419 years prior to 1934."[73][74]"

Which of course would be the sort of "Bible needed" if blind-faith-evolutionism were actually true.

In Ex 20:11 God Himself speaks to the subject of the 7 day creation week - but then we have the "sleeper" of Urantia coming up with Darwinianism "instead". I suggest that the contrast between the two books reveals the opposition in intent and meaning between the two authors.

However at this point we do find some agreement - the religion of evolutionism is much more the religion of Urantia than the Bible.

Indeed it was Gods will for the creator Son to experience all that his created children are to experience in life, death is the final act. So he lived for us, and he laid down his life for us.

You keep repeating the inaccurate statement that evolutionism is a blind faith. It's not blind, it's based on the observations of living and diseased creatures on an old planet. But we haven't found ANYTHING that supports a one time, YEC event.

 

[sculleywr]

Not the EO.

NOT the RCC.

The Jews wrote the Hebrew Bible and canonized it many centuries before either of those two denominations came into existence.

The NT saints in the first century were not waiting 3 or 4 centuries for late converts to christianity to leave paganism and then tell them "what to read".

I think everyone can see this point clearly.



But not against Christ or the true Christians that refused to go into error. As you seem to point out - those who see error in the Orthodox Churches and in the RCC - as it was piling in during the dark ages - cannot possibly argue that they were doctrinaly pure at that time -- or even to this very day.

==========
This thread is not about the dead-end argument over the Hebrew Bible - an argument that goes nowhere because the Hebrew Bible text is not authored by Catholics and no Jew was waiting for Catholics to tell them what it is - and it is the same today as it was in Christ's day -- the same text content as what we find in the Protestant Bible.

The dead-end argument over the NT text also goes nowhere since both Catholics and Protestants have the same text.

That only leaves the dead-end argument over the Jewish Apocrypha which the Jews do not include in their Canon - and which even the Catholic Jerome rejected when translating the text to create the Vulgate Bible.

How many ways are there to circle back to a dead-end??

repeating your inaccurate historical fiction does not transform it into truth It just winds you up on the ignore list. Now, either prove that there weren't multiple canons of Scripture,and explain the absence of Baruch from your canon when it is in Josephus's, or wind up on the ignore list as one of the many people who refuse to substantiate their arguments.

 

[sculleywr]

Are you now Roman Catholic?? Do you declare that the Pope is your leader and the authority that you follow without question?



On the contrary - your argument that trust in the Bible makes the Bible our "Pope" instead of having the wonderful RC Pope as our Pope - makes it appear that you yourself have chosen the Roman Catholic Pope.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

No. You are your own pope, because YOU interpret the Bible. That is what the Pope does. He tells you what the Bible means. So instead of him, it is you telling you what the Bible means.

The question is notwhether or not you have an earthly source telling you what Scripture means. The question is whether that source is the Church, the Pope, or your reflection. For me, it is the Church which preexisted and canonized the Scripture. I trust the Church over the Masoretes for the Old Testament, and the Church over the rejecter of Christ Josephus, as well. Oh, did you really think that Josephus, a Pharisee who rejected Christ, had authority over the Church?

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed it was Gods will for the creator Son to experience all that his created children are to experience in life, death is the final act. So he lived for us, and he laid down his life for us.

You keep repeating the inaccurate statement that evolutionism is a blind faith. It's not blind, it's based on the observations of living and diseased creatures on an old planet. But we haven't found ANYTHING that supports a one time, YEC event.

The video in the OP demonstrates "observations in nature" that disprove blind-faith evolutionism's claims but such things arising out of chance and undirected process. Even Dawkins admits to the basic point in 'observation' - which is that "
"biology is the study of complicated things that appear to have been designed for a purpose.”
The Blind Watchmaker, 1996, p. 1."

Evidence for design - that you probably still have not 'allowed yourself' to observe. Hence the religious nature of the argument for evolutionism - exposed again.

Not only this - but the religious argument that "amoebas will sure-enough turn into horses given sufficiently talented amoebas and a sufficiently long and talented period of time filled with improbable just-so stories" is not remotely an "observation in nature" it is 'wishful thinking' and "gross story telling about what single-celled animals are imagined to do over time".

What is more - we have 50,000 generations of bacteria proving that after that much "evolution" they REMAIN - bacteria.

50,000 generations of humans would cover more than 2,000,000 years! And stories say that humans evolved --came into being-- supposedly in less than 1 TENTH of that time!! Yet bacteria DO NOT when it comes to REAL OBSERVATIONS in nature - turn into single-celled eukaryotes over TEN TIMES that number of generations!! Rather "observations in nature" SHOW that they REMAIN "bacteria".

As I said before the - best text book you have for the religion of evolutionism - is Urantia-- not the Bible. This is irrefutable.

 

[BobRyan]

No. You are your own pope, No. You are your own pope, because YOU interpret the Bible. ?

oh come on -- I bet you say that to everyone.

Here is how Christ taught us to do it --

Mark 7:6-13 -- is this a case where you see Christ in "error"??

Christ's doctrine on "sola scriptura testing" - resulted in hammering the traditions of the Jewish magisterium of His day and promoting the authority of the Word of God - yes even as found in the Ten Commandments.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture

 

[Commander Xenophon]

Fact-check: St. Jerome did not "reject" the Apocrypha. He expressed a personal opinion, one which he and any Orthodox is allowed to have, as to their importance, which he personally doubted, but following the instructions of the Roman archbishop, who had asked him to translate these books, he faithfully set his opinion aside and translated them, which is why the Vulgate has them. Many Protestants also love and value these books; the King James Version included the Apocrypha and the Anglicans have always read from it.

 

[BobRyan]

The question is notwhether or not you have an earthly source telling you what Scripture means.

More bible please - less making-stuff-up.

1 John 2
As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.